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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Do you give the chord tones of the dominant the same weight when playing over the m7b5 as you would over the dominant itself?
    Yes. That's the basic way we do ....

    Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Bb7 Bo7 Cm basically

    If you want to bring out the m7b5, you can play the m6/dim (Am6 = F#m7b5 for instance.)

    Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Dm6 Do7 Cm

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  3. #102
    today i did rhythm changes and blues in C in 5th-ish position (lower and higher register). worked up from 100-190, and i think I bassssically getting 190-- or at least nearly there. I did 200 and 210 individual scales with beats in between.

    Then, when I was doing that, I isolated my picking and determined that's likely my problem (I've NEVER worked on my picking hand, besides classical). So then I tried that nerdy grip you guys do where it slants up instead of down, and I'll tell you what it felt smoother and no so foreign that it would take a long time to get used to.

    So I'll spend the rest of my practice session doing the outlines with this new pick angle
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  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    you guys still plugging away at the lesson?
    Yes I am. Feeling comfortable with blues and rhythm in all keys, so I am adding a bunch of other tunes and applying the scales to them, thus the questions. Sorry for temporarily hijacking the thread.
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  5. #104
    Hi-jack away!

    This new pick angle friggin rules, I was connecting the scales at 200 already. I don't think I've made an improvement that quickly and easily in my life. There is hope yet
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  6. #105

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    What like Benson picking?

  7. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    What like Benson picking?
    Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group-angle-2-jpgThings I learned from Barry Harris Study Group-slant-1-jpg

    from the electric guitar picture to the acoustic guitar way
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  8. #107
    if i had to guess it's because the new way i naturally have more of an angle...the pick was more flat my old way. the direction of the angle i guess doesn't matter much?

    edit: correction, I re-examined and before I was pretty much flat even though I thought i angled
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  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yes. That's the basic way we do ....

    Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Bb7 Bo7 Cm basically

    If you want to bring out the m7b5, you can play the m6/dim (Am6 = F#m7b5 for instance.)

    Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Dm6 Do7 Cm
    Thanks. I think it's that Bo7 that I stumble with. Minor ii-V-i lines starting out with Bb7 scale sound great, but unlike the major ii-V-I, where you can keep going with the Bb7, you need a little sumthin'-sumthin' on the G7b9. Are you hearing "move into Do", or are you hearing, "flat the 9 of Bb7"? Sorry to derail—this is something I've been wondering about for a while.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    you guys still plugging away at the lesson?
    Not as dedicated as I'd like to be, but doing my best. I am sticking within the fingering limitations imposed on my by Richie Zellon at this point—helps to keep me focused when I don't have a ton of time. I am not concerning myself with speed too much–working at 140 bpm for now.

  11. #110

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    Ok, just to keep me honest. Here is after one week of practice. Again, a rough take with mistakes and all. Not going for a performance piece here!


  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    if i had to guess it's because the new way i naturally have more of an angle...the pick was more flat my old way. the direction of the angle i guess doesn't matter much?

    edit: correction, I re-examined and before I was pretty much flat even though I thought i angled
    Well you wouldn't fingerpick with your nails parallel to the strings, would you?

    EDIT: before I realised this I used to use very think picks with slanted sides of a bevel in them - Dunlop Big Stubby's, Wegen's, that sort of thing. The effect is the same - to create an angle in the pick as it meets the string.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Thanks. I think it's that Bo7 that I stumble with. Minor ii-V-i lines starting out with Bb7 scale sound great, but unlike the major ii-V-I, where you can keep going with the Bb7, you need a little sumthin'-sumthin' on the G7b9. Are you hearing "move into Do", or are you hearing, "flat the 9 of Bb7"? Sorry to derail—this is something I've been wondering about for a while.
    Yeah I think the basic way of doing this AFAIK is just playing some line on the Bb7 and then linking it to the Cm chord or whatever using the diminished seventh arpeggio to make a stepwise connection with an obvious chord tone of the next chord. For instance:

    Dm7b5 G7b9 | Cm6

    Using Bb7 on Dm7b5

    F Eb D C B D F Ab | G
    D C Bb A Ab B D F | Eb
    Bb A Ab G F Ab B D | Eb

    etc

    Simple, but effective.

    If you don't want to spend ages playing the dim7 and sound like Yngwie on a prog like WITCL I would suggest only doing it at the last minute.

    So
    Gm7b5 | C7b9 | Fm

    Play on Eb7 for a bar and a bit and then just use the dim7 to link at the end of bar two. So it's kinda

    Gm7b5 | / / C7b9 | Fm

    Now, there's lots of other strategies, but that does well as a start.

  14. #113

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    Oh I forgot my favourite

    Eb D C Bb B D F Ab | G

    See that neat little enclosure of the 3rd of G7b9?

  15. #114

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    Nice examples. Obviously same diminished ideas can also be played on major ii-V-I as well. And also, each diminished line or arpeggio can be pivoted which gives even more options.

    Here's a compilation of diminished lines that resolves to a minor chord. All those line start on the third of the dominant, and each line has its related pivoted line:

    Diminished Resolution.pdf - Google Drive

    Most of these lines are commonly used by either Barry or Charlie Parker. Those are just examples, I guess lots of other options to play when reaching the third of the dominant.

    Hope it's useful.

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I would suggest only doing it at the last minute.

    So
    Gm7b5 | C7b9 | Fm

    Play on Eb7 for a bar and a bit and then just use the dim7 to link at the end of bar two. So it's kinda

    Gm7b5 | / / C7b9 | Fm

    Now, there's lots of other strategies, but that does well as a start.
    Right, so for bar two, Barry say to play Eb7 down to the 3rd of C7. So I can almost hear him say, for bar two continue your Eb7 idea, and when you reach the 3rd of C7 just play some diminished lick.

  17. #116

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    Here's a line Barry played on Hot House:

    Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group-screen-shot-2018-09-18-15-53-27-jpg

    On the Dm7b5 he plays a Bb7 line - start on the 6th of Bb7, put 1 half step to reach the 5th, and from there down the important minor arpeggio.
    Then on the G7 he continue the Bb7 line, from the 4th of Bb7 down the scale till reaching the 3rd of G7, and from there a diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of C. Then he continues by playing his "4" and then his "3" phrase.

    Playing that 4 phrase right after that diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of the I is something he seem to do often, both are common bebop enclosures.

  18. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well you wouldn't fingerpick with your nails parallel to the strings, would you.
    omg i bet that’s why they threw tomatos at me and pulled me off the stage with a giant hook lol

    edit: into a vat of cream pies
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  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Here's a line Barry played on Hot House:

    Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group-screen-shot-2018-09-18-15-53-27-jpg

    On the Dm7b5 he plays a Bb7 line - start on the 6th of Bb7, put 1 half step to reach the 5th, and from there down the important minor arpeggio.
    Then on the G7 he continue the Bb7 line, from the 4th of Bb7 down the scale till reaching the 3rd of G7, and from there a diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of C. Then he continues by playing his "4" and then his "3" phrase.

    Playing that 4 phrase right after that diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of the I is something he seem to do often, both are common bebop enclosures.
    A slightly more advanced application, but the same basic logic.

    EDIT - that leap from F to Eb is a nice example of a pivot in a scale.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    If you want to bring out the m7b5, you can play the m6/dim (Am6 = F#m7b5 for instance.)

    Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Dm6 Do7 Cm
    Christian, here do you mean Fm6 Do7 Cm?

    By the way, thanks to everyone for the half diminished discussion. I must be thick headed but Ive rally had trouble wrapping my head around how it works...
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  21. #120

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  22. #121

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  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah I think the basic way of doing this AFAIK is just playing some line on the Bb7 and then linking it to the Cm chord or whatever using the diminished seventh arpeggio to make a stepwise connection with an obvious chord tone of the next chord. For instance:

    Now, there's lots of other strategies, but that does well as a start.
    If I may say so, you’ve given me a serious jazz bone. Your posts connects a lot of “how to apply this stuff” BH dots for me. Thank you.

  24. #123
    Did rhythm changes and blues in Ab in 4th-ish position. 100-180 clean enough. 190-200 with breaks between phrases. 210 for shits (can play some scales up...that's about it).

    Even though I'm not playing faster than last time, the new pick angle still feels smoother.

    if anyone is bored, try playing all the scales down..or every other scale down from the 7th. I do it at the slower tempos when I'm getting warmed up sometimes. I think in the workshop book it says a one bar phrase is a scale "up or down"
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  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    EDIT - that leap from F to Eb is a nice example of a pivot in a scale.
    Nice observation. Now I’m noticing he’s doing this quite often.

  26. #125
    Chris has done a great job organizing the material, and i am also going to take a few liberties in terms of the study group (hey, no one else volunteerd!)

    so, i am officially adding Chris’ lesson #6 for long term study. That means it is such a large undertaking that i personally think we should all practice it everyday. I know all these patterns by now, but playing them at real tempos is challenging, plus some of the grips have stretches.

    4 scales of chords, drop 2 has 3 string sets, drop 3 has 2 string sets, drop 2&4 has 2 string sets (everyone seems to agree these should be a secondary priority, but they can be VERY nice for solo guitar arrangements).

    The original assigment hasn’t changed but this is added and will be there for the duration of the group or until you can play them like Pasquale Grasso.

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  27. #126

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    Working through this solo today - It's hard not to hear Grant Green as a Barry student* lol. Gm6/dim



    On transcribing the solo, the number of times he plays that little D Eb D C Bb A G F# A C Eb phrase is actually quite droll. Works great though. Don't be afraid of repetition.

    * I don't think he was lol. PC on the session, though.

  28. #127

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    Yes. Grant Green has this lick all over the place. It’s all over the albums with Sonny Clark, and others as well. Doesn’t matter if its minor or major 2-5, he has it under his fingers. Personally i never have enough when he does it. When it swings it swings.

    I assume he copied it from charlie parker.

    Which solo exactly are you talking about? Is it what is this thing called love?

  29. #128

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    Um, the one I posted?

  30. #129

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    Ahh. Oops. The video didn’t came up on my tapatalk.
    Love that album!

  31. #130

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    OK, I don't want to spam a load of my videos on this thread, but it relates to a conversation above - dim connections. Running through a few variations. Real practice so you get to see me stop and think if that helps.


  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Um, the one I posted?
    I think I counted at least 12 instances of that lick! It’s no longer a lick its a theme..
    Last edited by tamirgal; 09-19-2018 at 03:57 PM.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    OK, I don't want to spam a load of my videos on this thread, but it relates to a conversation above - dim connections. Running through a few variations. Real practice so you get to see me stop and think if that helps.

    Nice. Love the sound of your guitar there. Bright and punchy.

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    OK, I don't want to spam a load of my videos on this thread, but it relates to a conversation above - dim connections. Running through a few variations.
    i personally like to see videos like this when it pertains to the material being talked about. Thanks Christian, was cool to hear examples and how you systematically went through all of these and found ones you liked.
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  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Here's a line Barry played on Hot House:

    Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group-screen-shot-2018-09-18-15-53-27-jpg

    On the Dm7b5 he plays a Bb7 line - start on the 6th of Bb7, put 1 half step to reach the 5th, and from there down the important minor arpeggio.
    Then on the G7 he continue the Bb7 line, from the 4th of Bb7 down the scale till reaching the 3rd of G7, and from there a diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of C. Then he continues by playing his "4" and then his "3" phrase.

    Playing that 4 phrase right after that diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of the I is something he seem to do often, both are common bebop enclosures.
    How long it takes/ took you to get this lick under fingers at some reasonable tempo, l160 bpm for example, with your own natural accents and phrasing?
    While doing it, do you have theory and physical aspect together, as one, do you apply "important minor arpeggio", "4", "3",... directly to fretboard, or you have one intermediate step of translating it to some standard set of positions and fingerings'?
    To put it another way, are you finding "BH" devices within standard fingerings, or you are developing custom fretboard maps to suit "BH speak"?
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  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Chris has done a great job organizing the material, and i am also going to take a few liberties in terms of the study group (hey, no one else volunteerd!)

    so, i am officially adding Chris’ lesson #6 for long term study. That means it is such a large undertaking that i personally think we should all practice it everyday. I know all these patterns by now, but playing them at real tempos is challenging, plus some of the grips have stretches.

    4 scales of chords, drop 2 has 3 string sets, drop 3 has 2 string sets, drop 2&4 has 2 string sets (everyone seems to agree these should be a secondary priority, but they can be VERY nice for solo guitar arrangements).

    The original assigment hasn’t changed but this is added and will be there for the duration of the group or until you can play them like Pasquale Grasso.

    I don’t know how many people are doing this as a study group, but I was thinking you may want to speed up the assignments. Two weeks of blues and RC is probably enough to understand the concepts and incorporate the ideas into our practice.

    This video certainly deserves its own time. Chris seems to follow the structure of the Howard Rees Workshop DVDs. I like the idea of following them linearly without too much jumping around. Although I acknowledge that many people have probably lost interest in the original two videos.

    Speeding things up a little will also help keep the group more focused.

    What do you think?


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  37. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I don’t know how many people are doing this as a study group, but I was thinking you may want to speed up the assignments. Two weeks of blues and RC is probably enough to understand the concepts and incorporate the ideas into our practice.

    This video certainly deserves its own time. Chris seems to follow the structure of the Howard Rees Workshop DVDs. I like the idea of following them linearly without too much jumping around. Although I acknowledge that many people have probably lost interest in the original two videos.

    Speeding things up a little will also help keep the group more focused.

    What do you think?


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    Good point Rhett. For m personally at this point in my study, I already understood everything in his videos before we started. My goal was to drill it in (doing that practice, not learning it to practice later), and that can get stale...but that's what works for me. I can play all the scales of chords, learned the single note rules, the ABCs, 54332.... now I'm at the point where I need to buckle down and do the work, so it takes longer to completely absorb this stuff (and at Barry Harris tempos) than it takes to understand it.

    Anyone want to break the tie?

    as for the off-topic ness, nothing to really do about that...probably jsut got confusing/annoying with like 4 BH threads. I've been posting after each practice session, though
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  38. #137

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    And awaaaaaaaaay we go







    Tired and messy and out of practice all that jazz.

  39. #138
    that's what im talkin about!
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  40. #139
    Alrighty, today was:

    SCALES: rhythm changes and blues in G in 4th-ish position, higher register and lower register of the position. 100 bpm-180 clean. 190 sloppy.

    but THEN, i switched to upper register only and did scales by themselves with extra rest in between 190-220 (220 was basically a no-go) however, when I dropped it back down I was scraping by through the outlines at 200!

    Chords: Eb maj 6/dim, Eb min 6/dim, and Eb7/dim in drop 3 from lowest up an octave to roughly the highest. 100 bpm quarter notes
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  41. #140

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    Tried a chorus on rhythm changes trying to stick to the outline and add some Barry Harris stuff. Getting back into the practice! Yay!

  42. #141
    keep ‘em coming osmond. it’s good for people on here to see examples of what all this stuff is leading to (and you’re better than me).

    unless anyone else speaks up and agrees with rhett that we should move on, we still have almost 3 more weeks.

    don’t forget we doing chord scales too
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  43. #142

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    I think the month should stay devoted to this topic. If you feel like you have it down, see Christian's recommendations for other ways to practice the material.

  44. #143
    i agree (obviously). somewhere BH said something like “someone came up to me and said they were bored of practicing the major scale; that person was a FOOL” there’s endless ways to practice the stuff
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  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    keep ‘em coming osmond. it’s good for people on here to see examples of what all this stuff is leading to (and you’re better than me).
    Duuuude you should post a video too recording yourself is a great way to hear if you're heading in the right direction. And it will be good for everyone else too to see if they can hear things they notice from the BH approach. Stuff like 5432 or Tri tones or other movements. We will also get to hear how people use them in their own context.

  46. #145

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    To be clear, I don't think a month isn't enough to "have it down". It will take a lifetime. If you believe in the system BH teaches, I don't think you ever "stop" running the scales, do you? The point is about the pacing of the study group, not about what it takes to master your instrument. It's about learning to practice in Barry Harris' method, not practicing for the benefit of the group. Or at least that is what makes sense to me.

    Perhaps I misunderstood the Study Group. I thought the purpose was to bring people new to Barry Harris into the system and work through how you would incorporate the ideas that Chris outlines in his videos into actual practice routines. Chris' videos and Howard Reese's DVD's are great resources. But I find at least that a study group is a great way to bridge the gap between what you get in a book and actually putting it into your hands. That is why I suggested moving the thread to "Getting Started".

    I would think that people who have attended actual Barry Harris workshops and already incorporate this practice into their routine won't get much out of a study group. I assume they already know how to do this and do it everyday. After all, there already is an "Official Barry Harris" thread where people can share more advanced understandings unrelated to the actual assignment of the first two of Cris' videos. I assumed this thread was specifically for learning how to apply the concepts Chris present to our practice. No?

  47. #146
    that's cool, it was Matt's idea after all. Whatever you guys want to do, but that takes the interest out of it for me-- I'll just retire to the wood shed
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  48. #147

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  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    that's cool, it was Matt's idea after all. Whatever you guys want to do, but that takes the interest out of it for me-- I'll just retire to the wood shed
    You're the OP. This is your thread. Why don't you tell us what you want this study group to be? What is it you want to get out of the thread?

  50. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    You're the OP. This is your thread. Why don't you tell us what you want this study group to be? What is it you want to get out of the thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    that's cool, it was Matt's idea after all. Whatever you guys want to do, but that takes the interest out of it for me-- I'll just retire to the wood shed
    I'm sorry. I'll own my part of that. I'm pretty busy, but I've recorded a couple of things. When I get a chance I'll upload. Joe has taken a lot of time to record stuff over the last several months. Don't shoot the OP! :-)

  51. #150

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    Please don’t read snark into any of my comments. I know, I know... this is the internet. Everybody is always upset about everything. :-( But I really am just dialoging as straight as possible. I’ve started a study group too, and know how hard it is to keep on track and moving forward.

    I honestly mean for Joe to set up some guidance. I said what I thought this was about and he responded that he had no interest in that kind of study group. Frankly I was surprised at his response. I’m not sure what he is looking for, and I sure don’t want to hijack his thread, so I asked.


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