Accents Bebop and Swing

[ginod]

Since a long time i struggle a little bit with the big topic Accents in jazz.

A Basic thing is to accent all upbeats in 8th note lines and slur to the downbeat (if you want).

A few years ago i saw an video of Adam Rogers where he was talking about accents in jazz and he said, that he use different patterns of Accenting the notes in 8 note line.

Make like an interval (rhytmik) of pointed quarternote or as a oddmeter in 2 and 3 .

So i am a little bit overwhelmed because most of the time i try to accent the offbeat and slur to the down beat if it's possible. I think Adam Rogers use very less Legato Techniques. If i decided to accent after every pointed quarternote, i tend to slur after every accent - also from downbeat to offbeat.

It's hard to define a certain question for my problem :-D. But how you handle accents in your playing. Do you accent mostly offbeats and slur to downbeats? Do you also use accents in an oddnumber way and if yes, when? Have you typical strategies ?

Or is thinking about accents while playing maybe not a good way to get a good phrasing ?

[mikostep]

Since a long time i struggle a little bit with the big topic Accents in jazz.

A Basic thing is to accent all upbeats in 8th note lines and slur to the downbeat (if you want).

A few years ago i saw an video of Adam Rogers where he was talking about accents in jazz and he said, that he use different patterns of Accenting the notes in 8 note line.

Make like an interval (rhytmik) of pointed quarternote or as a oddmeter in 2 and 3 .

So i am a little bit overwhelmed because most of the time i try to accent the offbeat and slur to the down beat if it's possible. I think Adam Rogers use very less Legato Techniques. If i decided to accent after every pointed quarternote, i tend to slur after every accent - also from downbeat to offbeat.

It's hard to define a certain question for my problem :-D. But how you handle accents in your playing. Do you accent mostly offbeats and slur to downbeats? Do you also use accents in an oddnumber way and if yes, when? Have you typical strategies ?

Or is thinking about accents while playing maybe not a good way to get a good phrasing ?

I would say that your last sentence describes all the great players from the past. Not the modern ones.

[Sammo]

This was pretty good video regarding jazz phrasing, albeit not very modern approach though. In short:
1) Legato playing in overall
2) Accent higherst note of your line, de-accent or ghost lowest notes
3) End phrases with "Be Bop", mening second to last note is long noteand last note short
4) Off beat quarter notes are (mostly) to be played detached

[christianm77]

Since a long time i struggle a little bit with the big topic Accents in jazz.

A Basic thing is to accent all upbeats in 8th note lines and slur to the downbeat (if you want).

A few years ago i saw an video of Adam Rogers where he was talking about accents in jazz and he said, that he use different patterns of Accenting the notes in 8 note line.

Make like an interval (rhytmik) of pointed quarternote or as a oddmeter in 2 and 3 .

So i am a little bit overwhelmed because most of the time i try to accent the offbeat and slur to the down beat if it's possible. I think Adam Rogers use very less Legato Techniques. If i decided to accent after every pointed quarternote, i tend to slur after every accent - also from downbeat to offbeat.

It's hard to define a certain question for my problem :-D. But how you handle accents in your playing. Do you accent mostly offbeats and slur to downbeats? Do you also use accents in an oddnumber way and if yes, when? Have you typical strategies ?

Or is thinking about accents while playing maybe not a good way to get a good phrasing ?

I think it’s worth separating practice exercises and music.

The playing groupings of 3 , 5 etc in an 8th note line is great because it teaches to be able to handle irregular accents in your technique. But real music tends not to be that simple.

So def practice that

Then the offbeat picking and slurring thing is best (I think) for even unaccented 8th notes.

I’ve got a lot out of that too.

I think being to play even is the basis of jazz phrasing, you can add accentuation from there.

I think when it comes to actual music it’s best to make these decisions based on your ears. Depending on your technique you will find that some left hand fingerings work better than others.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't think you need to think so much about accenting the offbeat AND slurring into the downbeat. The slur itself creates the accent. There are multiple ways to imply accents besides just picking a note harder etc.

You're somewhat "accenting an accent"...

[sgcim]

A good thing to read on this is the intro that Jimmy Raney wrote to the Jamey Abersald volume that featured JR.
He posits that the way Bird swung was NOT the syncopated rhythms of the Swing era, and NOT the uneven eighth notes of the organ trio players (Benson, for example), but playing EVEN 8th notes, and accenting the up beats to achieve the bop type of syncopation.

He described the way a guy like Joe Pass played as like "Charlie Parker, all straightened out", which I take to mean that he accented the down beats more than the up beats.
It's a subtle thing that I don't hear any of the new players doing. Guys like Tal Farlow(of the 50s), Wes Montgomery, Rene Thomas, and Grant Green are some players that played the way JR talked about.

[christianm77]

Ha Jimmy said a lot of stuff.

My favourite is ‘no one liked Lennie Tristanos music apart from his mother and Lee Konitz’

But it’s interesting. I hear him on Joe Pass (which is one reason I prefer Jimmy as a listener I think) but I think his comments on Parker don’t quite sit with my understanding if he referenced Benson in particular.

Barry Harris did say of Jimmy that he was the only guitarist who got close to what Yard was doing rhythmically.

[christianm77]

A good thing to read on this is the intro that Jimmy Raney wrote to the Jamey Abersald volume that featured JR.
He posits that the way Bird swung was NOT the syncopated rhythms of the Swing era, and NOT the uneven eighth notes of the organ trio players (Benson, for example), but playing EVEN 8th notes, and accenting the up beats to achieve the bop type of syncopation.

He described the way a guy like Joe Pass played as like "Charlie Parker, all straightened out", which I take to mean that he accented the down beats more than the up beats.
It's a subtle thing that I don't hear any of the new players doing. Guys like Tal Farlow(of the 50s), Wes Montgomery, Rene Thomas, and Grant Green are some players that played the way JR talked about.

Btw we’ve had a long running thread about the nature of upbeat placement etc.

What I hear from Raney is even 8ths placed on the swing upbeat. His placement of the beat is somewhat relaxed - he’s a classic straight and late player from that point of view.

In terms of the accents I’m going to have a careful listen to Raney and Pass today with that in mind.

BTW one I feel is often very lacking in modern jazz players today is a concept of how to deal with medium tempo single time swing. Many younger players double the time for fear of being corny. It is my belief that practicing with a metronome on the 2 & 4 and being conscious of synching with the click will naturally lead to a corny dotted mid tempo feel, or a straightened out implied double time. If you aim instead to make the click swing, it'll work out better. But we are in the age of the DAW.

EDIT: here is a really nice medium-up example of what I love about Raney's swing feel. It's interesting rhythms, triplets in the line, laid back 8ths with cool accents, all of that. It's easy to see why Barry Harris likes him so much. I can definitely hear what he's talking about.

Here's Joe Pass playing medium swing with a rhythm section (not the easiest Pass to find lol.)

I think you'd have to be completely mental to say this doesn't swing magnificently, and most of us can only aspire to this level of feel... But, I can see the aesthetic difference that Raney is talking about. It's certainly more evenly articulated and I'd like to hear an example of how Jimmy would play at this exact tempo.

I love JR. I think he was a very forthright gentleman haha... Had strong ideas about how he wanted to play music, a real vision. Players now be like 'I play like this cos that's what my teacher said.'

I'm in the middle of renovations so can't dig out my copy of the Aebersold to check out the exact wording of what Jimmy said. What did he specifically say about the 'organ players'?

[lawson-stone]

A good thing to read on this is the intro that Jimmy Raney wrote to the Jamey Abersald volume that featured JR.
He posits that the way Bird swung was NOT the syncopated rhythms of the Swing era, and NOT the uneven eighth notes of the organ trio players (Benson, for example), but playing EVEN 8th notes, and accenting the up beats to achieve the bop type of syncopation.

He described the way a guy like Joe Pass played as like "Charlie Parker, all straightened out", which I take to mean that he accented the down beats more than the up beats.
It's a subtle thing that I don't hear any of the new players doing. Guys like Tal Farlow(of the 50s), Wes Montgomery, Rene Thomas, and Grant Green are some players that played the way JR talked about.

Where in that volume is that statement about Joe Pass? I can't find it at least in Vol. 20. Nothing in there about Joe Pass "straightening out" Charlie Parker, though I've heard that quote... but never actually seen it firsthand.

[ginod]

Best video i have ever seen about jazz i think :-D. So great an so helpful a lot thank you

[christianm77]

Yeah it's a good video - just watched it....

I don't think he touches on beat placement.... I'm in two minds as to how important it is to talk about that, but I think you could end up playing straight and synched to the downbeat if your not careful, and that does not swing.

[joe2758]

i had a break through on feeling the swung 8th without the down beat as a reference. (reason being of course I want to mess with the downbeat placement and keep upbeats locked in)

1. watched Christian's latest video on the subject and practiced that.
2. tapped downbeats with right hand and swung eighths with left, then slowly quieted down the right hand til it was inaudible. (This helped a ton, Christian. Good for your students maybe?)
3. Once I had a good feel for it I was listening to Perdido onJazz at Massey Hall and I heard someone vocalizing swung upbeats (ah, ah, ah, ah). and it was a real aha moment. Maybe it was Bud? on spotify it's around 1:30. you can hear it more throughout the performance. It also made me think these guys are really "feeling the ands" as Barry Harris would say.

[christianm77]

i had a break through on feeling the swung 8th without the down beat as a reference. (reason being of course I want to mess with the downbeat placement and keep upbeats locked in)

1. watched Christian's latest video on the subject and practiced that.
2. tapped downbeats with right hand and swung eighths with left, then slowly quieted down the right hand til it was inaudible. (This helped a ton, Christian. Good for your students maybe?)
3. Once I had a good feel for it I was listening to Perdido onJazz at Massey Hall and I heard someone vocalizing swung upbeats (ah, ah, ah, ah). and it was a real aha moment. Maybe it was Bud? on spotify it's around 1:30. you can hear it more throughout the performance. It also made me think these guys are really "feeling the ands" as Barry Harris would say.

That's awesome!

2. sounds like a really good idea.

[don_oz]

This was pretty good video regarding jazz phrasing, albeit not very modern approach though. In short:
1) Legato playing in overall
2) Accent higherst note of your line, de-accent or ghost lowest notes
3) End phrases with "Be Bop", mening second to last note is long noteand last note short
4) Off beat quarter notes are (mostly) to be played detached

Very useful video, he makes some very helpful and good points. However I don't agree with him when he says that Bebop was meant for you to 'sit your ass down and listen'

When you wanted to see Dizzy and bird you'd have to go to a dance hall. People would dance when they heard them.

Even when they were in the Billy ecklestein band, and they were working on early Bebop in the band, people would still dance. You can even see Dizzy Gillespie dancing to his big band, and he even says that you can dance to it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

It's hard to define a certain question for my problem :-D. But how you handle accents in your playing. Do you accent mostly offbeats and slur to downbeats? Do you also use accents in an oddnumber way and if yes, when? Have you typical strategies ?

Or is thinking about accents while playing maybe not a good way to get a good phrasing ?

I know it's been a while on this thread, but re these questions, I'd say probably no, thinking about accents while playing isn't probably as helpful as thinking about accents in the practice room.

In the same way that you probably wouldn't t start trying melodic ideas on the bandstand - which you can't otherwise play - you probably want to develop rhythmic ideas in a basic way in the practice room first. Practice playing accent groupings of 3 for a while, and get an ear for what they sound like and how they feel. Play them much more than you actually would in a solo while you're trying to develop an ear/feel for them.

Practice melodic cells which imply the pattern you're going after. Most "accent" patterns are really implied by melody more than anything else: pitch, repetition etc. Look to tunes for examples. A tune such as "In the Mood" has a 3 accent pattern that will be clearly heard by anyone, even if you play it dead straight without "accenting" anything. Practice scale and arp sequences in 3's, basically triplets. Then, do the same with other groupings.

The same articulations which you use to accent offbeats can be used to accent other rhythmic groupings as well by the way. Real time playing is mostly about playing what you can actually hear and play. Work on them in the shed until you can hear and play them.

[Tal_175]

I think an important factor in how one swings is how one implicitly subdivides the 4/4 time quarter beat (or does implicit subdivision at all).
Isn't it correct to say the straight-ahead jazz feel is based on the implicit triplet subdivision of the quarter beat?
Triplet subdivision doesn't mean accents always happen right on one of the subdivided beats. But the feeling of the subdivision is the main reference for the accent placement. Accents can be delayed or anticipated etc but that's all in relation to the triplet subdivision. Is this controversial?

[eh6794-2.0]

It is my opinion that you are hitting on the most important question in jazz: what makes jazz... jazz?

Jazz is about feeling and soul: Where you play a note, where you release that note and how soft and quiet you play a note. It is about your feelings (sounds corny, right?)

Listen to a jazz great like Miles or Chet at a very slow speed (You can slow Youtube videos down). Analyze where they play and release the note. You feel that, but you don't realize it.

Most non-pros don't get it. They are great at harmony, (which is academic and can be written on paper) but that has nothing to do with your soul. And, even when we do get it, we can't interpret our feelings to our instrument the way the greats do; their instrument is a part of their body.

When you open that door and realize there is an entirely new layer to the music that you never thought about (or you did think about it, but you didn't understand its importance), it will change your playing.

[DS71]

Since a long time i struggle a little bit with the big topic Accents in jazz.

A Basic thing is to accent all upbeats in 8th note lines and slur to the downbeat (if you want).

A few years ago i saw an video of Adam Rogers where he was talking about accents in jazz and he said, that he use different patterns of Accenting the notes in 8 note line.

Make like an interval (rhytmik) of pointed quarternote or as a oddmeter in 2 and 3 .

So i am a little bit overwhelmed because most of the time i try to accent the offbeat and slur to the down beat if it's possible. I think Adam Rogers use very less Legato Techniques. If i decided to accent after every pointed quarternote, i tend to slur after every accent - also from downbeat to offbeat.

It's hard to define a certain question for my problem :-D. But how you handle accents in your playing. Do you accent mostly offbeats and slur to downbeats? Do you also use accents in an oddnumber way and if yes, when? Have you typical strategies ?

Or is thinking about accents while playing maybe not a good way to get a good phrasing ?

I haven't read through all of these, but I have seen a lot of Adams materials(Mymasterclass). Really gotten into his playing. Love the 335 tone as well(more than I realized).

On a side note, and that goes with timing and feel. If I can build something in a nonmusical context, like using a scale, set of scales or just a basic chromatic drill, that nails what I'm after, I'll drill it until It's unconscious and basically manifests itself into my playing.

I'll also take things to the drum set, because for me it helps.

Also, I'll move from Backing tracks, 4 clicks, to 2 clicks per bar, 1 click per bar. Backing tracks for me can be like training wheels.

If I start taking rhythmic info away to build skill, in this case feel. When it gets added back in it gets way, way easier.

All imho, ymmv.

[christianm77]

I think an important factor in how one swings is how one implicitly subdivides the 4/4 time quarter beat (or does implicit subdivision at all).
Isn't it correct to say the straight-ahead jazz feel is based on the implicit triplet subdivision of the quarter beat?
Triplet subdivision doesn't mean accents always happen right on one of the subdivided beats. But the feeling of the subdivision is the main reference for the accent placement. Accents can be delayed or anticipated etc but that's all in relation to the triplet subdivision. Is this controversial?

My thoughts on these points are set out in these three videos which nobody watched lol

Whether or not I have an idea what I am talking about the fact that three videos entitled 'how to swing' have had by the paltry standards of my channel, crap traffic compared to videos about harmony and technique, tells you all you need to know about the skewiff priorities of many budding jazz guitarists.

That's OK. The more people who get this, the more competition there'll be ;-)

I don't think any of this info is controverisal. The 12/8 lilt of the music comes from the music's West African heritage.

[DS71]

Whether or not I have an idea what I am talking about the fact that three videos entitled 'how to swing' have had by the paltry standards of my channel, crap traffic compared to videos about harmony and technique, tells you all you need to know about the skewiff priorities of many budding jazz guitarists.

That's OK. The more people who get this, the more competition there'll be ;-)

I don't think any of this info is controverisal. The 12/8 lilt of the music comes from the music's West African heritage.

True true. It's arguably the most important part. otherwise you just have notes.

[christianm77]

Listen to what Rollins can do with a triad. FFS it's staring everyone in the face, but we'd rather talk about modes.

Jazz harmony - the basic ins and outs of it that constitute the common practice of 1920s to the 1960s, the music that everyone reveres regardless of what other stuff they might like - isn't complicated. There's 6 or 7 notes you can stack on a chord and everything else is basically voice leading.

People try to make it so, but it's really not all that.

And great players made great music with a selection of very typical (for the time) harmonic choices made into great melodic lines that swung. And they had their own sound, so that when they played a C major triad you say - 'what was that? the hippest thing I ever heard...'

That shouldn't be controversial, but someone will probably say 'but .... contemporary jazz' - to which I say 'yes.... but that's not what I'm talking about.'

Plus any capable jazz guitarist I've ever talked to says that same thing. Phil Robson told me that over 20 years ago when I started learning.... Should have listened!

[Tal_175]

This generalizes to other styles of music as well. Where would Metallica be without the great 16'th note feel of Hetfield's riffs. The guy only down picks and plays the guitar like it's a drum. Rhythmic compatibility of Ulrich and Hetfield sold them millions of records.
Triadic material with great time feel is their music (obfuscated a bit perhaps by the angry noise up front)

[don_oz]

Listen to what Rollins can do with a triad. FFS it's staring everyone in the face, but we'd rather talk about modes.

Jazz harmony - the basic ins and outs of it that constitute the common practice of 1920s to the 1960s, the music that everyone reveres regardless of what other stuff they might like - isn't complicated. There's 6 or 7 notes you can stack on a chord and everything else is basically voice leading.

People try to make it so, but it's really not all that.

And great players made great music with a selection of very typical (for the time) harmonic choices made into great melodic lines that swung. And they had their own sound, so that when they played a C major triad you say - 'what was that? the hippest thing I ever heard...'

That shouldn't be controversial, but someone will probably say 'but .... contemporary jazz' - to which I say 'yes.... but that's not what I'm talking about.'

Plus any capable jazz guitarist I've ever talked to says that same thing. Phil Robson told me that over 20 years ago when I started learning.... Should have listened!

This comes to mind.

[DS71]

This generalizes to other styles of music as well. Where would Metallica be without the great 16'th note feel of Hetfield's riffs. The guy only down picks and plays the guitar like it's a drum. Rhythmic compatibility of Ulrich and Hetfield sold them millions of records.
Triadic material with great time feel is their music (obfuscated a bit perhaps by the angry noise up front)

Triadic, lol. Your giving them too much credit. I'd say Diadic, lol.

[MarkRhodes]

This was pretty good video regarding jazz phrasing, albeit not very modern approach though. In short:
1) Legato playing in overall
2) Accent higherst note of your line, de-accent or ghost lowest notes
3) End phrases with "Be Bop", mening second to last note is long noteand last note short
4) Off beat quarter notes are (mostly) to be played detached

I emailed Jeff Antoniuk and he emailed me the pdf for this lesson. (The four points listed above are the gist.) It also includes the head for "Anthropology". Jeff seemed pleased to hear his lesson is appreciated here.