The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    Tal, with all your arguments on what’s a better way to practice it gives me the feeling that you are under the impression that this is all we will be doing for a month. we are all working other hings, this will be about 10% of my practice

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Tal, with all your arguments on what’s a better way to practice it gives me the feeling that you are under the impression that this is all we will be doing for a month. we are all working other hings, this will be about 10% of my practice
    This was a general remark. Not at all an attempt to address any specific thing regarding this thread. BH workshop scale outlines are given in root position. I believe this was done to clearly show what scales to play where. Not necessarily to indicate how to exactly practice these tunes. That's my take on it. I'm not suggesting the thread is saying otherwise.

  4. #28
    srry tal, youre right. whats obvious to me may not be to the other readers

  5. #29
    The rhythmic aspect is the most important. Musicians on other instruments would be coming from the context of having learned scales octave- to- octave classical-style probably. Learning to play them up and down, but ENDING on the root ...on the strong beat is the important aspect - and the thing which differentiates them as being more bebop than classical.

    The "trap" aspect is over blown and not helpful in this case. Of COURSE, if you practice always starting from the root, that's what you're going to be ABLE to do. And it's absolutely the truth for ANYTHING you "always and only" do, but this simply IS NOT a "restriction".

    The fact that many guitar players learn things only one way is somewhat beside the point in my opinion. Most players who know scales, know how to play them up and down an octave and need separate practice playing then up-and-down a 7th, the way Harris prescribes.

    Beginning exercises and starting points aren't RESTRICTIONS. They are in a way, by default, if you NEVER progress past that point, but that's kind of a false problem , and again, somewhat beside the point.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    This was a general remark. Not at all an attempt to address any specific thing regarding this thread. BH workshop scale outlines are given in root position. I believe this was done to clearly show what scales to play where. Not necessarily to indicate how to exactly practice these tunes. That's my take on it. I'm not suggesting the thread is saying otherwise.
    Hi Tal,
    You are absolutely right. In one of the recent videos by Chris (episode 22 - about playing over the rhythm bridge) he say that after Barry have them play the scales of the bridge, he tell them to come up with phrases and play the same phrase in each of the keys over the changes.

    Check out this episode. In only 15 minutes, Chris cover so much of Barry's stuff. It's pretty amazing. It also show the importance of the ABCs of Barry, because eventually everything is connected (playing in thirds, triads, chords, half steps, etc.)

    Here it is:


  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    One drawback of playing BH scales always starting from the root is that the brain loves shortcuts. When you do something always in the same specific way, brain learns to rely on certain cues/landmarks that apply only to that specific way. These cues/landmarks are usually subconscious. If you play scales always starting from the root, you're learning just that.
    Scales should be practiced starting from different degrees and with different targets. Some people call them "modes" I prefer mastering a scale deeply, rather than skimming all it's modes as separate entities. But that's a different subject.
    BH scales of course are for ear training and learning a tune's changes. But one doesn't have to play scales from the root to "sound" the changes. So you can pack more to your practice time by being creative with the scales. This might be obvious to some. But since we established that there is a value in stating the obvious,I though I'd state this as well.
    I like your thinking. So, as an example, how would you specifically incorporate this in your practice?

    For eg, the blues. Would you run the scale from the important minor to the 11th, and maybe also from the b7 to the 13? Or are you mechanically going through ALL modes?


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  8. #32
    you both have points, but let's move on. Everyone here is choosing to work on the same thing regardless of why. My experience with study groups has been really positive, so let's just support each other at the task at hand. Tonight I'm going to see what my base line speed is for these things and how close i can get. I'm expecting around 170 before I get sloppy

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I like your thinking. So, as an example, how would you specifically incorporate this in your practice?

    For eg, the blues. Would you run the scale from the important minor to the 11th, and maybe also from the b7 to the 13? Or are you mechanically going through ALL modes?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I haven't watched it yet but the Chris's video above posted by tamirgal sounds like has some good pointers.
    One example of what I do is to build a one bar phrase starting from a specific chord tone and adapt the phrase to each chord of blues and play with a metronome (on 2 & 4) or with a looper. Phrase can be triadic, scalar or mixed. I might practice initially 4 bars at a time. Example of a simple phrase is just the usual 1, 2, 3, 5 but starting on the 5th. Then you can do 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 6. This starting on different chord tones while adjusting the quality of the degrees (say 3 can be b3 based on the chord or scale degree phrase is starting on).
    Another example of a phrase 3 down to 6 chromatically.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-10-2018 at 02:22 PM.

  10. #34

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    I attended Howard Rees workshops for a couple of moths a while ago. They were excellent. A lot of the workshops were about building phrases that work over certain chords or common chord changes (for example 1 going to 6) and applying them to tunes. Much like the 1 going to 6 examples in the BH Workshop videos.
    I believe the format and style of the workshops followed the original BH workshops closely.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    For eg, the blues. Would you run the scale from the important minor to the 11th, and maybe also from the b7 to the 13?
    These are also perfectly fine phrases in my opinion.

  12. #36

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    The idea that Barry Harris scales and lines for practice purposes always mechanically start with the Root is absolutely not true.

    in the first place, the half step rules apply when the scale DESCENDS from various intervals, not just the Tonic, .

    and then we always have stuff like Eb7 from the 7 down to the 3rd of C7. That’s always everywhere in his direction. Anybody who’s watched even a fraction of his 8 DVDs knows this.

    3rd —one of the most important things he hammers away is the idea of PIVOTING.

    4th—the 5432 rules, with wider intervals, are designed to break out of conventional scalar thinking.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    One drawback of playing BH scales always starting from the root is that the brain loves shortcuts. When you do something always in the same specific way, brain learns to rely on certain cues/landmarks that apply only to that specific way. These cues/landmarks are usually subconscious. If you play scales always starting from the root, you're learning just that.
    Scales should be practiced starting from different degrees and with different targets. Some people call them "modes" I prefer mastering a scale deeply, rather than skimming all it's modes as separate entities. But that's a different subject.
    BH scales of course are for ear training and learning a tune's changes. But one doesn't have to play scales from the root to "sound" the changes. So you can pack more to your practice time by being creative with the scales. This might be obvious to some. But since we established that there is a value in stating the obvious,I though I'd state this as well.
    Playing BH scales with his half step rules, right? I am guessing BH would approve, but I never met the gentleman.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

  14. #38
    is anyone going to be working on the material in the video? no problem if not, but otherwise I'm not going to worry about posting my progress. I think I saw like one other guy say he was going to participate and learn in different positions, and the thread is two pages long...

  15. #39

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    You're right Joe. Though I think just one clarification is due. Some people took my posts to mean, "BH wants you to only practice scales from the root, don't play them in any other way". If so, then I'm sorry looks like I didn't state my post well.
    What I meant was to the contrary, playing over tunes by applying all the tools described in the videos to the scales as well as coming up with new creative ways. I did say that may be this would be obvious to some. But because all the tunes in Chapter 2 are outlined by scales from the root(along with some phrase building), it might be easy for some to "over emphasize" this form during their practices.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-10-2018 at 06:08 PM.

  16. #40
    Ok. So, through October 9, the primary focus is the blues up-and-down as in the video and goals related.

    Personally, I'll aim for 200 bpm in a couple of new positions, solidifying about 5 of them.

    What I'm personally talking about - and what I would speculate Christian is basically talking about - is playing one -octave dominant scales:

    from 2nd finger roots on 4th, 5th, and 6th strings...
    from 4th finger roots on 4th, 5th, and 6th strings...
    and another from 1st finger root on 3rd string...
    ( Be curious to know how these lime up with Christian)

    The first time I looked at doing some of this, I found the number of possibilities for things to be frustrating. So, for anyone in that potential situation, I'll offer one person's approach. Take what you like and leave the rest. :-)

    My approach finally became to start with one "position", like the one he uses in the video, and learn those 3 patterns. It has three dominant fingerings patterns, one of which you would alter for C major down to C# (apologies for terminology). Anyway, if you've never done these, they can be more technical than mental. So, I found it helpful to work the entire progression using a single fingering. Then, rinse and repeat with the other 2, and finally, all 3 "in position".

    Then, you can cycle 4ths backwards or forwards to add new "positions". Go back one, to G major in that third position, and you're only adding one new fingering. Eventually you'd want to go back one more and get that D major position At the third fret as well, but I would do a different order - first cycling forward to an F position, 3rd fret.

    Anyway, there are only five if you do this, And you're only adding one new fingering at a time. If you're some kind of efficiency nerd, you could skip forward to, but you have to pick up all of them eventually regardless. I am lazier. personally I would just look at this as a long-term organizational approach to the order in which you MIGHT learn things. I would never seek to do ALL of these in any short timeframe.

    Too much text. It's much simpler in practice. I can illustrate slowly if anyone's interested. Would be cool if C Miller got on with video though. Just saying. :-)

  17. #41
    Yeah Matt, don't forget I made the first month for videos 1 AND 2...it would be a bummer to do scale outlines for a month and then do basically the same thing next month

  18. #42

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    I did vid:


  19. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I did vid:

    I'd prefer to learn this lesson the hard way, and then make a thread about how great it is in a couple months

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    I'd prefer to learn this lesson the hard way, and then make a thread about how great it is in a couple months
    I would expect nothing less.

  21. #45

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    This is also how I've been approaching the fretboard in the past year or so. I also discovered this independently and I was very excited about it as I thought it removed a lot of the clutter of the other systems I was using before and allowed for deeper understanding of the fretboard. Then I was happy to find out that there were other people who use/teach this method. It's a great mystery to me why it doesn't get as much attention as, say, CAGED or 3 note per string methods.

  22. #46

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    Joe,

    I'm totally with you. Been doing just as I said, working on running the scales from root to seventh exactly like Chris suggests. Did it as I was planning last night: root on 5th, 4th, and 3rd. Starting with middle finger and then pinky (index and ring finger starting on 3rd string). In C and F (didn't get to Bb or Eb as I was hoping).

    We are all excited about this material. Don't let our side conversations derail the study group. I'm video challenged right now, but I thought I would record a before and after. If I get time in my home office this evening, I'll do the "before" video.

  23. #47

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    I have what is probably a stupid question on one of the scales in the blues progression in Chris' video 1 and in the Barry Harris Workshop Video book 1. Of course in the key of C.

    On all the chords, you start at the root and play up, only playing down if the chord lasts more than one measure. So why in bars 7 and 8 do we ascend the C7, descend th C7 and end on C#. I know the C# chord fits the A7 here, so I'm not questioning this. To keep consistent, I would think in bar 8 we would start on an A note and ascend an A7 scale (A B C# D E F# G) based on what we did against C7 and F7 earlier.

    Is there something he is going to set up later?

    Some background on me. I've been doing the chording side of Barry Harris study for a few years and am really liking what it has been teaching me. Thus decided to launch into single note solo study. I've played Jazz a long time and am comfortable soloing on much stuff but not pro level. I know why the descending line in bar 8 sounds good, just wondered why the departure from the other dominant chord scales.

    Thanks in advance!

  24. #48

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    OK, I had to go home this afternoon and thought I would just shoot the "before" video starting on the scales. After all it all about one take and no editing if I'm going to be honest about it. It is really hard to post a raw video with flubs and all!!! Makes me cringe to watch it, but that is the point.


  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    On all the chords, you start at the root and play up, only playing down if the chord lasts more than one measure. So why in bars 7 and 8 do we ascend the C7, descend th C7 and end on C#. I know the C# chord fits the A7 here, so I'm not questioning this. To keep consistent, I would think in bar 8 we would start on an A note and ascend an A7 scale (A B C# D E F# G) based on what we did against C7 and F7 earlier.
    Here is my take on this. This is a way of playing I7 chord into VI7 chord that addresses a few ways the harmony of bars 7 and 8 of blues is played:
    | I7 | VI7 |
    | I7 | I7 VI7|
    | I7 | iii (minor or half diminished) VI7 |
    or even
    | iii (minor or half diminished) | VI7 |

    Playing the way BH shows addresses all of them reasonably well. Like I said this is my take on it, others may disagree.

  26. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    OK, I had to go home this afternoon and thought I would just shoot the "before" video starting on the scales. After all it all about one take and no editing if I'm going to be honest about it. It is really hard to post a raw video with flubs and all!!! Makes me cringe to watch it, but that is the point.

    Good job, Rhett!

    Are you meaning to play triplets?