-
Thanks. I can appreciate that the Fm is F aeolian. Four flats.
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
I understand. Reg uses shorthand a lot though.
So a phrase like "Parallel "F" Min. Key Center, Which has a V-7 chord, C-7 aeolian."
can be interpreted as:
"Parallel "F" Min. Key Center, Which has a V-7 chord, C-7 aeolian, as long as the F minor we're talking about is aeolian/natural minor, as opposed to melodic and harmonic minor, in which case the V chord would be V7"
Is the V chord in F aeolian also labelled as aeolian because it's from F aeolian? If that's the case, then I get it.
I had thought that an aeolian chord referred the the VI of a major key. So that Cm7 aeolian referred to a chord from Ebmaj - three flats.
I never studied this formally, so I appreciate the help.
-
10-30-2018 01:34 AM
-
Ragman is correct. It's Db major, not Db7....don't believe the Real Book in this case. I've listened and played the tune a lot and it really miscasts the mood of the tune by using Db7.
Db major is simply bVI major in F. It's somewhat common in major keys. You hear it a lot in pop music. The F minor talk is to justify a parallel minor borrowing... borrowing can explain many things in theory.
-
I can not be more clear than in previous post. I meant the first clip from your post, the one with lyrics, time is when Db chord ocures. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
His word was, in his above post, that he was joking. Originally Posted by ragman1
BTW, I also hear plain Db, with major lines played over. It's just that for duration of the bar guitar plays "broken chord" 2 times, differently. First time, comparably, it has a higher note on top. I wonder, what note is that one and are the rest of the notes the same. ...pom - pum - pam - pim - pam - pum ...
Still, in my version, which I made from memory, I will continue with "wholetone over dominant" reference. Wonderful world - I love fairy tales.
-
I know. Sorry, Vladan, late night nonsense Originally Posted by Vladan
-
It's an augmented sixth
This chord has been around since the 1700s. My derivation of this chord is different from Rick's (comes from Gjerdingen)
It's most common in a minor key - that's where it's from, a modification of the basic minor modality to create movement into the V chord when using harmony based on a descending bassline. All examples in C major.
Cm Gm/Bb Fm/Ab G G7/F Cm/Eb Do Cm
Cm Gm/Bb Ab7 (no 5) G G7/F Cm/Eb Do Cm
The second sounds like Mozart, right?
Difference between Fm/Ab and Ab7 is one note:
Fm/Ab = Ab C F
(F is a normal sixth, right?)
Ab7 (no 5) = Ab C F#
(the F# is an augmented sixth not a flat seventh, if we spell the F# as a Gb, we have a minor seventh and dominant seventh chord, right?)
Later, used in parallel major in C by modal interchange.
Thing is this chord can resolve to either V (as above) or I - so to some extent the augmented sixth is just a altered IVm chord.
So, WTF has this got to do with jazz?
Well it's really common in standards. Perhaps equally as common as regular secondary dominant on a diatonic root - like II7 or III7.
Note that - OF COURSE - we might think of the Ab7 as a tritone sub for D7 - the secondary dominant for G7. This chord is reasonably common in both major and minor, but I see bVI7 more frequently.
Skylark B section
Bernies Tune
Blue Drag (Django's version)
Out of Nowhere
Just Friends
Lullaby of the Leaves
Mood Indigo
I'm Beginning to See the Light
Nuages
Darn That Dream
etc etc
If we add an extension to this chord it is normally a #11 (French sixth for harmony nerds)
Why it is not a tritone sub of II7 and how to do a jazz on it
As D7 normally takes lydian dominant, we could see at is Ab7 altered (A melodic minor) as a tritone - BUT - I don't hear it. So, I do not hear this chord as a simple sub for II7... It's something else. The minor tinge of this chord is important.
As the alteration F# in C gives this rather odd scale which I don't think anyone actually uses
C D E F# G Ab B
In fact this scale is very frequently used in jazz to harmonise a blues b5 in the melody as that note is the b7 of Ab7.
Whole tone is also a very common choice.
The old school jazz practice of turning dominants into minor works well too:
Ab7 Cm as
Ebm Cm - which is a fairly obvious II V relationship and a common relationship in jazz (minor third/dim symmetry/brothers and sisters
Ab7 C
Ebm C
Phew got the point eventually.
TL;DR
What Matt said
-
Listening to Louis....
It's a Dbmaj7.
But the bVI7 is still a really common chord, you'll come across it time and time again if you learn lots of songs.
-
Course it is... C to Ab... common as muck, mate
-
My mistake... yes Cmin... would be Cphrygian which implies Dbmaj. Lydian...
But I was trying to give approach for filling out the Db as Db7... same result when filling in the extended chord tones.... If you want Maj.... Dbmaj... Lydian or if you want Db7 Db7#11 or Lyd. Dom.
Was trying to help use Key center approach for Db7 ... tunes from late 60's so could be any organization.
I would imagine... pretty straight, maybe even just triad. But still was an approach being used in 60's for filling in extensions.... Personally I would hear as Db7 / C7sus C7.... ( G-7 C7). The tune hangs in tonic and sub dominant and finally deceptively gets to Dominant....
The tune is cool but pretty straight... melody is almost Old MC D had a farm with V chord bridge... so a little better. If you played the tune... more than just singing the melody and basically soloing with same melody with some embellishment.... I'm pretty sure there might be a little more going on with the harmony... the changes....Add some chord patterns.... or something.
There are some problems using key centers... How to organize non diatonic chords and chord patterns, without modulating etc... But it obviously works...
-
Little piece of personal trivia ... Originally Posted by ragman1
I know. Sorry, Vladan, late night nonsense
My introductory post to this forum, years ago, was with .pdf attachment.
That .pdf contained 3 versions of chords for What A Wonderful World, one Jazzy, one Campfire and one Punk.
I wanted to let people "know my level", what kind of "musician" they are to deal with.
I do not remember what exactly chords I used and .pdf is long lost btw PCs and HDs, but I remember someone said I was on the right track, judged by how I use 79 chords.
-
Captain's Log, Stardate 28.1.2018. We have discovered a strange chord in an otherwise traditionally constructed jazz classic song. There is some consternation concerning its origin. At this point in time it is not considered a threat.
Captain's Log, Stardate 30.1.2018. The strange chord continues to create consternation among the crew. I have consulted Mr. Spock who says it would not be logical to relax our guard as there is always the danger of mutation...
-
' Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks for following up with that. But, I'm still trying to make sense of the original point.
So your in Fmaj. Key Center area.... in Bar 5 you move to Parallel "F" Min. Key Center, Which has a V-7 chord, C-7 aeolian.
Now the Db7 is the tritone sub of G7 or V7 of C-7 aeolian.... In the Key Center of Fmin. The G7 is a secondary V7 chord of a diatonic chord of Fmin. Aeolian...F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F....that is the diatonic scale, F aeolian. .
Cm7 phrygian comes out of Fm -- four flats. There is no G7 in four flats. There is no B and no D, only Bb and Db. The V chord (if I even understand how to identify a V chord in C phrygian) is G Bb Db F. Gm7b5. So, are we taking a tritone sub from Gm7b5 and ending up with Db7 (Db F Ab B)? I thought the idea of a tritone sub was to exchange the 3 and 7 (to 7 and 3 of the tritone). What am I missing?
Given all that, do we still consider that G7 is "a secondary V7 of a diatonic chord of Fm Aeolian"? I guess I don't understand what this means. Which diatonic chord? Do we consider G7 a secondary V7 of Cm7?
And then, even after I get all this straightened out in my mind, does it actually tell me anything more than "approach from a half step above, after a Dm and heading toward a Gm7/C, could be Db, Db7 or Dbmaj7"?
-
G7 is a secondary dominant of C7 in both F major and F minor. Secondary dominants have an out of key note.
And yes, Db7 i also a sub for G7. Remember, there four forms of F minor , not just Aeolian. Thus F minor options really = F G Ab Bb C Db D Eb E
Anyways, the verse is in F Major and they play a Db maj add 2 type chord in bar 5.
I wouldn't worry about the parallel minors of F major (notice I used the plural of minor).
-
Kenny Werner's most beautiful harmonization of WAWW... my favorite take on it , ever.
-
TBH I think you may be overthinking it. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Bottom line Db7 --> F. Practice it. It comes up.
-
-
Rp...is the example.... I was implying... that after the borrowed or how ever you choose to come up with the Db7... I don't really care what the actual chord should be or was..... who actually plays the basic chords anyway. I mean playing jazz is not a written tradition where you play what's notated over and over.... sorry anyway... the op was asking about Db7.... and was trying to find a way to use Key center approach for filling in the notes..... the extensions of Db7. Not a 1/2 or whole step
So.... Fmaj as key center... buy calling the Db7 a sub of G7. The G7 is a secondary dominant. A V7 of a Diatonic chord from Fmaj.... C7 is the diatonic chord. Secondary Dominants are from traditional theory and Harmony. Very common practice of expanding and embellishing diatonic harmony .... so you would use the Db7, the sub of that implied Secondary V7 chord, G7.
Again this is a way to keep the same Key center.... you could also use borrowing and parallel relationships... or as Christian brought up... Aug. 6th chords, Neapolitan... chromatically altered inverted subdominant chords.... really.... anyway By just adding the diatonic extensions to the Sub V or Db7.... your still keeping F as your key center... F-.
I don't think or hear that way... I don't think using melodic guidelines to create harmony either.... I can and when I was young etc... was taught those and other somewhat simple approaches for filling in notes with a Target organization. That being the organization is the approach, in a vacumn... as compared to the approach being the result of the harmonic organization.
So if you don't get it who cares.... you already have your approach, it works for you, that's cool. The OP was looking for a system of organization that is developed from key Centers.... With out expanding Key center approach your basically stuck in major guidelines.... Maj/min functional organization.
I can hear and perform in that style... or using that organization.... But I personally don't like it as the only organization.... No right or wrong.... just personal choice.
You ever just notate music out and visually see relationships while you hear them....
-
Yeah I'm not sure how relevant the info I posted was. I have an interest in the historical aspect of things - how the musical language we use today came to be codified and how the understanding shifted over the years, in combination with listening to the evolution of music with a curious ear.
I also see that this info would not be interesting or relevant to many musicians who just want to get on with it playing music in the here and now.
(Secondly - bVI7 I is at least as common as bVI7 V7. I don't see the first case as a secondary dominant.... but in practice, you just practice hearing and playing the resolutions. Out of Nowhere, for instance. Whatever you CALL that - you need to practice BOTH.)
Anyway, all that being as it may, in practice I tend to hear Db7 in F as a lydian dominant chord unless I'm really making a thing of it, and the G7 in minor suits an altered tonality, so there you go. OTOH the G7 in major again sounds lydian dominant.
To me that kind of suggests it all goes back to the whole tone scale, but that's one for another day.
Reg, may I ask specifically what notes you mean when you say diatonic extensions for the Db7 in F?
-
I have an approach -- and a backlog of things to work on to further the approach I'm taking. Originally Posted by Reg
For me, trying to understand this -- it may sound funny -- but it's out of respect for the players on here who seem to know, and use, something I don't know -- and sound great. I may not need a new approach, but I'm always trying to understand how other people go about playing jazz.
I don't think I understand the question about seeing relationships while I hear them. I can play things easily that I can't name very easily. So, for example, if somebody plays a line I can usually imitate it, if it's not overly difficult, but I'd have to go back and think about my fingers in order to write down the notes. So, in that sense, I can visualize, on the guitar, what I'm hearing. I can also read a line of music and hear it, more or less, in my mind. I didn't intend any of this. It just happened.
The tritone approach you described is pretty much how I do it. Dm heading to Gsomething ... and a Dbsomething in between. Tritone.
-
Hey rp... cool
Christian.... Diatonic of Fmaj is ... or diatonic of parallel Min is....
Take the scale where each chord is from.... and fill in the notes , the extensions of Db7....yea Db F Ab Cb.... and add 9th, 11th and 13th from scale of Key center.... Fmaj Ionian or F- aeolian... or MI to whatever you choose. I was keeping it straight... Maj/min functional reference.... Maj is Ionian and Min is aeolian with dominant adjustments HM.
Notate them all out.... ex. Fmaj.... take any and all chords.... fill in their extensions from that Key Center... "F" maj and see what chords you come up with.
Ab-7.... Ab Cb Eb Gb add extensions from Fmaj Ionian Bb D and F... you get Ab-7 ...9, #11 13 4th degree HM scale (Eb HM)
Ab Bb Cb D Eb F Gb... Rt, 9 b3 #11 5 13 b7
Now use Fmin. Aeol.... again Ab Cb Eb Gb add extensions from Fmin. Bb (Db) and F.... you get Dorian
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb... Rt 9 b3 11 5 13 b7
I had to do all this type of BS when I was a Kid... you do end up with a collection of common practice relationships.... all based on using Key Centers for filling in the blanks.
-
The OP talked about having the key of F remain in his mind even while the chord was Db7.
It seems to me this is akin to hearing the original key as you play a iii VI ii V I.
The iii VI could suggest that you're in the key of the II, but it doesn't. You still hear the gravity of the original I.
I think it's the same for this Db in Wonderful World. It's a slight detour on the way to Fmaj, but it doesn't suggest a new key.
If I understand the content of this thread, a Dbmaj7 can be derived from a commonplace modal interchange.
But, Db7 requires a different derivation -- namely as a tritone.
I've used the tritone idea to find substitutions for a very long time, and it works reliably.
I'm new to modal interchange as a way to generate ideas. So far, it seems like the theory can generate of lot of possibilities, some of which sound good and some of which don't. So, it still seems like I have to learn (as always) the sounds one at a time, encode them in memory by sound and with enough theory to find them in a hurry. Apparently the modal interchange or borrowing theory helps some players with that process.
Reply With Quote
Grant Green, What is This Thing
Yesterday, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading