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  1. #201

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    Honeysuckle Rose or Montgomery Ward bridge

    You’ll find a lot of tunes with a rhythm A with this brodge

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  3. #202

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    The C7 is an embellishment

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    The bridge goes like this: |Bbm7 |Eb7 |Ab^ | % |C7 |F7 |Bb7 | % |

    EDIT: Upon transcribing the melody as well the bridge actually goes like this |Bbm7 |Eb7 |Ab^ | % |Cm7 |F7 |Fm7 |Bb7 | Bud also plays this in the solo too, you can hear him play roots in his left hand in the bridge, clear as day.
    Update

  5. #204

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    Oh classic Honeysuckle with ii vs then

  6. #205
    well in my opinion bud accidentally played the wrong changes, and he clearly meant rhythm bridge
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  7. #206
    that was a joke.

    anyway, mongomery ward bridge and honeysuckle bridge means the same thing? i had a teacher who called the rhythm turnaround an “ice cream turnaround” is that a thing or was he starting to lose his mind?
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  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    that was a joke.

    anyway, mongomery ward bridge and honeysuckle bridge means the same thing? i had a teacher who called the rhythm turnaround an “ice cream turnaround” is that a thing or was he starting to lose his mind?

    I thought "ice cream changes" were I vi ii V. (Aka, the A section of RC, not the B.)

    I think "Montgomery Ward bridge" and "Honeysuckle Rose bridge" are synonymous. I think the RC bridge is also known as the "Sears & Roebuck bridge."

    Supposedly, Charlie Parker's "Scrapple from the Apple" was the first bop tune written over a "Honeysuckle" A section and a RC B section.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
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  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    that was a joke.

    anyway, mongomery ward bridge and honeysuckle bridge means the same thing? i had a teacher who called the rhythm turnaround an “ice cream turnaround” is that a thing or was he starting to lose his mind?
    I’ve never heard that one

  10. #209
    im going to make a turnaround called “The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Turnaround”
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  11. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I thought "ice cream changes" were I vi ii V. (Aka, the A section of RC, not the B.)
    you could be right, but he definitely taught it the other way round
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  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’ve never heard that one
    It's an American thing.
    Montgomery Ward was a large department store chain. (Long gone now.)
    Sears & Roebuck was too. It became just Sears later and is a minor player now.

    In my mom's generation, a Sears catalog was known as a "wish book." (You look at it and ponder all the things you wish you could buy but you can't, still, it's fun to look and dream...)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  13. #212
    so tying this in with the topic, i think i’ll start doing scale outlines for honeysuckle bridge along woth my rhythm changes and maybe i’ll start hearing it since all i listen to is bebop and apparently it’s all over the place! thanks osmond et al!
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  14. #213
    I7 up and down, IV up and down, II7 up and down, V7 up and down correct?
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  15. #214

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    I hadn’t heard of ice cream changes. The Montgomery ward/sears roebuck names I had heard of although personally I would talk somebody through a tune by saying ‘rhythm changes A honeysuckle B’ - clear to anyone with a basic repetoire.

  16. #215
    christian can you confirm the above
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  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I7 up and down, IV up and down, II7 up and down, V7 up and down correct?
    Bingo

  18. #217
    ugh sorry to be a pest, but should the IV have the #4 scale degree? I know he does that sometimes. for example play cmaj scale from F to E
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  19. #218

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    Nah, not to my ears. It’s preceded by a I7 so it’s like - new key

  20. #219

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    An example of where it could be done is the Dbmaj7 in All the Things - it’s part of the key and not prepared by a secondary dominant.

    But - these things are up for experimentation and subbing etc.

  21. #220
    ok got it and like autumn leaves or whatever
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  22. #221

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  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    im going to make a turnaround called “The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Turnaround”
    I don't think you get to name your own turnaround... The name comes when other musicians need a way to refer to it that everyone on the bandstand understands. And it may just be your name, as in the Tadd Dameron turnaround (aka the Coltrane turnaround).
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  24. #223

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    Who calls it the Trane turnaround?

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Who calls it the Trane turnaround?
    I think this was the first place I saw it.

    Chord Progressions for Songwriters - Richard J. Scott - Google Books
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  26. #225

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    Blues at 200 bpm.



    RC at 200



    Thanks for letting me participate here, nobody studies this stuff on my instrument, thus I'm here.

    I've done Blues and RC in all keys and now working on dominant half step rules plus 5 4 3 2 in all keys. Slow improv in each key for now to get these more into my hands and mind.

    We REALLY need a Barry icon below
    Last edited by Petimar; 09-25-2018 at 09:30 PM.
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  27. #226
    great work, Pete!
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  28. #227

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    So we worked out So Sorry Please but what about strictly confidential, also a RC in the a section but bridge sounds different to I got Rhythm and the honeysuckle. Any takers?

  29. #228
    today i did RC with honeysuckle bridge and blues in Bb in 3rdish position. high and low registers from 100-180 easily, 190 was tough.

    however, i lightened my right hand attack by about 50%, worked up from 190 to 220 by 1 bpm (!) doing the scales with space in between focusing only on high register blues.

    When I dropped back down to 200 I was able to play the whole outline in time, though my picking was so soft that I'm not sure if it was cheating. This is probably good because my default picking is much too hard.

    today was the most time I've spent on this in one session. I'm not a big "faster is better" guy, but 200 bpm is only like medium tempo bebop in my estimation

    Edit: did Ab maj and min 6th dimished scales in drop 2 and drop 3 100 bpm half notes. anyone else workin on these?
    Last edited by joe2758; 09-26-2018 at 08:13 PM.
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  30. #229

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    In Episode 6, Chris outlines the C dominant/diminished scale 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 7 1

    The dominant scale with one extra note we are using on Blues and Rhythm is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 1

    Can the experienced Barry folks tell me where he uses one vs the other?
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
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    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com
    Pete Plays Wes free download
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  31. #230
    the 4 scales of chords are primarily used for harmonic applications, and the default scales for improv are just regular 7 note scales. however, notes get added to the 7 note scales via added note rules.

    this isn’t to say you can’t improvise using the chord scales, as chris demonstrates, it’s just not the default for single line playing
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  32. #231
    today i did RC with honeysuckle bridge and blues in Bb in 5th ish position. 100-190, then separated scales 200-210. Stuck with my light picking technique, but it doesn't make too big a difference it looks like (though it feels smoother). a little discouraged about reaching my goal, but if we stopped now I could say i brought them up by 20 bpm, adjusted my pick angle, got these in my ear and popping out on the fretboard, played with some dynamics, and removed a good deal of tension in both arms. So still a successful addition to my practice I'd say. No time for chord scales today.
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  33. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    today i did RC with honeysuckle bridge and blues in Bb in 5th ish position. 100-190, then separated scales 200-210. Stuck with my light picking technique, but it doesn't make too big a difference it looks like (though it feels smoother). a little discouraged about reaching my goal, but if we stopped now I could say i brought them up by 20 bpm, adjusted my pick angle, got these in my ear and popping out on the fretboard, played with some dynamics, and removed a good deal of tension in both arms. So still a successful addition to my practice I'd say. No time for chord scales today.
    I've been trying to get light picking down for about a year now, trying to do Pasquale/chuck Wayne technique. I found that picking light allowed me to get better sounds out of the guitar too, not to mention it helped with speed a bit too.

  34. #233
    is it basically light economy picking or is there more to it?
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  35. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    is it basically light economy picking or is there more to it?
    Economy picking where the movement comes from thumb and finger. Looks like he uses the arm movement to sweep.


  36. #235

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    I think you were there oz when Barry said playing should always be at the level of conversation - never shouting?

    Joe Henderson springs to mind as a light player who works the mic. Barry taught him too of course. When Barry plays piano he plays exactly strong enough for the mechanism to work and release the hammers: no more.

    My pick technique is not as loud as it used to be but still pretty firm. I used to play a lot of gigs without amplification - one thing I notice was that it often sounded like there was no sustain when I plugged in. What would sound great acoustic could sound very machine gun like when through an amp.

    I feel dynamic contrast is important. Guitarists can sound all on one level, no accents. But the basic level can be as soft as you like.

    I think speed should always be a secondary consideration to tone. I don’t see any reason why speed should suffer though ;-)

  37. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think you were there oz when Barry said playing should always be at the level of conversation - never shouting?

    Joe Henderson springs to mind as a light player who works the mic. Barry taught him too of course. When Barry plays piano he plays exactly strong enough for the mechanism to work and release the hammers: no more.

    My pick technique is not as loud as it used to be but still pretty firm. I used to play a lot of gigs without amplification - one thing I notice was that it often sounded like there was no sustain when I plugged in. What would sound great acoustic could sound very machine gun like when through an amp.

    I feel dynamic contrast is important. Guitarists can sound all on one level, no accents. But the basic level can be as soft as you like.

    I think speed should always be a secondary consideration to tone. I don’t see any reason why speed should suffer though ;-)
    I was there! He's got wisdom about everything. On a side note Christian and David if you're around. Barry is doing workshops in Bologna Italy for 5 days, return tickets are £26 workshop fees for the 5 days are €180.... Only 2 hour flight. Tempting much?

  38. #237
    I need to start actually plugging in my guitar for practice. I have this thing from classical like "make the string move, make the the top vibrate." on acoustic i think that IS the way to get the real sound of a guitar, but for electric i'm starting to think maybe not so much.

    however, does the hollow body even make much difference if we're barely making the body vibrate?
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  39. #238

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    I listen to Passquale Grasso a lot. I have his albums, and love everything about his playing, except his tone. Sound very compressed and bit harsh to me. Is it just me?

  40. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    I listen to Passquale Grasso a lot. I have his albums, and love everything about his playing, except his tone. Sound very compressed and bit harsh to me. Is it just me?


    Back when he played flats.

    I really like his sound on the album with Zaid Nasser 'The Stroller' each note in his single line playing sounds so clear.
    Similar to this:


    Love listening to that ^

  41. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    I was there! He's got wisdom about everything. On a side note Christian and David if you're around. Barry is doing workshops in Bologna Italy for 5 days, return tickets are £26 workshop fees for the 5 days are €180.... Only 2 hour flight. Tempting much?
    When is this happening?

  42. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    When is this happening?
    1st Nov to 5th

  43. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    I listen to Passquale Grasso a lot. I have his albums, and love everything about his playing, except his tone. Sound very compressed and bit harsh to me. Is it just me?

    I don't find the two clips that don_oz posted showed the guitar tone as harsh at all but that's just me.

  44. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I need to start actually plugging in my guitar for practice. I have this thing from classical like "make the string move, make the the top vibrate." on acoustic i think that IS the way to get the real sound of a guitar, but for electric i'm starting to think maybe not so much.

    however, does the hollow body even make much difference if we're barely making the body vibrate?
    Good question.... For me it's kind of a sliding scale, I think I got a little to used to having the acoustic sound there which was fine for swing bands and quiet little groups, but when I play with more of stick as opposed to brush drums, it becomes a different ball game.

    TBH when you are amplified beyond a certain level you may as well play a solid body in terms of what's coming out of the amp, although it obviously feels different to you.

    Muting is the single biggest issue for me TBH. The need for it and how I have to adapt my technique CHANGES from room to room, band to band, depending on where the amps is and so on.

  45. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    1st Nov to 5th
    Cool mate - I seriously doubt I'll be able to make that with the little one etc, but you should go!

  46. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post


    Back when he played flats.

    I really like his sound on the album with Zaid Nasser 'The Stroller' each note in his single line playing sounds so clear.
    Similar to this:


    Love listening to that ^
    I have his album ‘in the mood for a classic’ (and also his solo album) great album, his tone there not so much. But who cares about that now, now I got two more albums to check out. The stroller, and Merci Toots. So I’m glad we had this chat, thanks!

  47. #246
    no practicing, just playing today with backing tracks. doing rhythm changes and blues and I can now say with certainty there is a 100% improvement in my phrasing for both after drilling these outlines. fantastic!
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  48. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    I have his album ‘in the mood for a classic’ (and also his solo album) great album, his tone there not so much. But who cares about that now, now I got two more albums to check out. The stroller, and Merci Toots. So I’m glad we had this chat, thanks!
    Was hipped to an album called wail by the fat bros quintet (Pasquale and Luigi. Grasso) too by David B. Check it out too!

  49. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    no practicing, just playing today with backing tracks. doing rhythm changes and blues and I can now say with certainty there is a 100% improvement in my phrasing for both after drilling these outlines. fantastic!
    Post a video! (If you want to, no pressure)

  50. #249
    maybe this weekend-- it would be my first time posting actual improv so the idea makes me a little nervous. Either way tonight felt like a sign that i have been practicing the right stuff
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  51. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    Was hipped to an album called wail by the fat bros quintet (Pasquale and Luigi. Grasso) too by David B. Check it out too!

    Found it on Apple Music. Wow, the energies on this album!
    At first I looked at the album cover, and it didn’t quite look like pasquale, but as soon as the guitar started, there was no mistake!

    Thanks for the pointers. Love it.