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Who cares what you see, what do you hear?
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10-25-2018 07:54 PM
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Huh? I thought that you more or less asked the same question two posts up.
Regardless, I'm asking about the chart, the composition. From what I see there is no Db7 throughout.
Db or Db7, what are your assessments of key center, function, and chord scale? It's a musical question Jeff. Or are you playing a game?
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Bar 5 was it? I don't hear Db7 but Db sounds nice. I'll call the key center F (still), and function bVI.
But that's just me.
Chord scale?
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Oh, right! I've just caught up with the thread...
Wonderful World in F... has the Db in it. Of course it's a major. Every recording sounds major (esp Louis) but the Real Book thingy says Db7. Forget that.
So, whatddya do?
Right, Db Lydian.
It's done. Move along now. Nothing to see...
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Why Db Lydian? Because you're still in F, it hasn't modulated into Db.
Because Db Lydian (Ab major) gives the natural G, not Gb/F#.
Try it both ways. You'll see. Simples.
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I haven't listened to every single recording or anything, but Db7#11 certainly works. bVI7 is often dominant as well.
It's a different chart with a variation? Blues it out a little. Who cares?
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The Db chord is Dbmaj7 ("And I think to myself")
The move is Dm7 to Dbmaj7
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Thanks Pauln.
So in that case the modal interchange (as someone mentioned above) is F major to F minor (as opposed to F Harmonic Minor or Phrygian) and the chord scale is Db Lydian, as Ragman said?
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I was definitely being lazy and did not take the tune off the record... I just got a chart online. I will listen closely tomorrow but it sound like its not a Db7 on the original recording... thanks for clearing that up! This discussion has been really helpful for me! Thanks everyone :-)
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Here is a recording of the stuff I do... if your interested. I'm on a 4 month hiatus till January from gigging to work on my straight ahead playing and writing some new tunes. Just pushin' that rock as far as I can :-)
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
I know what those labels mean but I don't think of them or other named things when playing, having always played exclusively by ear. I feel kind of less than genuine answering musical questions using labels I myself don't employ to grasp music.
That said, I think the idea of modal interchange may be meant to reference local change (as in a borrowed chord from a different key), rather than global change (as in a borrowed key... like a modulation).
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Just having a little fun...as it changes the "modal" outlook...but really it's such a simple thing. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
But definitely maj7#11 for me on that chord (or just a nice fat major triad)...it's the prettiest change of the tune!
So I'd think Db lydian...but really, I'd never think "lydian," but I'd go after the sounds that access it...
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Yea there is nothing wrong with any approach if it works.... even if it doesn't... it's just music.
What can happen is .... your ears and understandings get better. So your key center approach becomes expanded.
Key center is just defining a tonal reference.... so when you play... start creating relationships....that Db etc... you have a Reference for that sound to work within.
Your vid was cool, thanks for posting, catchy. So I'm a walking music theory book.... I can basically theoretically get into any musical discussion and have a great time etc... But I can also walk on stage, or studio and sight read any chart.... and actually understand what the music implies musically... not just the notes. Which can be useful.... or I can just play by ear... live etc... You obviously can't perform a notated out complex part without knowing what it is.... that's where charts come into play.... I'm nobody... just a jazz player etc...
Long story short.... key center approach, doesn't cover everything, unless you know everything. When you need to rehearse or pound sounds into your head so they fit into your key center approach... what are you doing.... teaching your ears what sounds right or wrong, good or bad... are you expanding an existing sound.... or becoming aware of a new one.
If it works cool... but when playing jazz.... it's nice when other players actually hear what I'm saying musically..... or personally, I hear what other musicians are playing and interact with where they're going etc...
What happens when you understand where different Key center sounds come from... your able to expand, react, interact, develop that sound in different directions.... musical directions with common practice organization... We're in the same book... not just on the same page.
Is that Db an embellishment, an approach, borrowed or does it open a different key center. Does it imply anything that will affect a key center or is it the result or effect of a key center.
I'm old... when I was kid gigging with old dudes.... music was vanilla, anything not in that vanilla key center was embellishment, we fit everything into one tonal box.... all key centers were the same... just different references. That includes use of chromatic notes and chords.
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I understand the argument for Db lydian. Makes sense.
But, as I look at these changes, what I am struck by is that the sequence, starting on beat 3 of bar 3, is F A7 Dm7 Db Gm7 C7.
Or, taking out the iim: F A7 Dm7 Db C7.
What one might expect from a tune this old is there would be a G7 in place of that Db. Which makes it look a little like a tritone sub, except it's not a dominant chord.
So, what I'm left with is the idea that this is what I think of as a half-step-up lead-in. Like a false cadence, if I'm using that term correctly. A little half-step-up detour on the way to C7.
Since we're about to end up in F tonal center, I'd be thinking about Gb tonal center over the Db chord. The notes are Gb Ab Bb B C Db Eb F. I bolded the chords in the Db chord (listed as a Db triad in my chart -- I didn't bother to check it with recordings). Discard the B note because that makes it a dominant. The Gb ought to pull nicely toward the F tonal center -- except we're not at the tonic yet - we're heading towards C7. Based on my simple theory, the Gb can still work, but so can the G. When I play it, I prefer the G, but the Gb isn't a clam. And, I can see an argument for avoiding both of them, if I wanted to stay fully inside -- the chord has an F, so Gb can sound clashy -- and the chord has an Ab, so G can sound clashy.
I'm left with Ab Bb Db Eb F - Db pentatonic. Go figure. The chord is a Db triad. Drop every note by a half step and you get G A C D E, which will work nicely against C7 (or keep the Bb) and will sound good against the F tonic too.
So, that would be the core sound. The rest is by ear.
Of course, anybody who has read this far will know enough to check with somebody who knows something about harmony, which I don't claim to. Or, better yet, just try it.
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I do not know what versions you are looking at, but in MY version, at that point, in place of diatonic Gm, instead of standard modulation, or borrowing, whatever, based on G major triad, there is it's b5 sub (tritone) based on Db. Since it's essentially G(dom), Dm7b5 works just fine, just like E7b9 does, or anything of that kind.
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Funny, when I claimed the Db chord was Dbmaj7 I was almost about to add as well that the following chord was certainly NOT a C chord.
It does go through a C chord to get to F, but that C does not sound so much like a 7th, more like an 11th or 13b9. Leave out the Gm, why? It is crucial to prepping for the right kind of C... the Db to C shift is not so much clashy, just very lame sounding (because C is not the destination).
I can't make any sense of your Gb thing... does not sound close to right. If you replace the Db chord with the G7, I guess you are following that with the Gm, then C, right? That misses the whole magic of the song - the Dbmaj7 is the most important chord in this tune.
To me the whole thing is by ear... here is what I notice... see what you think. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I'm sure everyone has noticed the relative relationship between F major and D minor. When looking at what is happening after the Dm7, it makes sense to look at what happens after the relative Fmaj7 at the end of that form segment for clues.
After coming back to the Fmaj7 it goes something like:
Fmaj7 -> Faug (or Aaug) -> Bbmaj7 (or Gm7) -> C11 (or C13b9)
Consider the Aaug as Aaug/G to get the 7th on the bottom... like x 10 11 10 10 x
Play that Fmaj7 -> Aaug/G a few times... notice the F in both chords.
Now go back and play the Dm7 -> Dbmaj7 shift and notice the sustained F in both.
(note that Aaug is also Dbaug)
Now play Dm7 -> Dbmaj7 a few times.
Now play Fmaj7 -> Dbaug a few times.
Now play Fmaj7 -> Aaug/G a few times.
Now compare Dbmaj7 and Aaug/G... these sound like they are functionally interchangeable, so I think the Dbmaj7 sharing the hang over F from Dm7 is a harmonic foreshadow of the hang over F in the Fmaj7 -> Aaug/G shift, which is a nice bit of composing. The shift to Dbmaj7 is an introspective sound ("... and I think to myself...") which is harmonically surprising in spite of carrying through the F note from the previous chord. The similar reflective sound of the Fmaj7 -> Aaug/G has a "family resemblance" to the Dm7 -> Dbmaj7 move, using a different but interchangeable harmony to echo the first mystical chord change of a very simple progression.
So: Both these passages are harmonically "the same" - maybe your ear is hunting for that Aaug/G with the G in on the bottom?
Dm7 -> Dbmaj7 -> Gm7 -> C11 (and I think to myself, it's a )
Fmaj7 -> Aaug/G -> Bbmaj7 -> C11 (beautiful world)
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I wrote that post away from the guitar, but I just tried it. The Db pentatonic sounds good and so does thinking "Gb tonal center", which doesn't mean that you can lean on any note in the Gb scale. The Gb, for example, is usable, but not as a note to lean on. The Db feels to me like a kind of suspension -- in the sense that it strongly wants to resolve towards F. Originally Posted by pauln
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Bloody hell, I'm sure if you asked the bloke who wrote it he'd probably just say 'I put the Db in coz I thought it sounded nice'!
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Db is the VI chord of Fm, the parallel minor of F major.
It has a G natural and not a Gb.
Dbma7 sounds good in both F major and F minor.
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Louis Armstrong's recording sounds like a Db major triad to me.
I confess that I don't understand the logic that says it has a G because it's a VI chord in Fm -- that is, rather than, say, it has a Gb because it's a V chord in Gb (considering it a key change for one bar), or some other formulation.
I'm not disagreeing -- the G sounds a little better than the Gb to me and I understand that it's in Fm. What I don't get is the reasoning behind assuming that the VI chord in Fm is the most helpful way to think about it.
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Parallel minor borrowing is a way to think about it. It is relatively straight forward.What I don't get is the reasoning behind assuming that the VI chord in Fm
is the most helpful way to think about it.
Each person can decide on their own what is the most helpful way to think
about such matters.
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It is probably the best explanation, because t is the simplest and it works. If you hear it as if he wanted to stay in place, for some drama, but still to have something going on ... he was on vi of Fmajor, stayed on VI of F minor ... cool. Immediately gives the chord and scale, nice and clear. Originally Posted by bako
However, to me, that chord does not sound like coming from F minor scale, or from Ab major, not Db lydian.
To me, it is related to G/Db dominants, wholetone scale and some blues (or blue notes, if you prefer).
Other good one is that he wanted some drama, and there's no greater drama than half step. Db minor sounded like crap, so he turned it to Db major
(I have no doubt he heard it in his head , without all the calculation, but whatever).
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Strangely enough it was co-written by John Coltrane’s producer at Impulse, Bob Thiele.
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Maybe the melody came first?
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Is this what you mean ? Originally Posted by tonejunkie
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