Do you use arpeggio shapes, major scale shapes, or something else?

[znerken]

Way fewer 3nps players in jazz as a percentage, compared to heavy metal etc. I know Henry Robinett is a 3nps guy. Used to post here a good bit.

But the question remain the same. So what do you do for your scale system? How do you arrange and link the arpeggios.


What scale system do most jazz players use then though?

[rpjazzguitar]

Warren Nunes refused to use (or let students use) the word "mode".

But, he taught seven "patterns" for the major scale, which were identical to the seven modes.

Apparently, he had memorized them all and could play them in any position. I don't know if he could start them on any note, but I doubt it.

Application was simplified a bit by his teaching that there were only two types of chords. He called them "type 1 and type 2". They corresponded to tonic and dominant. So, Cmaj7, Em7 Gmaj7#11 Am7 were interchangeable. And, Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 and Am7 were also interchangeable. I think he may have had Bm7b5 in that group as well, but I can't specifically recall.

I don't recall him teaching arpeggios as separate from his "patterns" except that he did use triads with great facility. He could stack them in ways which were close to the usual arps.

Notably, his reading was limited to picking notes out in the first position. I'm not even sure he knew all the notes on the fretboard by name. But, he had a workable system and played out of it. He also had big ears and massive chops.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Most people learn to play all diatonic chords in a given position, usually five positions, one position at a time. That's a lot for five positions . For seven positions, it's getting tedious.

A lot of other people organize based on one-octave arpeggios. they're somewhat quicker to learn and don't require as much upfront organization.

The guy I learned from didn't really do the one position at a time thing for arpeggios . He taught 4 inversions of 2 octave arpeggios from the sixth string second finger. They don't lineup to all be in the same position that way. It's a pretty different approach, but I prefer it to a large degree FOR that very reason.

His mindset is basically learn four inversions, and move along quickly toward learning melodic minor and harmonic minor arpeggios and scales as well. You don't want to get bogged down for the rest your life on basic.

Arpeggio practice!
Post#7

[znerken]

Most people learn to play all diatonic chords in a given position, usually five positions, one position at a time. That's a lot for five positions . For seven positions, it's getting tedious.

A lot of other people organize based on one-octave arpeggios. they're somewhat quicker to learn and don't require as much upfront organization.

The guy I learned from didn't really do the one position at a time thing for arpeggios . He taught 4 inversions of 2 octave arpeggios from the sixth string second finger. They don't lineup to all be in the same position that way. It's a pretty different approach, but I prefer it to a large degree FOR that very reason.

His mindset is basically learn four inversions, and move along quickly toward learning melodic minor and harmonic minor arpeggios and scales as well. You don't want to get bogged down for the rest your life on basic.

Arpeggio practice!

So many jazz players use caged? I thought many jazz players used 7 position systems like Leavitt teaches.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So many jazz players use caged? I thought many jazz players used 7 position systems like Leavitt teaches.

Leavitt doesn't teach seven . He teaches five, ....and then, 11 or 12.

[znerken]

Leavitt doesn't teach seven . He teaches five, ....and then, 11 or 12.

I meant based on Leavitt, sorry. I had a session with Sheryl Bailey and she sent me a version of the Leavitt system, but with “two new” positions. They are based upon the others, and was what they teached on Berklee according to her. I found them a little unlogical, so I went for 3 nps instead, as they have a strict rule.. from the name :-)

[Reg]

Here is a system that has the same fingerings, and neck organization.... for everything. From scales to arpeggios or any chord arpeggio... and chords...

The Fingerings are Based on 7 Movable Positions. All the fingerings are based on the 6th string root. That means... your Starting reference for everything on the fretboard.... (which is a six string 12 fret pattern), Uses the 6th string for basic starting reference...

Generally the 2nd finger for roots with 1st finger stretches.... there is a complete BS story why I use this system on mt techniques thread... but is works without complications.... become easy without years of practice....

[vashondan]

Reg, excuse a noobie question but how would one approach the list of fingerings that you provided? Work on one at a time till "mastery"? Thank you!

[znerken]

I looked at the book. So do you have shapes for every type of arpeggio, for every scale pattern?

So in one major scale shape, you would have to remember 7 different shapes?
Attachment 56548




Yes, I do this as well. Great exercise.

I have decided to abandon 3 notes per string, and use this book as a vehicle to relearn these scale patterns, and also learn the arpeggio shapes within each pattern. I already know the pentatonic shapes well(I see these shapes are like caged), so it's just connecting the dots. I will try to connect everything to the standard I am currently practicing. Play the melody in all the patterns, play the arpeggios from the standard in the patterns and yes. In the end, I guess which system you choose doesn't matter much at all. It's about fretboard knowledge and visualisation, and the patterns will slowly just become automation and not something you think too much about.

I need a clear outlaid road in front of me, and this book gives me that. Since there is not that many jazz players using 3 notes per string, I find that it opens up for too much problems. There is not too much material which I can pull information from. This book will prevent that, and hold my hand on the journey I will use this book, together with Modern Method for guitar Volume 1.

[christianm77]

Don’t just practice 3 notes a string. While I wouldn’t call it useless for jazz I prefer positional shapes for the scales that start on the 2nd or 4th finger.

Mechanical efficiency isn’t the goal in jazz. That’s the main reason you would use 3nps.

Ultimately you want flexibility, not fingerings.

But really this is the way I would teach scales now;

An important take away is to get used to morphing your shapes, so take a maj7 and morph into a dom7, for instance, by taking the 7ths down a half step. Link fretboard and theoretical knowledge.

[christianm77]

Scales parent arpeggios. Scales themselves can be understood as extended arpeggios or arpeggios with added notes. They are intimately related.

The number of scales you learn is less important than how good you are at applying them and making melodies and patterns from them. Step wise motion and arpeggio motion used exclusively gets very old in jazz quickly, you need a mix of things.

You also need to learn to use chromatic neighbours and passing tones to embellish both scales and arps.

Jazz can be effectively played with just two or three scale types.

Man words are limited. I wish I could just SHOW you what to work on (and hen you’d ignore my advice like I did lol)

[znerken]

Don’t just practice 3 notes a string. While I wouldn’t call it useless for jazz I prefer positional shapes for the scales that start on the 2nd or 4th finger.

Mechanical efficiency isn’t the goal in jazz. That’s the main reason you would use 3nps.

Ultimately you want flexibility, not fingerings.

But really this is the way I would teach scales now;

An important take away is to get used to morphing your shapes, so take a maj7 and morph into a dom7, for instance, by taking the 7ths down a half step. Link fretboard and theoretical knowledge.

As I wrote in my previous post, I will abandon 3 notes per string. Already started on the positions in the book I referred to today. They are basic caged shapes. Feels really easy when I have been doing 3 nps. Easier on the fingers and more playful perhaps. But there is positives and negatives to both approaches. The biggest positive for me is that I have to learn five shapes, and not 7. That is really relevant when learning arpeggio shapes in just one shape seems daunting. I can very easily play the arpeggios of chords I know the chord tones of, even in caged shapes. As soon as I think about shapes though, I can’t. So I got a huge project in front of me, which probably will be very rewarding. Can’t always take for granted that I know the chord tones, and shapes are always quicker. I guess that's the reason to think about shapes? I don't know, since I always just tried to find the chord tones on the fretboard, within one scale position.

[christianm77]

Say the names of the notes and the degrees as you play them - helps with your knowledge.

Fretboard mapping is the biggest time sink on the guitar imo. It’s never ending for me lol. I’m better than I was.

[DS71]

I've used CAGED Chords, Arpeggios, and scales for years, but also 3nps. But I ramped up and focused on jazz for the last 3years. Before that lots of Rock, classical, blues....and a bit of jazzy stuff.

With Jazz I really like the CAGED stuff. Seem to work better for playing changes and lines the chord tones up well......for me. Other guys like 3nps. I still use 3 NPS for some things and a lot in other styles.

I think the 5 shape system works best for me, and have also worked out Melodic minor and working out harmonic minor like that as well.

[Reg]

Yea... so the list is in order... ( if you want more info, maybe different location, )

What one needs to do is separate technical skills from musical skills. Which leads to practicing technical skills and practicing musical skills. Which leads to Practicing technical performance skills and musical performance skills.

Developing technical skills that are designed on what the guitar is and how your hands work. Technical skills give one the ability and freedom to play whatever.... not what shapes you have memorized.

So personally developing technical skills designed on chord shapes.... is limited and leads to specific styles and always ends up hitting walls.

Playing arpeggios... any arpeggio, from two notes to seven notes shouldn't make any difference.... you decide musically what you want to play or what is notated... and you play it.

Eventually all your shapes become ONE.... the fretboard becomes one big 12 fret shape that repeats. If you want C7.... anywhere on the neck should become C7.....you change to G-7.... now the neck becomes G-7.

This is a technical skill.... not musical. It becomes musical when you choose for it to.....

example... I decide, from analysis, or just what I choose etc... that C7 is going to be C13#11 and G-7 is G-13.

That means... G-13 is from G Dorian....second degree of Fmaj....and C13#11 is C Lydian Dominant... 4th degree of GMM.

It doesn't matter what I choose.... I'm just making a musical choice.... all the fingerings are mechanical.... I don't need to think or figure anything out.

If I want to change any notes or.... Create new or different musical relationships.... I'm making a conscious musical choice.

The advantage of having a 12 fret shape.... any musical choice I or the music makes.... has complete results. If I make that that C7 ... C7altered, the result becomes.... G-7 stays the same... technically, the complete fretboard.... and C13#11 becomes
C7alt. which I musically decide that that C7alt is 7th degree from Db Melodic Minor. Note I'm using The source of what that C7alt is.... I'm making a choice. So again the complete fretboard... a 6 string 12 fret repeating pattern... changes from G-13 to C7alt.

I don't play scales or arpeggios, or embellish melodies etc... unless that's what I want to do or play... I could use the same fingerings to play G- (dorian Triads) and whatever notes I want from C7 or C7alt......

If I chose to play all pentatonic patterns from whatever MUSICAL RELATIONSHIP I choose... for that C7 and G-7.... the fretboard becomes whatever I choose those pentatonic relationships to come from.

Anyway... again there are technical skills and musical skill, both have performance applications. When you decide on what fretboard organization your going to use... at least be aware of what your deciding on.

[znerken]

Here is a system that has the same fingerings, and neck organization.... for everything. From scales to arpeggios or any chord arpeggio... and chords...

The Fingerings are Based on 7 Movable Positions. All the fingerings are based on the 6th string root. That means... your Starting reference for everything on the fretboard.... (which is a six string 12 fret pattern), Uses the 6th string for basic starting reference...

Generally the 2nd finger for roots with 1st finger stretches.... there is a complete BS story why I use this system on mt techniques thread... but is works without complications.... become easy without years of practice....

Do you have a video or something explaining this? Not easy to grasp from the PDFs.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Think it's pretty interesting that Kurt talks about it in almost the exact same terms:

[znerken]

Think it's pretty interesting that Kurt talks about it in almost the exact same terms:

So there doesn’t exist any good maps and instructions to this? I mean a few PDFs with tabs doesn’t explain too much.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So there doesn’t exist any good maps and instructions to this? I mean a few PDFs with tabs doesn’t explain too much.

I guess I don't understand exactly what you're looking for. If you mean scale grids, I don't know. I may have some leftover that I made a few years ago from this. PDF is pretty straightforward though.

[Reg]

Thanks Matt....
So znerken... part of becoming aware of how the guitar works and all the possible shapes.... is doing some of the work yourself.

Do you read music?.... I could notate... write out one complete example.... and then you would need to transpose or transfer the process to each scale degree and position etc.

I start with scale first because it covers all the notes in each position... and when you move up through each scale degree you end up with a 12 fret grid that covers all the notes within that 6 string 12 fret repeating pattern.

I'm not using this as a source for "musical understandings" .... The 12 fret pattern become a physical way to play all the notes within that 12 fret repeating pattern... with a Reference... that I choose.

The position patterns can physically play anything you choose from that Reference...

If I'm playing G mixolydian... I can play that Gmixo scale, arpeggio, any triad, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th chord..... anywhere within that 12 fret repeating pattern... mechanically. I can play a version anywhere on the neck without needing to figure anything out technically.... that is the point. I have a technical system to play whatever I choose anywhere on the neck... mechanically.

I can make it musical... if I choose too.... not because the guitar chooses for me.

So those patterns can be named 1 through 7... For beginning process, eventually patterns 1 through 7 become one 12 fret pattern.... it happens and doesn't take that long.

So I'll use Major... Ionian as the basic reference for naming the 7 patterns, and fingerings. All with 6th string reference.

Ionian #1
Dorian #2
Phrygian #3
Lydian #4
Mixolydian #5
Aeolian #6
Locrian #7

If I say... play Bb mixolydian... Bb7 from Mixolydian, I'm making a complete choice. You like 7th chords, so I'll verbally go through the process.

Bb7... pattern #5, (mixo), two octaves of scale, chord tones all starting on Bb 6th fret using pattern #5.

I can also use the pattern one scale degree below and above. meaning I could also use patterns #4 and #6 to play the same thing, two octaves of scale, or chord tones. So I have 3 mechanical fingerings that can play the same thing... Bb7 chord tones or scale.... whatever I choose with that Bb7 as my reference.

So if I want to play that Bb7 starting on 3rd... I would move up to pattern #7 and play Bbmixo scale starting on 3rd, "D" on 6th string, 10th fret with 3rd finger. (Pattern #7 is Locrian). But the pattern is a mechanical technique.... I'm not playing D locrian, I would be playing G mixolydian or G7 starting on 3rd degree.... The Reference is "Bb"

And again I could use pattern above and below.... Patterns #1 and #6...and all with Bb reference.

Then play Bb7 from 5th degree and then the 7th.(b7th). Go through same process.. Eventually like I said... those 7 positions and fingerings just become ONE.

Then Do the same with Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor. I generally relate Harmonic Minor to Aeolian and Melodic Minor To Dorian... both from a physical relationship and also common practice musical relationship.

That is the basic starting material.... yes Harmonic Major, and symmetrical patterns.... Pentatonic patterns etc...

This is all Technical approach for playing the guitar.... there are musical references, relationships....that can also be used from those technical skills....

Like I use Relative Diatonic expanded relationships....
example... from that Bb7

I use mechanically up and down a diatonic 3rd from that Bb7 as subs, modal interchange relationship...whatever

Bb7...... up to D-7b5 or down to G-7 or Mixolydian to Locrian or Phrygian ... Have access to Different Pentatonic patterns to create harmonic patterns when soloing and comping from Functional reference or Modal Function. All these would be using Musical applications that I can realize on the guitar using Technical organizations.

Again You can use anything other patterns... whatever... but you have ONE mechanical system to use a the basic reference for organizing where everything starts from.... technically on the Guitar.

You can use 5 patterns or shapes or whatever.... but i could never make them complete.... I would always hit walls etc...

That doesn't mean they don't work.... But the approach i use for technique is complete. As a Bonus... it helps with not staring at your fretboard when playing something you don't have memorized.... because you have the complete fretboard memorized and just choose where you want to play something....

[matt.guitarteacher]

Bb7... pattern #5, (mixo), two octaves of scale, chord tones all starting on Bb 6th fret using pattern #5.

I can also use the pattern one scale degree below and above. meaning I could also use patterns #4 and #6 to play the same thing, two octaves of scale, or chord tones. So I have 3 mechanical fingerings that can play the same thing... Bb7 chord tones or scale.... whatever I choose with that Bb7 as my reference.

Maybe the first timetime that I have heard you talking about things exactly this way. It occurs to me that your 13th arpeggios fingerings are probably a big part of this up one position– down one position part, as they kind of imply the "in between " thirds relationships with chord tones etc.

[MarkRhodes]

So there doesn’t exist any good maps and instructions to this? I mean a few PDFs with tabs doesn’t explain too much.

Explanation is the wrong goal here.

You have to learn the fingerboard. One way or the other. Pick a way and learn it. This means getting to where you can play without thinking about it. It's not something you figure out and THEN do. You learn by doing it. No shortcut. You learn it by doing it. Over and over and over. For as long as it takes.

Assessing the merits of various ways is beyond the person who hasn't learned even one yet. It's like learning arithmetic in school. You solve simple problems with simple tools. The reason those tools work is something you cannot understand until reach a higher level of mathematics.

Pick a way and learn it. Every time you feel the urge to ask a question about it, practice some more.

[WillMbCdn5]

When I loaded Reg's fingerings into neck diagrams and chart them out I noticed that the F# min7b5 Locrian fingering from the Majmin Scale Pos pdf and the F#min7b5 Locrian from the Arpeggio Position Playing pdf don't line up. The first calls for string G frets 12 , 14 and string B frets 12,13 and 15 and the second calls for string G frets 12, 16 and string B fret 15 should'nt the second one be string G fret 12 and string B frets 12,15 to correspond properly ? Am I having a Doh! moment

I just switched over to this fingering and second finger roots / 6th string / 1st finger stretches feels very natural and comfortable.

Will

[Rsilver]

Two things:

1) Strong melodies describe chords and chord changes. Arpeggios = chords, and their extensions, played one note at a time. Thus they appear a lot in strong melodies and certainly should be practiced.

2) Chasing down a system for fingering everything up and down the neck is useful but time-consuming. At playing-time, you improvise by ear not, hopefully, by running memorized visual patterns. Thus I recommend spending at least as much time on ear training as on learning visual patterns up and down the neck. You kind of have to forget your patterns at playing time and rely on playing by ear.

[Reg]

When I loaded Reg's fingerings into neck diagrams and chart them out I noticed that the F# min7b5 Locrian fingering from the Majmin Scale Pos pdf and the F#min7b5 Locrian from the Arpeggio Position Playing pdf don't line up. The first calls for string G frets 12 , 14 and string B frets 12,13 and 15 and the second calls for string G frets 12, 16 and string B fret 15 should'nt the second one be string G fret 12 and string B frets 12,15 to correspond properly ? Am I having a Doh! moment

I just switched over to this fingering and second finger roots / 6th string / 1st finger stretches feels very natural and comfortable.

Will

Hey Will, Yes your right.... I updated the PDFs both scales and arpeggios.

There are two fingerings for Locrian the F#-7b5. One using 2nd finger with 1st finger stretches and one using 3rd finger with.... which has a 4th finger stretch with two octave scale and depending on what arpeggio your playing... may or may not have the 4th finger stretch.

If your playing any pattern that uses the 4th string F#... the 4th finger stretch would be included.
Here are the updated... (both fingerings).

Sorry about the confusion and thanks for seeing. I usually use the 3ed finger reference.... better for top 4 string arpeggios and patterns... which is useful when soloing and creating harmonic movement....