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I am working on specific tunes now using Barry Harris ideas.
Lately learning I'm Old Fashioned. Using Barrys single note improv ideas working on lines and octaves. Using his harmonic ideas I'm working on playing the melody in CM, improvising CM solos and comping using his ideas. It is quite a workout learning each new tune this way, but when I've done this on each tune for a couple of weeks, it feels very good and in control. It feels good to have enough control of the style to do at least this much
Think I'm going to stay with this method of learning for a good period of time.
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08-05-2019 09:14 PM
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Reg talks about this in on of his videos, when talking about enclosures. Kind of an off- hand comment...third-person, as a non-strictly-bebopper. Something like: "That's what Bebop is. It's mostly dominant approaches"...
Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-06-2019 at 07:49 AM.
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This is a big one which I have come to myself recently more and more. I find that if I'm having trouble playing something in a given pattern/ position, it helps a lot to just take it to an easier place and simply play till I can hear it better. The fingers know more than we think. Originally Posted by christianm77
Anyway, I've been doing dominant scales in thirds with half step approaches this week. Not being able tho hear things is a bigger obstacle than just technical. The way Barry has this laid out, it's a polyrhythm with eighth notes in alternating strong/weak beats of 3's. I finally figured out that by changing the rhythm to shed it, I could immediately play it better and get back to the "real rhythm". So, a completely different accommodation than the first one I mentioned, but they both have the "hearing" aspect in common.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-06-2019 at 11:10 AM.
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Have you got the 8-7-6 phrases?
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I've been doing Harris exercises the last two or three weeks , and I've come back to something I've noticed multiple times in the past: for whatever reason, the "halfstep rules" lines are harder on my left hand then just about anything I've ever tried to learn to play.
I've done a lot of technical stuff the last two or three years, more so then any other time in my playing . I've done all this with stretch fingerings, and I've had to learn to pace things and take care myself in the process.
Anyway, I just don't know why this one particular thing aggravates my left hand fingers more than anything else. I mean, much more than the chromatic approach in thirds , stretch arpeggios , everything else.
Every time I come back to it, it's slightly better , I guess because I have slightly better technique with it or something? Still though, even the patterns which are "in position" aren't something my hand likes that much. I've basically chalked this up to something that I can reasonably run through in all positions once or twice a day and no more for the time being.
BTW, I've tried the Ronnie Ben-Hur fingerings and many other variations over the last couple of years, on-and-off-again. The last couple of weeks, I've learned the dvd material up to the "chords" (four-note arp scales on the dominant) in 7 positions, thirds approached by half step in 7 etc etc. Anyway, I would have assumed these other two exercises to be much harder on the hands, just looking at it, but it's just not the case.
Anyway, I was curious as to whether or not anyone else had experienced this. Thanks.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-17-2019 at 06:08 PM.
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And if you run scales without half steps at the same speed, it doesn’t hurt your hand?
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No. Not really. Originally Posted by tamirgal
I think it's probably just about getting used to them. Just slightly annoying...
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Have you tried using the "no little finger, thumb hooked over the neck" style? I've been playing this way more and more over the past few years, it requires some shifting that wasn't intuitive for me at first, but it's way easier on the left hand. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
my "serious" instrument these days is upright bass, and I take lessons from a classical bassist, and they are adamant about not ever stretching to catch a note, but rather, .
I basically never "reach" or stretch in my left hand these days, and I never feel any soreness in my left hand anymore as a result.
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Yeah. I don't really see it as a stretch issue. It's less stretchy than a lot of other things, and probably more "shifty"... Originally Posted by pcsanwald
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Agreed. You shouldn’t need to stretch when playing melodically. Originally Posted by pcsanwald
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my wife was out of town, and so, exciting person that I am, I took down Barry's second chorus also. He plays some longer lines in this one, good stuff!
Barry.pdf
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Which album is the solo from? Thank you for the second chorus, very useful to have examples of his actual phrases. Someone should make s book of BH transcriptions since his methods are so widely studied. It helps to see his ideas put into play.
Last edited by rintincop; 08-20-2019 at 02:11 PM.
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Question. What scale does BH teach for bar 2 of Have You Met Miss Jones, for the F#dim 7 chord?
I presume it would be descend from the 7th degree of the F7 scale and end on a F#. Correct?
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I misread this when I first answered it. My bet for the first 2 measures is F major up and down to the third of D (note F#). Originally Posted by rintincop
Last edited by Petimar; 08-24-2019 at 01:24 PM.
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Did BH ever say play a diminished scale over a diminished chord or does he reserve the diminished scale for deriving chord harmony movements over a dominant b9 chord ?
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I don’t think I’ve heard him talk about using the diminished scale directly for line construction or harmony. He seems to regard it as a theoretical concept more than a resource for harmony or improvisation afaik, but i could be mistaken. Originally Posted by rintincop
On diminished chords we use the I or IV 6-dim scale. Covers the options.
So on F#o7 C/G, we actually use G maj-6 dim starting on the diminished. And the G6 sounds like a Cmaj9 on a C bass.
He does talk about diminished relationships - brothers and sisters.
Anyone?
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I don’t have this first hand from Barry but I would probably view it as part of the the Bb6 - dim. Reason: Originally Posted by rintincop
F#o7 is setting up Gm7
Gm7 = Bb6
If we start on the dim notes and then go into Gm7/Bb6 it works really good.
Anyone?
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No G7 in bar 1 of the A section. Barry is VERY specific about that sort of thing (basically Parker never played it.) Originally Posted by rintincop
Also the changes you have here are kind of overcomplicated if we are relating to the lines. For instance here it’s always Eb7 for the whole of bar 6 of the A. In fact in the general Parker discography on rhythm tunes apparently rarely there’s a Ebm or Eo7 in the solos. Heads are a different matter.
This is something that the Omnibook is very good on, Btw, with the chord symbols.
Plus it’s always worth repeating Barry says play on F7 over the whole of Cm F7.
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Christian,
The larger font chord symbols and brackets were intended to show the important "fewest chords" thinking.
You make a very good point, Parker never seemed to outline G-7 or G7 in the second half of measure one.
However, chord compers and bass players often do tend to play G7 on beats 3 and 4 of bar one.
It's even specified in the Howard Reese Book (w Barry Harris) Book 1 on page 37:
It says: Rhythm Changes
| I vi | ii V | iii vi | ii V |
| I iii dim | IV7 #iv dim | I vi | ii V |
Regarding the diminished scale for improv, Barry does say use the diminished to solo over a dominant seventh chord (see p. 40 Book 2, Howard Reese).Last edited by rintincop; 08-24-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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Its took some digging, but here they are: Originally Posted by grahambop
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17utBoVRMq6eXpruVxfJLEJPHINEVtwST
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eismLD0eRHtca2y8w68Z630JIU0jnI2F
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It's from "At The Jazz Workshop" with the impossibly great rhythm section of Sam Jones and Louis Hayes. I do kinda find it interesting that these forum discussions tend to fixate a lot on the theoretical aspects of Barry's methods, but, in his NYC workshops, Barry plays, sometimes quite a bit. I think it's really important to pair this kind of theoretical learning with actually listening to, and to some degree analyzing, the actual music that results from this. The reason I wanted to share this is because I hope this work is useful for others, and I do think it's a good reminder to check out the music; it's all there. As much as I love and respect the "things I learned from barry harris" person that does those videos, the big thing you miss there is hearing a bebop master like Barry actually use this material in practice, which you definitely get in Barry's classes. Originally Posted by rintincop
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Can’t see the G7 in that? Sorry if am being a bit dim. Originally Posted by rintincop
Don’t confuse soloing and accompanying harmony. I know this is tough to understand from the point of view of most other pedagogy where it’s seen as the same thing. The soloing changes are heavily simplified from what you might see as a typical accompanying part.
In rather the same way that we don’t have to think about IIm7, we don’t have to worry about any of that stuff. That’s for the rhythm section to decide how they dress up the chords. We can dress things up totally differently in the solo line.
Including playing an E in bar 6, say.
So it’s up to the person writing out the chart to decide what the chord symbols represent.
To my mind I would want them to represent as close as possible what Barry was playing in the solo line. But looking at the chart again I see what you were trying to do.
Are you think of a bassline running G B on beats 3 and 4? You can in this case think of the B as an approach tone on the upbeat. So it’s not really harmonic.
In the same way we can take or leave the idea of the typical bassline Bb Ab G B as implying Bb7 in the first bar (or even Ab) - or the C E F A in the following bar as implying C7 G7 - the comper or soloist can highlight these extra changes if they want, but really they are passing tones.
Some versions of rhythm changes have a Bo7 on beat 3, bar 1 which is relayed to G7b9 of course. Nothing wrong with that - but this is not how Parker played it, and it’s a mistake people often make when trying to emulate his style. I learned this in Barry’s class, BTW, I wish I was that clever or observant!
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The half whole scale isn’t mentioned book 2 p40. Just 7b5 dim and tritone’s m6-dim.
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Excellent points. Originally Posted by christianm77
For "E-7b5 , play C7 down from the 7th to C# for A7). Do you think the explanation is more than it keeps chord tones on the beat?
I think it's the prettiest scale line you can do on a minor 7thy b5 chord, imo.
I notice it's what Parker did in A Night In Tunisia, Embraceable You, What Is This Thing Called Love, and Hot House.Last edited by rintincop; 08-31-2019 at 10:43 PM.
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