The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Is this what you mean ?




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    Or this ?




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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Don't get lost in the forest looking at one or two trees when your trying to understand the forest.

    There are many approaches, both theoretical and just plain good old boy or girl ears... As good or lousy as they may be.

    If your trying to understand something "musical".... sometimes it helps to not be so hard headed and locked into your personal views and use what one personally believes sounds good as the means of making musical choices for what works....

    If you don't know about something.... your usually not going to worry about it. The old Thomas Gray's... Ignorance is Bliss.

    Getting back to the Forrest reference.... when you perform a tune... generally your playing the complete tune.... So when you decide...however you decide, what sounds best etc... it generally works much better when you keep the same musical organization for what you believe sounds best... throughout the tune.... and when you mix organizational reasoning for making musical choices of how to mix your choices.... even when just using your ears, you also try and have organization.

    And higher powers forbid, actually use.... musical organization(s) that might be based on analysis and common practice of the music you might be trying to perform or understand... skip that BS... If you at least expand.... expand your ear understandings... try and be aware of a few more TREES.... oops, a few more bars, a section, maybe even a few tunes.. you can come up with a... wait.... a..... REFERENCE...... for letting your ears make choices. Like... hey I recognize that sound, or I recognize that melodic or harmonic phrase or passage..... But be careful, you might look up and your making an analysis.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Maybe the melody came first?
    OK, melody came first, but at that spot, why is it harmonized with Db chord, as opposed to Dmin, F, Bb, .... and so on ... ?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    OK, melody came first, but at that spot, why is it harmonized with Db chord, as opposed to Dmin, F, Bb, .... and so on ... ?
    It could have been any of those, I suppose...but the melody note is the maj3 of the Db...pretty damn strong choice.

  6. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    OK, melody came first, but at that spot, why is it harmonized with Db chord, as opposed to Dmin, F, Bb, .... and so on ... ?
    Because it sounds good,.... and because the lyric and form kind of require something there.
    "I see...
    I see..."

    Then... "And I think to myself"

    Goes beyond cold observation... to MEANING etc. It's what the whole thing is about. We all see the same things, but do we really "see" them?

    It's a God chord, ...or a consciousness chord... yada yada. :-)

    The tune is syrupy sweet enough as it is, without that one "out" chord, it wouldn't have ANYTHING.

  7. #56

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    I think it's modal interchange with minor, a common practice for centuries, right? So, F major to F minor.

    And it's not VI it's bVI. VI in F minor is Ddim. (from melodic minor)

    The reason for the chord, like someone said above, is that it sounds really good right there in the melody/form.

    Chord scale follows from there.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 10-28-2018 at 12:58 PM.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    It could have been any of those, I suppose...but the melody note is the maj3 of the Db...pretty damn strong choice.
    And that Db xame from ...?

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Because it sounds good,.... and because the lyric and form kind of require something there.
    "I see...
    I see..."

    Then... "And I think to myself"

    Goes beyond cold observation... to MEANING etc. It's what the whole thing is about. We all see the same things, but do we really "see" them?

    It's a God chord, ...or a consciousness chord... yada yada. :-)

    The tune is syrupy sweet enough as it is, without that one "out" chord, it wouldn't have ANYTHING.
    Matt, what you are saying in response to my quoted pist, I already said couple of posts before that quoted one. I used quite less words, though. Instead of quoting lyrics and being .... I said "drama".
    "Because it sounds good" means nothing. The question is: why it sounds good and where it came from?

  10. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    And that Db xame from ...?
    Parallel minor. It's like subbing IV-6 or II-7b5 from minor.

    bVI is a great subdominant sub from minor. Also makes for good jazz endings with that root melody note as its 3rd.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    And that Db xame from ...?
    A half step below?

    Edit, sorry, I'm talking the melody note.

    The Db came from a half step ABOVE

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I think it's modal interchange with minor, a common practice for centuries, right? So, F major to F minor.

    And it's not VI it's bVI. VI in F minor is Ddim. (from melodic minor)

    The reason for the chord, like someone said above, is that it sounds really good right there in the melody/form.

    Chord scale follows from there.
    As per convention, It's name is bVI, relative to major scale, but it most definetly is the 6th chord in minor, counting from tonic.

    Ddim is Db7b9, so there.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    As per convention, It's name is bVI, relative to major scale, but it most definetly is the 6th chord in minor, counting from tonic.

    Ddim is Db7b9, so there.

    Hmmmm. Well it could be said to be relative to minor as well because all three minor modes are harmonized (Mel. Minor being the point).

    The sixth chord in minor needn't be flat. The bVI tells you what note the root is built from, absent convention.

  14. #63

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    Find-able in five seconds. See all references to this chord, its history and usage:

    Borrowed chord - Wikipedia

  15. #64

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    It sounds a bit like the coda on
    Lil Darlin

    In F

    Ebmin11 , Dmin7 , Db7 , C11 , F69
    Nice !

    X6869x
    X5756x
    X46464
    8x876x
    Xx7788
    Last edited by pingu; 10-28-2018 at 06:39 PM.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Because it sounds good,.... and because the lyric and form kind of require something there.
    "I see...
    I see..."

    Then... "And I think to myself"

    Goes beyond cold observation... to MEANING etc. It's what the whole thing is about. We all see the same things, but do we really "see" them?

    It's a God chord, ...or a consciousness chord... yada yada. :-)

    The tune is syrupy sweet enough as it is, without that one "out" chord, it wouldn't have ANYTHING.
    This! ^

    It's not about function, or borrowing, or harmony so much... it's about meaning, delivering the meaning with the sound of the music. Some sounds, like some colors, make us feel twitchy and anxious, others make us feel relaxed and hopeful. A compulsion to apply labels may yet fail to be any more than descriptive.

    This song starts out as the identical harmony and melody of one of the first songs we all learned back in kindergarten - the "A, B, C" song, but after the first four bars it diverges into a mystical, magical, introspective, reflective, thoughtful, enlightening "side slip" that attracts, captures, and charms the listener's ear, and invokes focus to the meaning of the words through the sound of the music.

    No amount of theory analysis and lingo captures the phenomenological feeling of hearing it, grasping it, and enjoying it. It is a gem of insightful composing because it does not trip over itself trying too hard - its power is that it is such a graceful, simple, and beautiful shift.

    Yes, that one "out" chord is the transcendent heart of the whole tune.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    OK, melody came first, but at that spot, why is it harmonized with Db chord, as opposed to Dmin, F, Bb, .... and so on ... ?
    It is harmonised with Dmin immediately before the Db. I think of that passage as a mini One Note Samba - a static 'F' in the melody supported in this case by Dmin7 (b3), Db (3rd) and Gmin7 (b7).

    This concept can also work well as a means to modulate. A celebrated example occurs at the end of the bridge in ATTYA where we move from Emajor to Ab via a G#/Ab pivot note - Emaj (3rd), C7#5 (#5) to Fmin7 (b3).
    Last edited by PMB; 10-28-2018 at 06:57 PM.

  18. #67

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    Another example that just came to mind is John Lennon's Julia. The opening chorus is almost completely sung on the note 'A' yet the the underlying shifts in harmony trick us into hearing a more active melodic line.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    It is harmonised with Dmin immediately before the Db. I think of that passage as a mini One Note Samba - a static 'F' in the melody supported in this case by Dmin7 (the b3 degree of the scale), Db (the natural 3rd) and Gmin7 (the b7).
    .
    I don't understand this
    Could you clarify a bit ?

  20. #69

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    The melody note stays the same but is inflected by chords that contain that same note. The note 'F' belongs in Dm7, Db and G-7. In One Note Samba, the sequence of 'F' related chords is D-7, Db7, C-11 and B7b5.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    The melody note stays the same but is inflected by chords that contain that same note. The note 'F' belongs in Dm7, Db and G-7. In One Note Samba, the sequence of 'F' related chords is D-7, Db7, C-11 and B7b5.
    Yeah ok got it , thanks

    It's called pedal I think ...
    Your example of one note samba
    is in Bb with the F pedal note yeah ?

    (Wonderful world is F tonic pedal)

    Is that right ?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Yeah ok got it , thanks

    It's called pedal I think ...
    Your example of one note samba
    is in Bb with the F pedal note yeah ?

    (Wonderful world is F tonic pedal)

    Is that right ?
    Exactly. The point was not so much its function as a tonic or V pedal but rather how any static note can be inflected harmonically to give it a new lease of life. I agree with Matt's comments in post #55. It's almost like the composers purposefully went for banality in the first 4 bars (diatonically-derived chords, stepwise melodic movement, corny lyrics) to give full weight to the change in bar 5.

  23. #72

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    Yes, without a doubt, it's that Db chord that makes the tune...well...anything. And it was such a damn good choice, it makes the tune a classic.

    That's why I treat it as its own thing...it's a one bar trip to Db, and Lydian always sounds better than major for a major chord that isn't the "I" of the whole tune. But it ain't no passing nothing. It's literally the most important chord in the tune.

  24. #73

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    I'm beginning to understand the borrowed chord theory.

    So, I get that Dbmaj or Dbmaj7 can be seen as borrowed from Fm.

    But, when I play the tune, Db7 works there too. Maybe not as well, but it does work.

    Suppose somebody plays it as Db7. The B note is not in Fm. I can't figure out what the theoretician does with that.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm beginning to understand the borrowed chord theory.

    So, I get that Dbmaj or Dbmaj7 can be seen as borrowed from Fm.

    But, when I play the tune, Db7 works there too. Maybe not as well, but it does work.

    Suppose somebody plays it as Db7. The B note is not in Fm. I can't figure out what the theoretician does with that.
    Maybe the B comes from Fdim

    Dbmaj7 = Db F Ab C
    Fm = F Ab C
    Dbma7 = Fm/Db

    Db(7) = Db F Ab B
    Fdim = F Ab B
    Db(7) = Fdim/Db

  26. #75
    Lydian dominant for non-scale-tone dominants is traditional, in the same way that Lydian is for non-scale-tone major chords. Lydian dominant references tritone sub relationship. So, the Db7 works like G7 there.

    Tritone of a secondary dominant if you like.