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Hey guys over the last 3 years I have firmly planted myself in as key center approach improviser due to how I hear music functionally... I am a slave to my ears. So recently I have been working on some tunes where I hear a chord in they key of the tune but I don't know what scale to fit with that chord. So for example the tune What a Wonderful World its firmly in the key of F and it goes to Db7... the bVI7 and when I just play the chromatic scale over this the notes that sound good to me are in the key of F 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7... now when I tried to find out what scale that was in the key of F that was the 6th mode of the Melodic Minor scale.
Is there a name for this approach... Is it just called the key center approach?
Its really important to me to hear the scale degrees in my mind while I play them... so even when I'm playing over this Db7 in this context I'm still thinking in the key of F because when i play melodies I hear the solfege in my mind. Do Re May Fa Say Lay Tay... I haven't been taking lessons for many many years and kind of developed this way of doing things to work around my inability of my ears to modulate easily.
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10-25-2018 02:32 AM
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The term you're looking for is probably "modal interchange". A different mode is being applied to the key center of the tune.
I basically do what you do, except I almost quit thinking in scales (especially I don't bother thinking of modes except within a modal context). When I "zoom out" and look at the big picture, I think of the tune (if appropriate) in terms of tonal centers and it's scale and scale degrees. When I "zoom in" and try to outline functional harmony, I try to think in chords (mainly triads) and certain key notes.
One thing that helped me connect these two layers on an intuitive basis was to sing melodies and try to hear notes from different "angles". For instance I'd sing "When the saints go marchin in" and try to hear...
{ 1 3 4 | 5 | 1 3 4 | 5 | 1 3 4 | 5 3 1 3 } of 1 (tonic) { 5 } of 5 (dominant) which is the { 2 } of 1
This helped me a great deal with being able to hear what's going on harmonically in terms of the tonal center as well as the given chord.
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Btw the bVI7 is a b*tch. You could start out practicing this by isolating a couple of bars and first change the Db7 to a Dbmaj7. If you're like me, you'll find this way easier to work with (can also be found in tunes like "How High the Moon"). Once you feel comfortable with that, change the maj7 to a 7. Work on only ingraining this specific note. Focus on Cb (or B if you will) and try to make it sound "right".
Once you got that down, playing certain structures (Db7, Db, Ab-, Fm7b5 etc.) will be easy.
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YES! That is exactly how I hear When the Saints Go Marching In
Is this method common? Are there books on it... I have some google searching to do :-) Thanks for the great answer and if there are any other users of this method I would love to hear from you.
Stoked right now :-)Last edited by tonejunkie; 10-25-2018 at 08:55 AM.
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F G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb
Db7
Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
parent scale
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G - Ab melodic minor
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I don't read very well at all and don't think of note names while I play as far as chord to chord only in scale degrees in the key center... If this is a common way to do things it may be harder for me due to not being able to see a scale spelling like what bako showed and immediately know the scale.
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Hey man, here's maybe a bit more old school way to think of it:
It's not really a twist. the Db7 is derived from the Ab diminished (the biii diminished chord).
The biii diminished chord is a really cool old school chord that pulls to the I or the ii.
The 4 derivative dominant chords have the same function.
So, Ab B D F give us G7, Bb7, Db7, and E7
Try those scales and arps on that chord...maybe you'll like it, maybe not; I do
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Not sure if it's common, but my former teacher, Allan Praskin, who's an outstanding alto player btw, used to say stuff like "...and then it goes to the V and the melody goes to the 9th of the chord, which is the 6th of the tonic.". He never really talked about concepts, but this got me started..
Originally Posted by tonejunkie
YES! That is exactly how I hear When the Saints Go Marching In
Is this method common? Are there books on it... I have some google searching to do :-) Thanks for the great answer and if there are any other users of this method I would love to hear from you.
Stoked right now :-)
I think I'd prefer personal exploration over a book. I'm planning on going further with this by applying it step by step to more complex tunes. Is there anything in particular you're interested in learning?
We could think of a list of tunes that'd make sense to go through and build this skill together if you like.
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I generally feel (and this in no way speaks to you, OP, as I haven't heard you play) that the key center approach--while it looks like a simplification, is actually a more advanced way of looking at things--one that can work but it's dicey for folks starting out.
I think there's danger in beginners taking this approach as it could lead to meandering...I mean, one of the most basic things that makes jazz "jazz" is the ability to hear the harmony of a tune in a solo, even without backing...
I always go back to Lee Konitz's "layers" or "circles." Starting with the melody, then embellishments, then the chords themselves, then grouping the chords, moving out further and further...So a key center approach might sit in an outer layer...great stuff, if used with the knowledge of the more "micro" stuff as well...
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I agree... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Take a song like All The Things You Are, you're one key center approach would be really difficult (at least for me) to pull off. Even if I broke that tune into multiple key centers or into chord scale theory, it would still be a lot of thinking I'd have to do.
For me, it's just easier to forget about keys or scales and just play to the chords (I play solos to or over chord grips and mostly just follow the same positions and chords that I use when comping the tune). I know the intervals of those chords and I think for me it makes a much easier ear to guitar connection. It's much more organized/compartmentalized that way.
This chord grip approach can really bring in much more chromaticism as one fills in the gaps between the chord tones using approach tones and enclosures etc. which is part of the jazz vocabulary. To be simple, I just think of it as filling in the gaps.
This is so much more simplified that I consider it a beginner approach (although advanced players do it also).
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Agreed.
But to go back to the OP, I suppose it all comes down to what helps you navigate the tune better...
To me, it's much easier to just think of that Db as a borrowed chord, or a temporary trip to a new "key center" as opposed to trying to link it to "F" (the "home key" of the song) in some way...but that's just me.
A tune like "World," a pretty ballad, slow harmonic movement...I might treat every chord as it's own thing, even. I find key center thinking really comes in handy when things are moving by quicker...
But then again, I've said here recently, more and more my modus operandi seems to be to try to simplify the complex, and then complexify the simple...
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What Mr B said for me as well. Originally Posted by tonejunkie
For modes of melodic minor, it's honestly easiest long-term to start thinking about them in terms of the chord of the moment rather than only of the parent scale. You are somewhat converting twice by naming it from the root of the original key of the toon.
I think it's best to start from the chord as Mr. B talked about. The parent scale helps at first , but that scale from the root of Db, is Db Lydian dominant. Anyway, the name Lydian dominant lets you know that it's a Dominant context. Mixolydian#4
So, it's very similar to vanilla dominant in both name and sound.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-25-2018 at 01:31 PM.
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I see your point, but I think this approach will result in a very different harmonic language. Originally Posted by fep
I might be the only one, but I hear and therefore think of All the Things as...
{ I- IV- } in F { V7 Imaj7 IVmaj7 } in Ab { V7 Imaj7 } in C
F-7 sounds kinda wrong to me - weither you think of it just as the isolated chord, or as VI of Ab. What I hear is that the tonal center shifts from F- to Ab to C on the A section. I couldn't make it sound like that if I thought differently. But to me also a 9th on a III-7 sounds wrong (if I don't feel it's being played very thoughtfully and almost like a reharmonization) in most cases, lot's of times a Imaj7 won't sound right to me depending on the melody etc. etc.
Don't get me wrong - it's just what it sounds like to me. I'm not saying it IS wrong. Play what you hear/like/feel like
You can still do that by applying little structures to the changes once you "zoom in". Example:This chord grip approach can really bring in much more chromaticism as one fills in the gaps between the chord tones using approach tones and enclosures etc. which is part of the jazz vocabulary. To be simple, I just think of it as filling in the gaps.
When I play Dbmaj7 in the A section of All the Things, I think of it as IV of Ab. I see the Ab major scale pattern and different things pop out: Db triad, Ab triad, F- triad etc.
I know and hear Db is the I of the chord and the IV of the key. I know and hear Ab is the V of the chord and the I of the key. F- will be the III of the chord and the VI of the tonic. I then add chromatic approaches to these structures etc.
This sounds like a lot of thinking, but comes pretty intuitive to me now. Took me couple of years to get there though and I had to isolate parts of tunes and work on them for weeks and months.Last edited by Philidor; 10-25-2018 at 01:40 PM.
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I have tried other methods for years including chord by chord but I have made the most growth with trusting my ears... so if I hear a chord in a certain key center I have to analyze it within that key center. Also you can hear the changes go by with my playing due to using the arpeddios as changes go by and hearing that on the 5 chord the scale degrees 2 4 5 and 7 are the appropriate ones to focus on
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Thanks so much for discussing this with me I don’t get much time to do this with my band due to our rehearsal schedule being so tight and not wanting to talk shop at gigs.
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It's interesting stuff, really-- there's so many ways to skin a cat. What a horrible saying...but I digress...
There's different types of tunes...I could see someone making a key center approach to ATTYA work, because the tune has so much movement...other tunes might stay more or less in a key, maybe with an oddball chord, like Wonderful World...now there, I want to CREATE opportunities for movement...I'm not sure I could make an interesting statement just blowing F major over much of the form, even though those notes are "correct."
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Key center approach doesn't mean to me using only notes of the parent scale - not even predominantly. I never actually checked but my guess is I use pretty much all 12 notes on most songs I play. To me it's just like the frame I look through which will influence the basic choice of notes I make. Then I go deeper and describe the chords in more detail. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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So you are thinking smaller as well...
So we're not really talking about different things, I suppose.
I dunno, it was sounding very Berklee/Mark Levine to me
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I think it's similar yeah. Only a bVI7 chord will have a specially quality within the given key to me, different from a II7 or IV7 even if I decided to think of all of them as 9/#11/13 + I won't consider it a trip to a different tonal center. The scale degree will have an effect on how I play them. And then on another level a chord will sound different depending on the tune I play. A Bb7 in Evidence will sound different than a Bb7 in There Will Never Be Another You even though both are the V chord. But that goes pretty far and is already off topic.
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I've always struggled with jazz solos to be polite. Had an older guy in jazz band back in college in early 70's (he was ancient, probably 33!) that had been playing in LA and a few other towns, mix of gigs and backing studio work, wanted a real job so he was working on a teaching degree.
My instrument was t-bone, and I was fresh out of high school.
He was a trumpeter and his solos just always had heads turning. Fascinating, at times shimmery movements, seemingly very complex.
A couple other horn players tried to talk "shop" with him, asking what key mods and modes he was using. I don't remember exactly his reply but something like this:
"No clue about any of that crap (word substitution there lol) and never heard anyone in a session talking about that.
Song's in a key, right? The notes of the triad of a chord in that key are safe but boring especially tonic and V. Added notes of a jazz chord are still "home" but more interesting, 7, 9, flat something. If you're gonna stay more than passing on a tone, they're good.
Then you got passing tones along the way, they just tie things together and give a feel of melody. Notes on the scale of the song outside the current chord are fine, but altered notes (flat or sharp) stick out more. Can either make or break "cool". Risky.
Sometimes a song modulates to another key for a bar or more, but then, that's the key for that bar.
It's in getting a feel of when to use chord, outside in-key, or altered tones in passing that give interest to your phrase. And when you can do a lick with a long held altered note made to sound hot, well ... that's cooking. Ain't none of you guys got the least notion how to cook though so you sound like dung."
The band prof was a bit of a precise musical theory person and was very critical of the trumpeter's approach and attitude. Trumpeter ... surprisingly I know! ... didn't give a crap about director's comments.
Another notably Precise Theory type prof had for a while been the "licorice stick" on his clarinet in a 5 piece jazz combo in New England to NYC in the 50's. He just smiled when asked and said he pretty much agreed with the trumpeter as far as when playing. And added, he would still expect us to be able to dissect performances in recording as to modes and scale alterations used by the performers.
But even with all his incredible knowledge of theory, when playing he thought he probably did the same process. Got to hear the two together one time for a couple tunes. I ain't never gonna sound like that on anything.
But, for a while on t-bone, I didn't suck as bad as I had.
On guitar ... I'm sticking with chord/melody.
But I love the discussions of jazz solo thinking ...
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tonejunkie -
As mr. beaumont said, I think you're making life difficult for yourself.
Assuming the piece hasn't actually modulated into a different key...
Non-diatonic chords generally take the Lydian approach. So the Db7 would be played as Db Lydian Dominant which is Ab melodic minor (as someone has already said) and DbM7 would take Db Lydian which is Ab major.
Trying to think in terms of F major is really a very long way round a pretty simple thing. Which, to put it even more simply, is to play off the 5th - which for Db is Ab.
So you could be in any key you choose and see a non-diatonic dominant or major, head for the 5th and you're there.
(Not the only option but technically perfectly sound)
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A fun real time key centered exercise that I like to do:
Play a tune over a drone or rhythmic pedal tone vamp:
All harmonic movements are heard in reference to the single note.
This can get weird but also interesting in a tune like Body And Soul with it's modulation Db to D.
As strange as it sounds to play in D over a Db note, it adds a perspective to hear the modulation
in relation to key center prime.Last edited by bako; 10-25-2018 at 09:07 PM.
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Incidentally, if you're wondering what happened to minor chords, there is a 'Lydian' Dorian mode too, which is the Dorian#4 (or Dorian #11). Normally you'd just play Dorian but you could sharpen the 4. That gives you the harmonic minor scale off the 5th.
So, for Dbm7, play Ab harmonic minor. It's a fairly exotic sound but it's quite nice if you position the notes right :-)
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By the way, that Db in "Wonderful World"...b7? Really?
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What measure guys?. I see a Db but not Db7.
Anyway, it looks like the above discussion touched on key center, function, and chord scale. In a nutshell what were the conclusions for each, if any?
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