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  1. #151
    It is for beginners, just not only for beginners.

    I think the best way to practice is to set specific goals and work toward them. For instance, mine is to play both these outlines at 200 bpm up and down the fret board and any register without too much effort. I will probably fall short of that by the end, therefore a month doesn't seem overly long.

    Everyone's goal should be specific to them. If someone is reading this and has been playing guitar for 6 months, playing both outlines at a slow tempo in one position could take a month. That could possibly be a good goal for them.

    Christian, for example on the opposite end, can play this shit easily. if he was so inclined he could still challenge himself with a month long goal. Quicker tempos, different positions, endurance, playing them "backwards," pivoting, etc...

    He would probably add it as a warm up or something before his real practice. as where our 6 month beginner may spend 75% of their practice on this.

    So, the spirit of the thread should be: in one month, what would you like to achieve with this specific chunk of material? If someone says "I want to understand it and run through a few times to make sure it clicks," that's perfectly fine, but they'd achieve that goal long before the month is up.

    The momentum of the thread should come from the participants posting about progress and challenges in their attempt to achieve their goals, or new goals if they achieve their first ones early. Then we all support each other; practicing can be lonely if you don't know a single person in real life who understands the challenge.

    As musicians we are primarily practicers, not primarily learners. So, in my opinion we don't need more material faster to keep things fresh, we need more goals set and accomplished
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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152
    ps don't forget about the chord scales guys!
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  4. #153

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    I just noticed tonight that I don’t really hear the blues progression behind the scale outline. Anyone else? I mean it’s there, but in a 1950 rock ‘n’ roll blues sort of way. I think my ear wants the individual chords, especially subs, outlined. The one place that I really do hear the sub quite clearly is the I major down to the third of the VI7.

  5. #154

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    Makes sense. Like one of those marathon groups. Everyone is training for a different personal best, but the camaraderie helps everyone keep going. We can talk about how one might train for a marathon, but that's not the central point. The point is helping each other make our PR.

    I haven't systematically practiced scales in decades. After a week and a half, I'm at full blown frustration level. My fingers have forgotten how to do anything else. I fall asleep hearing the scales in my head. Heck, it's running through my head RIGHT NOW. But I'm nothing if not stubborn. I will finish this month of daily practice doing my cycle. I am looking forward to adding more musical exercises soon, but I assume running these scales will be a part of my daily routine from now on out for whatever piece I want to work on.

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    I just noticed tonight that I don’t really hear the blues progression behind the scale outline. Anyone else? I mean it’s there, but in a 1950 rock ‘n’ roll blues sort of way. I think my ear wants the individual chords, especially subs, outlined. The one place that I really do hear the sub quite clearly is the I major down to the third of the VI7.
    I hear you. If you had played this to me ten years ago when all I played was Mississippi John Hurt and Blind Blake (especially at 200bpm) I would have told you that meth is a dangerous drug and you really should cut back.


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  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Nice groove! Yes!

  8. #157

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    I’d like to use this forum to set myself some challenges.... on hols next week. Will be away from my guitar but will prob end up thinking of things to work on.

    Everyone’s at different levels of course but hopefully you can appreciate there’s always stuff that will make one stop and think.

  9. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’d like to use this forum to set myself some challenges.... on hols next week. Will be away from my guitar but will prob end up thinking of things to work on.

    Everyone’s at different levels of course but hopefully you can appreciate there’s always stuff that will make one stop and think.
    Have a good time. Thanks for making that video first. Great stuff.

  10. #159
    Here's where I am "cold" on these blues scales this week. Not where I want to be, but this is just kind of practicing them. I can play any of them pretty well if I play them for a couple of minutes, but that's not really my goal. This week I'm just going to memorize a couple of positions cold on blues and RC. I almost feel like I needed to have done this on a little of all of it, in order to decide which ones I want to work on.

    I missed the original inclusion of RC. So, that kind of changes my stated goals, I guess. Mostly want to practice a couple of positions really well I think.



    The following may be basic to many, but I thought I'd post, in case there's anyone who might find it useful. Just my personal take on using scales to address technique:


    ...and cycling scale fingerings:
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-21-2018 at 10:31 AM.

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Here's where I am "cold" on these blues scales this week. Not where I want to be, but this is just kind of practicing them. I can play any of them pretty well if I play them for a couple of minutes, but that's not really my goal. This week I'm just going to memorize a couple of positions cold on blues and RC. I almost feel like I needed to have done this on a little of all of it, in order to decide which ones I want to work on.

    I missed the original inclusion of RC. So, that kind of changes my stated goals, I guess. Mostly want to practice a couple of positions really well I think.



    The following may be basic to many, but I thought I'd post, in case there's anyone who might find it useful. Just my personal take on using scales to address technique:
    Good stuff Matt - you can also run the Eb7 scale down to E togetEo7

  12. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Good stuff Matt - you can also run the Eb7 scale down to E togetEo7
    Cool. It's that how dude plays it here, or a variation? I already learned it wrong once before this version... :-)

  13. #162

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    Dunno, haven’t watched the vids - probably should!

    There’s usually a few variations with the scale oitlines

  14. #163
    the TILF BH guy plays the basic 4 up and down, but that is a cool variation Christian
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  15. #164
    Today I did RC and blues in Db at 3rd-ish position, upper register followed by lower register each time. 100-180 pretty easily, 190 strained, and at 200 I was able to get the upper register blues. Making progress, because I think originally things were falling apart after 170.

    Chords: Eb7b5 dim drop 3 lowest to highest and back 100 bpm half notes
    Eb6 maj dim drop 2 lowest to highest and back 100 bpm half notes
    Ebmin 6 dim drop 2 lowest to highest and back 100 bpm half notes.

    didn't try to push tempo with the chords...just wasn't feeling it
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  16. #165

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    3rd position is the best sounding position. The study of the fretboard is just a pathway to making sure you can play everything below B above the treble clef around 3rd position. Imo

  17. #166

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    I’m not there yet lol

  18. #167

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    It’s a pain in the butt for reading sometimes

  19. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    3rd position is the best sounding position. The study of the fretboard is just a pathway to making sure you can play everything below B above the treble clef around 3rd position. Imo
    So with added note scales and such, how do you determine which and how many positions to develop things in? I'd view this kind of thing is a continuum , with one extreme being you learn everything to death all the way through in one position first .... and the other extreme being you that you learn everything, all along the way, in multiple positions.

    I would assume the best is a kind of middle ground. My own personal inclination is to learn new stuff in one or two positions , and then, along the way, go back and develop new positions for older/easier material?

    Beyond that, I know that tune- specific considerations make decisions for you.

  20. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s a pain in the butt for reading sometimes
    You mean 3rd position specifically?

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    You mean 3rd position specifically?
    Yeah cos you need to do more travelling than you would for a higher position - or so it seems to me. A lot of music is sort of 5th position with upper extensions.

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    So with added note scales and such, how do you determine which and how many positions to develop things in? I'd view this kind of thing is a continuum , with one extreme being you learn everything to death all the way through in one position first .... and the other extreme being you that you learn everything, all along the way, in multiple positions.

    I would assume the best is a kind of middle ground. My own personal inclination is to learn new stuff in one or two positions , and then, along the way, go back and develop new positions for older/easier material?

    Beyond that, I know that tune- specific considerations make decisions for you.
    Yeah the guitar just kind of pops in that area. Mike Moreno points this out and now I can’t unhear it.

    High position low strings is just so woolly and non descript. Probably good if you want a very round and closed type of sound, but not if you want to cut.

    In terms of fingerings there are some which flow better than others, but I think you can deal with this and still be in that sweet spot on the guitar.

    Julian Bream talked about this btw - the different colours of the different positions.

    I don’t think this is an excuse for not learning the fretboard - exactly the opposite. But every guitar will have a slightly different response.

  23. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    Duuuude you should post a video too recording yourself is a great way to hear if you're heading in the right direction. And it will be good for everyone else too to see if they can hear things they notice from the BH approach. Stuff like 5432 or Tri tones or other movements. We will also get to hear how people use them in their own context.
    my guitar mentor emailed me last night after reading some of this thread and said something like “go play some F*ing lines.” so don’t get the wrong idea everyone, i’m focusing on technique with the scales and chord scales (i have neglected technique a long time), but i play lines and tunes as well.

    Here’s a blues, devices used: added notes, triplets, 3 phrase, 5 phrase, turnaround to 2 with the major scale down to 3rd of G7, 2 jimmy raney licks



    I have noticed a huge improvement in my phrasing for both blues and rhythm changes, as well as the ability to map them out through the fretboard more clearly
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  24. #173

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    Temporarily reunited with my guitar. Had like 30 minutes of quality time with it and Barry’s scales. Tried to have some fun along the way. Second chorus comes with some twists:

    Last edited by tamirgal; 09-22-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    my guitar mentor emailed me last night after reading some of this thread and said something like “go play some F*ing lines.” so don’t get the wrong idea everyone, i’m focusing on technique with the scales and chord scales (i have neglected technique a long time), but i play lines and tunes as well.

    Here’s a blues, devices used: added notes, triplets, 3 phrase, 5 phrase, turnaround to 2 with the major scale down to 3rd of G7, 2 jimmy raney licks



    I have noticed a huge improvement in my phrasing for both blues and rhythm changes, as well as the ability to map them out through the fretboard more clearly
    Nice mellow lines man.
    You practice without backing track or click? I can’t do that, would get lost in time eventually.
    You played that Bb 5 phrase on the Cm7-F7 on bar 9, right? Try either playing that when the chord is Bb, it might work bit better. On bar 9, you can try 5 phrase in F.
    I like to put a 5 in Bb on bar 7, and then link it somehow into the 3rd of G7.

  26. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Nice mellow lines man.
    You practice without backing track or click? I can’t do that, would get lost in time eventually.
    You played that Bb 5 phrase on the Cm7-F7 on bar 9, right? Try either playing that when the chord is Bb, it might work bit better. On bar 9, you can try 5 phrase in F.
    I like to put a 5 in Bb on bar 7, and then link it somehow into the 3rd of G7.
    i use backing tracks, metronomes, and drum genius all the time, but when i record on my phone i do t think i can have it going.

    The 5 phrase is in f though
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  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    The 5 phrase is in f though
    I see. My bad then.

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    my guitar mentor emailed me last night after reading some of this thread and said something like “go play some F*ing lines.” so don’t get the wrong idea everyone, i’m focusing on technique with the scales and chord scales (i have neglected technique a long time), but i play lines and tunes as well.

    Here’s a blues, devices used: added notes, triplets, 3 phrase, 5 phrase, turnaround to 2 with the major scale down to 3rd of G7, 2 jimmy raney licks



    I have noticed a huge improvement in my phrasing for both blues and rhythm changes, as well as the ability to map them out through the fretboard more clearly
    Very nice!

  29. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Temporarily reunited with my guitar. Had like 30 minutes of quality time with it and Barry’s scales. Tried to have some fun along the way. Second chorus comes with some twists:

    I like the way there was a bit of a natural evolution between the scale outlines and towards lines.

  30. #179

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    Try recording a solo without click and comp (or just say the beat) along with the recording. That’ll tell you how well you can keep time without a click. It’s a real eye opener!

    I swap between practicing with a click and without - I think both have something to teach us, but ultimately the aim is not to play with something, it’s to state your own time.

  31. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Try recording a solo without click and comp (or just say the beat) along with the recording. That’ll tell you how well you can keep time without a click. It’s a real eye opener!

    I swap between practicing with a click and without - I think both have something to teach us, but ultimately the aim is not to play with something, it’s to state your own time.
    I don't need to do that, because I already know I can't keep time without a click... lol
    When we say keep time, do we mean losing tempo, or do we mean getting lost in the changes. Because I do both!

    Seriously, I'm amazed by the ability of players to play solo setup when it's not a rubato kind of thing. This is something that'll take me lifetime to develop.

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Seriously, I'm amazed by the ability of players to play solo setup when it's not a rubato kind of thing. This is something that'll take me lifetime to develop.
    Actually this is how I usually practise tunes now, although I do spend a long time really getting to know the sound of the changes first. It sort of developed by accident, because I just couldn’t be bothered with the time and hassle of getting up a backing track on my ageing desktop (I didn’t have iReal or iPad or anything like that at the time). I just wanted to grab the guitar and play, and eventually I realised I could manage ok without the crutch of backing tracks etc.

    I do like to use a metronome sometimes though. But even there, it’s good to try your time without it sometimes, you have to fall back on your ‘internal clock’ as it were.

  33. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    I don't need to do that, because I already know I can't keep time without a click... lol
    When we say keep time, do we mean losing tempo, or do we mean getting lost in the changes. Because I do both!

    Seriously, I'm amazed by the ability of players to play solo setup when it's not a rubato kind of thing. This is something that'll take me lifetime to develop.
    Yeah but you can key into the mistakes that you make and find strategies for working on them. For instance I tend to gravitate to a ‘pet tempos’ for a given tune, usually rushing the original tempo until I click into that tempo; and tend to drop beats when playing melodies. It’s pretty embarrassing.

    A simple one is to count the beat through everything you play. Easier said than done.

    And to play with a metronome at in between tempos like 127 and 163.

    Going back and forth between practice and recording and you notice an improvement. Then it becomes rewarding.

    Peter Bernstein says if you can hear and phrase the melody of a tune at that tempo, you can play it at that tempo. Simple really, but easy to forget.

  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I like the way there was a bit of a natural evolution between the scale outlines and towards lines.
    Thanks. Everything there is within the Barry Harris scale exercises. Play the dominant up and down and finish it with the "4" phrase. On bar 7 it was play the major scale down to the 5 then do "5", "4", "3", then down to the 3rd of A7, etc.

    Most folks don't know where to go next after being able to play scale outlines. I think it's a natural next step, combine the ABCs with the scales practice.

  35. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Thanks. Everything there is within the Barry Harris scale exercises. Play the dominant up and down and finish it with the "4" phrase. On bar 7 it was play the major scale down to the 5 then do "5", "4", "3", then down to the 3rd of A7, etc.

    Most folks don't know where to go next after being able to play scale outlines. I think it's a natural next step, combine the ABCs with the scales practice.
    I like it - it’s not something I have ever done myself, but I think it’s a good tool for teaching for sure .

  36. #185

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    Thanks to Chris’ videos, I’m getting into this BH scale stuff. I don’t usually play scales much, but I like this approach of mapping them onto tunes and the one octave thing, kind of makes more sense to me. Also I’ve done a lot of the BH chord stuff with Alan’s book, so it makes sense to now explore the single-note side as well. Anyway I’ve been doing the scales on tunes like Donna Lee, Hot House and How Deep Is The Ocean. Not really worrying about speed, just exploring the idea.

    It does seem to generate some new ideas and help navigating the tunes better, I like that. I already seem to know a lot of the bop devices e.g. half steps, pivots etc. because that’s what I’ve been learning from the records for years. But it’ll be interesting to explore them more systematically than before.

    Anyway as a start I’ve ordered the Talk Jazz Guitar book so I’ve got something a bit more structured to follow than just watching the videos.

  37. #186

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    Yeah I think BH works great as a way of consolidating and developing ‘transcribed’ material. That’s the way I used it because I could already play a bit of bop before I started getting into BH properly and had been studying heads and solos for a while.

    I see it as a way of going beyond simply regurgitating licks and getting into ways you can vary them a bit more.

    You can build it up for the ground up, but I think there’s a tacit understanding that you are listening a lot - not transcribing necessarily, but listening out for stuff and repeating phrases as you hear them.

    One thing I can now do that I couldn’t do 5 years ago, is recognise ‘words’ in the bop vocabulary at tempo. Sometimes I don’t know a word and have to slow it down and work it out, but for straightforward stuff like Mobley, grant green etc I hear it pretty much first time. Jimmy Raney maybe a little less lol. But that’s the goal, right? Information in —> information out.

    That’s what’s Barry’s classes actually model in real time.

  38. #187

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    I’ve been getting a lot of inspiration from this track by Barry, as it’s a tune I keep working on. I love the sort of ‘lazy swing’ he has and also the way he punches in some notes with more weight than the others, that is a big part of his style I think. Shows that dynamics and rhythmic emphasis are really important too.


  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post


    Tried a chorus on rhythm changes trying to stick to the outline and add some Barry Harris stuff. Getting back into the practice! Yay!

    I don’t know how I missed this, this is pure gold!
    Thanks!

  40. #189
    interesting side note, i’m recognozig tunes as being rhythm changes that i didn’t realize were before. just now it was “so sorry, please” and i’m like how didn’t i notice this before?
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  41. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    I don’t know how I missed this, this is pure gold!
    Thanks!
    Thanks a lot! Glad you dig it! Listening back now I don't think I like the sound of the thomastiks could be the mic but don't like the sound. Time to try something else. Also the playing could be tighter, quite sloppy. Need to play with more intention.

  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    Thanks a lot! Glad you dig it! Listening back now I don't think I like the sound of the thomastiks could be the mic but don't like the sound. Time to try something else. Also the playing could be tighter, quite sloppy. Need to play with more intention.
    You worry about all that. And I’ll worry about transcribing what you did there..

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    interesting side note, i’m recognozig tunes as being rhythm changes that i didn’t realize were before. just now it was “so sorry, please” and i’m like how didn’t i notice this before?
    Saw this and decided to listen again, on the way back from teaching because I always knew the A sections were RC, but the bridge is a bit different for the first 4 bars I think at least.

  44. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    You worry about all that. And I’ll worry about transcribing what you did there..
    There is a mistake, after I play Dm7 Dbm7 Cm7 Bmaj7 then 4 to the 3rd of Bb I wanted to run down Bb7 with one half step to the b7 of Bb.

  45. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    Saw this and decided to listen again, on the way back from teaching because I always knew the A sections were RC, but the bridge is a bit different for the first 4 bars I think at least.
    hah k well nevermind my ear still sucks
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  46. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    hah k well nevermind my ear still sucks
    Man, my ear sucks too. The A sections are definitely based on RC clear as day, but it sounds like in the first 4 bars of the B section revolves to a Major chord first instead of going round the cycle from the start

  47. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    Man, my ear sucks too. The A sections are definitely based on RC clear as day, but it sounds like in the first 4 bars of the B section revolves to a Major chord first instead of going round the cycle from the start
    But have you listen to the soloing part? I think that’s straight RC, isn’t it?

  48. #197
    so i don't know what key it's in, but in B flat you mean the B section is like

    Dmaj-D7-Gmaj-G7-Cmaj-C7-Fmaj-F7?
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  49. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    But have you listen to the soloing part? I think that’s straight RC, isn’t it?
    YES I win
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  50. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    so i don't know what key it's in, but in B flat you mean the B section is like

    Dmaj-D7-Gmaj-G7-Cmaj-C7-Fmaj-F7?
    It's in Eb



    But can you see, it's not a straight rhythm bridge, I'll transcribe bud's recording today and see.

  51. #200

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    The bridge goes like this: |Bbm7 |Eb7 |Ab^ | % |C7 |F7 |Bb7 | % |

    EDIT: Upon transcribing the melody as well the bridge actually goes like this |Bbm7 |Eb7 |Ab^ | % |Cm7 |F7 |Fm7 |Bb7 | Bud also plays this in the solo too, you can hear him play roots in his left hand in the bridge, clear as day.
    Last edited by don_oz; 09-25-2018 at 07:16 AM.