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  1. #1

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    So for a while I played the doop dee doop dee doop rhythm for my eighth notes (like everyone when they start). Then I started mixing that with straight 8ths. Then I attempted to lean way back, but then I realized I was just dragging. So sometimes I think I swung, but it wasn't something I could consciously do.

    Today I was playing single notes and decided I would try this: I played a swing ride symbol in 4/4 (100bpm) on drum genius. I locked in on the upbeats and just played those for a few minutes. So I'm thinking why do the people that swing the most seem like they're playing straight? Then I realized if I play the down beats precisely in the middle of the swung upbeats I can swing like mad (on one muted string). it's hard to do, but at least i think i have something i can practice
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  3. #2

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    Video or it didn't happen! ;o)

    Seriously, I would like to hear an example.
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  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    So for a while I played the doop dee doop dee doop rhythm for my eighth notes (like everyone when they start). Then I started mixing that with straight 8ths. Then I attempted to lean way back, but then I realized I was just dragging. So sometimes I think I swung, but it wasn't something I could consciously do.

    Today I was playing single notes and decided I would try this: I played a swing ride symbol in 4/4 (100bpm) on drum genius. I locked in on the upbeats and just played those for a few minutes. So I'm thinking why do the people that swing the most seem like they're playing straight? Then I realized if I play the down beats precisely in the middle of the swung upbeats I can swing like mad (on one muted string). it's hard to do, but at least i think i have something i can practice
    I’d like to hear an audio of that. If I’ve understood you right, this is my understanding of swing too.

    (Triplets and quarters are still placed on the beat.)

    OTOH If I play straight over the top of swing locked into the downbeat, it can sound really cool (Prez does it for instance) but it can also sound like implied double time.

    Generally I teach and practice singing or tapping the upbeats swing and straight, and then playing lines with an accented upbeat (to start) - this seems to make the placement more intuitive. At no point should the student try to swing with the right hand.

  5. #4

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  6. #5

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    I think I talked about this recently, although I said something like.

    You want to embody the groove and focus on where you LIFT your foot, ie synchronise with the ups not the downs.

    Brazilian music is similar, all the energy is on the last quaver (if you are feeling two to the bar like a Brazilian).

    You lift your foot crisply and with energy and as near as you can exactly with the drummer's anticipations and then let it fall when it feels good.

    For guitarists a good way to practice this is to pick a track you like at a moderate tempo and play along tapping every beat with the right foot but also every anticipation (where the swing is ) with the left, and you'll need to lift the left at a particular point and also lift the right precisely as the left drops, so it is real practice in quadrilaterally embodying the time feel. Play all upstrokes anticipating every quaver as even as you can with the drummer (and your left foot taps) then let the pick fall for the downbeats WHEREVER feels good.


    I did a lot of this with this guy for inspiration. Not that I swing or anything but I've played a lot of classical guitar and need to watch for sliding back into unrhythmical habits.

    I find I get lots of ideas from drummers these days. The drumeo videos can be excruciatingly unmusical though and I wouldn't necessarily consider all of their interviewers to be musicians.




  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    At no point should the student try to swing with the right hand.
    really? that’s what i was doing when i figured it out; literally right hand picking on a muted string. then i was able to translate it to scales and even with slurs because it was in my ear

    ill chck out that vid later, and hopefully record what i was doing.
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  8. #7
    i watched the video, the last bit is exactly what i’m talking about
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  9. #8

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    classical musicians will never swing..A lot of classical musicians, when they try to play jazz, think you have to "swing" on every single note. You don't. When you really listen to Miles Davis or Gil Evans, it's often quite rhythmically straightforward. "Swinging" is much more complex. Sometimes it might mean laying back on the beat, playing relaxed and lagging behind; sometimes it might mean playing slightly fast, finishing your phrases too early. And that's something you can't train anyone to do

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    really? that’s what i was doing when i figured it out; literally right hand picking on a muted string. then i was able to translate it to scales and even with slurs because it was in my ear

    ill chck out that vid later, and hopefully record what i was doing.
    I meant try and articulate the right hand notes as an inequality. There is no technical difference between playing straight and swing, because as swing feel gets fast, it straightens out. Obviously you can accent the upbeats, or slur upbeat to downbeat etc.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxss View Post
    classical musicians will never swing..A lot of classical musicians, when they try to play jazz, think you have to "swing" on every single note. You don't. When you really listen to Miles Davis or Gil Evans, it's often quite rhythmically straightforward. "Swinging" is much more complex. Sometimes it might mean laying back on the beat, playing relaxed and lagging behind; sometimes it might mean playing slightly fast, finishing your phrases too early. And that's something you can't train anyone to do
    That's not true, it's a cop out. I can improve someone's swing feel. I've done it for a few of my students, and I'm getting better at it.

    Just because something is very complex and nuanced doesn't mean you can't teach it. It does mean you have to have an in depth understanding. If people on this forum spent 25% of the time they spend analysing harmony talking about the details of phrasing they would have a toolset to learn and teach it.

    Swing isn't a binary thing. Swing feel is like any aspect of jazz, something you have to work on, and it deepens and broadens over time, a large set of skills. It is complex, but it can start simply.

    You can improve someone's swing feel in a matter of weeks by pointing out pitfalls and suggesting helpful practice routines. And you know what? It works.

    All this behind the beat/on top of the beat stuff is based on (IMO) an incorrect emphasis on the beat. The beat is somewhat malleable in jazz, but it's not always our primary concern. Instead - the upbeat has tremendous structural importance in jazz, and that's where the quick gains are to be made early on. With classical musicians just as much as jazz musicians. It's about learning to place it consistently at all tempos.

    There's loads of brass tacks things you can do. Learning how to correctly place a swung push, play a displaced quarter triplet or lock into the upbeat of a ride pattern is essential real world stuff that will help your feel and swing vocabulary. Line construction should follow the rhythmic language, it's a waste of time working without it. But a well constructed jazz line will often have the swing baked in.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxss View Post
    classical musicians will never swing..A lot of classical musicians, when they try to play jazz, think you have to "swing" on every single note. You don't. When you really listen to Miles Davis or Gil Evans, it's often quite rhythmically straightforward. "Swinging" is much more complex. Sometimes it might mean laying back on the beat, playing relaxed and lagging behind; sometimes it might mean playing slightly fast, finishing your phrases too early. And that's something you can't train anyone to do
    I can't unpick all of that but would advise that A Counsel of Despair is actually a promising position, the only way is up from there.

    D.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    i watched the video, the last bit is exactly what i’m talking about
    I won't even sulk that this is what I've been talking about on JGO for ages and no one's paid me a blind bit of notice :-)

  14. #13

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    Classical musicians swing like crazy, by the way. The Berlin Phil playing the Bartok Concerto for Orch under Monteux is BURNING.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I meant try and articulate the right hand notes as an inequality. There is no technical difference between playing straight and swing, because as swing feel gets fast, it straightens out. Obviously you can accent the upbeats, or slur upbeat to downbeat etc.
    oh i see what you mean
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  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Classical musicians swing like crazy, by the way. The Berlin Phil playing the Bartok Concerto for Orch under Monteux is BURNING.
    I think early groups - like the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment - often have a very strong sense of groove.

    Sometimes classical musicians say thing like 'I have no sense of rhythm or groove' - but they do - a classical one. I mean I have no idea how rubato works, and am an amateur at working with a conductor. So *shrugs*

    Rhythm is expressed differently by different cultures. My wife is a classical musician, loves Chick Corea playing jazz, but can't stand his phrasing on Mozart.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I won't even sulk that this is what I've been talking about on JGO for ages and no one's paid me a blind bit of notice :-)
    yeah, but isn’t that like your whole thing? i.e. you talk on and on about it for 15 years then one other person mentions it and it becomes a 10 page thread. it’s really pretty hilarious.

    in all seriousness ive learned a metric shit ton from your posts

    edit: and then everyone ignores or argues with you on said thread lol
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  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    yeah, but isn’t that like your whole thing? i.e. you talk on and on about it for 15 years then one other person mentions it and it becomes a 10 page thread. it’s really pretty hilarious.

    in all seriousness ive learned a metric shit ton from your posts

    edit: and then everyone ignores or argues with you on said thread lol
    Haha, of course. What I am learning from this is no-one values advice they haven't paid for. Which is fair enough. But I like to enthuse about my findings and things that I find useful.

    Anyway thanks for the kind words :-)

  19. #18

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    So seriously, not shitposting...

    Do you guys feel there's a "ideal" way to swing?
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  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So seriously, not shitposting...

    Do you guys feel there's a "ideal" way to swing?
    Everyone finds it easy to listen, everyone feels good in their body, noone is too stiff and noone is moving jerkily , everyone finds it easier to do the stuff they've been shedding without tightening up, everyone is smiling at the end of a piece, solos have more structure, technique isn't an issue, people have a shared experience (ie NOT the soloist gritting his teeth and the rhythm guitarist smiling), noone went for a drink till the end, everyone had better tone, no incontinent noodling at the end, because noone really felt the structure and nothing felt finished. Wrong notes felt good and behaved by resolving in no particular hurry, noone reset their downbeat to a clumsy syncopation, noone tried to play a fast line that lost the time as they wandered around chasing their tail, noone resolved never to attend that jam again, no guitarist pushed two and four ahead of the beat making everyone in the room feel ill.

    That kind of thing.

    D.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So seriously, not shitposting...

    Do you guys feel there's a "ideal" way to swing?
    Good question, there are many different ways (but as far as I can hear they all seem to honour the upbeat.)

    For instance, Barry Harris's swing feel is my model, but I think Wynton Kelly's swing while completely different is equally amazing.

  22. #21

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    Joe -

    Can you sing 'Here we go round the Mulberry Bush'? That's swing. 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star' is straight. Many, many nursery rhymes bounce along in swing. Bet you did it as kid without thinking about it.

    I'm NOT insulting you, I'm serious!

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Good question, there are many different ways (but as far as I can hear they all seem to honour the upbeat.)

    For instance, Barry Harris's swing feel is my model, but I think Wynton Kelly's swing while completely different is equally amazing.
    For me it's interesting and instructive to listen to swinging players that push the bounds of what's possible: For me, Horace Silver is at the extreme end of the "swing 8th" perspective and somehow pulls it off; whereas Billy Higgins' ride cymbal is the opposite, almost straight.

    I definitely agree this stuff is teachable and rhythmic feel can be improved a great deal, I've personally improved a lot and have seen many other musicians vastly improve rhythmically as well. As with anything, the first step is developing sensitivity to the nuances of the style: if a musician can't hear and identify whether someone is on top of the beat or behind the beat, and how they are subdividing, then learning to hear that stuff is the first step. it's really not different to other kinds of ear training; when I first started playing jazz, some chords would just sound like an unidentifiable soup of sound to me, but over time, I learned the individual flavors and can now hear things in a way I couldn't when I was younger.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So seriously, not shitposting...

    Do you guys feel there's a "ideal" way to swing?
    No. I figured out a way that I couldn't do before and I was excited about it.

    Edit: sorry this was short. I read it as shitposting anyway lol. there may be ideal swing to a listener. ?dexter gordon for me
    Last edited by joe2758; 08-24-2018 at 01:46 PM.
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  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Joe -

    Can you sing 'Here we go round the Mulberry Bush'? That's swing. 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star' is straight. Many, many nursery rhymes bounce along in swing. Bet you did it as kid without thinking about it.

    I'm NOT insulting you, I'm serious!
    Yeah rag I call that the doop dee doop dee doop rhythm and that gets old pretty quick. That rhythm is locked in with the ride cymbal on down and up beats. You can also lock in with just the down beats and play straight so that the up beats do not line up, I think that's what Christian was saying Lester young would do. The way I'm talking about is locking in with the swung up beats, and playing straight so the down beats do not line up-- and I think of dexter gordon here
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  26. #25
    There's varying degrees of doop dee doop which is probably mostly determined by the drummer, then the soloists pushes and pulls against that established doop dee doop in different and unique ways. I learned a new way that sounds cool
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  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    Everyone finds it easy to listen, everyone feels good in their body, noone is too stiff and noone is moving jerkily , everyone finds it easier to do the stuff they've been shedding without tightening up, everyone is smiling at the end of a piece, solos have more structure, technique isn't an issue, people have a shared experience (ie NOT the soloist gritting his teeth and the rhythm guitarist smiling), noone went for a drink till the end, everyone had better tone, no incontinent noodling at the end, because noone really felt the structure and nothing felt finished. Wrong notes felt good and behaved by resolving in no particular hurry, noone reset their downbeat to a clumsy syncopation, noone tried to play a fast line that lost the time as they wandered around chasing their tail, noone resolved never to attend that jam again, no guitarist pushed two and four ahead of the beat making everyone in the room feel ill.

    That kind of thing.

    D.
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.
    Don’t be silly

  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.
    blame someone else like the rest of us
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  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.
    "Free your mind and your [sense of swing] will follow...."

    Go ahead and relax and enjoy the ride cymbal!
    Best regards, k

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    blame someone else like the rest of us
    I was at a folk session and really not enjoying myself, three banjos to my left, a dobro to the right, none of them ever laying out, nearly snapping my strings trying to be heard, no fun for over an hour.

    Quietly the girl in the corner who had been watching took off her jacket and produced a mandolin as if by magic. She walked up and stood till someone looked askance to see if she wanted to play the next solo. We were in G (of course) so she played quavers on a high G for about thirty seconds. She wasn't loud, there was no edge to it.

    Every single person playing relaxed and played better, I could hear myself and her and everyone else.

    I've been thinking about that ever since.

    I went to a folk festival on Islay about a year later and can you guess who was headlining on the final night ?

    D.

  32. #31

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    If you ever want to hear the difference between the charlie parker bebop style of swinging, and other types of swinging, listen to any of the examples of Jimmy Raney playing with another guitarist.
    I just heard a thing of him playing with Atilla Zoller, and the difference in the way they swung was remarkable.
    It was the same thing when I saw him live with Jack Wilkins; just two completely different rhythmic conceptions.
    There's also a Cal Collins/Raney video on you tube which shows the same thing.

  33. #32

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    There was a study I read some time ago. I can't find it now but they analyzed sound clips of jazz legends and measured swing 8th note ratios. They found that the textbook triplet swing feel (first 8th of the triplet tied with the second) is a very exaggerated view of the swing. Textbook swing will give the ratio of 2:1. But player's like Oscar Peterson, Miles Davis used swing at a ratio much closer to 1:1. Something like 55-45. 60-40 at the most. Swing of course is not only about the ratio. Placement of accents and rests are also very important. But it's not uncommon for people to think swing is 2:1 ratio.
    Also they found the ratio approaches 1:1 as tempo increases as one would think.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    There was a study I read some time ago. I can't find it now but they analyzed sound clips of jazz legends and measured swing 8th note ratios. They found that the textbook triplet swing feel (first 8th of the triplet tied with the second) is a very exaggerated view of the swing. Textbook swing will give the ratio of 2:1. But player's like Oscar Peterson, Miles Davis used swing at a ratio much closer to 1:1. Something like 55-45. 60-40 at the most. Swing of course is not only about the ratio. Placement of accents and rests are also very important. But it's not uncommon for people to think swing is 2:1 ratio.
    Also they found the ratio approaches 1:1 as tempo increases as one would think.
    I don't think that ratio is as important as all that.

  35. #34

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    I agree. In fact, accents, rests, dynamics and melodic shape sometimes create an illusion of an asymmetric ratio when it isn't there.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    I agree. In fact, accents, rests, dynamics and melodic shape sometimes create an illusion of an asymmetric ratio when it isn't there.
    It's all about feeling that pocket.... the ratio will be whatever it will be

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Yeah rag I call that the doop dee doop dee doop rhythm and that gets old pretty quick. That rhythm is locked in with the ride cymbal on down and up beats. You can also lock in with just the down beats and play straight so that the up beats do not line up, I think that's what Christian was saying Lester young would do. The way I'm talking about is locking in with the swung up beats, and playing straight so the down beats do not line up-- and I think of dexter gordon here
    Too complicated for me, Joe. It's either straight or it bounces. That's all I know :-)

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Don’t be silly
    Not being silly at all. That description describes a nirvana of ease and musicality that I can't imagine myself at any time soon. He makes it sound simultaneously perfect and easy, and I find neither of those coming to me after almost 30 years of trying. I do feel like I have swing feel, maybe a little corny, but it's there; but that description of liquid swing so easy and all... it still feels out of reach, and even more so with all the analysis going on. Now not only do I have to worry about melodic ideas, chord tones, chromaticism.. I have to divide up beats and make sure I'm doing the up-beat right whatever...

    It's like having Superman talk about stopping bullets: Dude you just step in front of it.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  39. #38

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    Go easy on yourself there, fella.

    Freel was describing an ideal, as asked. I think even for the masters we look up to only a few special nights feel like that, and perhaps only fleetingly. I do know one thing - I have to play with other people to stand a chance of getting there. As much as I can.

    For the other nights, there's always another level to things.

    For instance, I'm not saying I'm at this level or that level, but I've been working on jazz guitar for a long time now, and I think I've made progress. The other night I listened to my playing after not playing so much for a few days, and seemed like it was coming apart at the seams. I could hear weaknesses and inaccuracies I never noticed before.

    I welcome it, my ears have got better. Onto the next level.

    From both interviews and lessons with the greats and talking to my peers and students I think that's how everyone feels?

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Not being silly at all. That description describes a nirvana of ease and musicality that I can't imagine myself at any time soon. He makes it sound simultaneously perfect and easy, and I find neither of those coming to me after almost 30 years of trying.
    Twitter

    So there is a classical dude, a few dancers of unknown provenance and an immediate musical connection.

    When I was six years old my dad would play accordion once in a while when my mum was out playing bingo.

    Myself, my brother and my sister would find ourselves getting up and dancing and always right and always uncaring, it was no bother at all.

    Thirty years later I had been studying hard, practicing every day studying classical guitar and would try and play with him. And I found myself the screwdriver among the spokes. He would look at me with pity that he could not disguise, but not unkindly.

    He had learned to play by ear as a child and only for joy and I had started too late and been in too much of a rush and had missed the important things.

    We are all born Supermen and bad practice is our Kryptonite.

    But when we let our ego aside and instead be honest and patient we find that a little baby superman is there waiting to solve all our problems for us, by not giving a sh1t about anything but enjoyment. Play what you can, not what you cannot.

    But yeah, nirvana, beginners mind, all that too.

    D.

  41. #40

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    One thing that made me go "uh ... hmmm ... oh, right ... " on swinging was a bit in a jazz brass workshop years ago when Bill Watrous told the group "None of you guys is ever gonna swing if you can't nail your down-beats every freaking time."

    He told us swing is the up against the down, and if the down varies ... there's no way to make the up hard.

    That's always been an issue for me: slight variances in my tempo that I don't realize are there. When I nail my tempo, measure after measure, it has more swing to it.

    Mostly, in my playing ... it's the triplets figure. Without a real feel of swing.

    My bane.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  42. #41

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    I think it's quite interesting that only one guitarist, Jimmy Raney, has been mentioned here. All the other players:

    Oscar Peterson
    Miles Davis
    Lester Young
    Dexter Gordon
    Horace Silver
    Barry Harris
    Wynton Kelly
    Chick Corea
    Gil Evans

    aren't guitarists. That may mean something or nothing but I'm not sure that the technique of one instrument can so easily be transferred to another. You could argue that swing is swing and the same for all regardless of the instrument it's played on but I'm not sure; the body posture, the fingerings and the mindsets are different. The players are schooled differently.

    This might be discussable. Difficult, maybe, because we aren't sax, trumpet or piano players. Or, if we are, it's not the instrument we've settled with.

  43. #42

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    I dunno. I get more turned on by piano players atm but there’s some guitarists with great swing feel.

    I think guitarists tend to be straighter? I find it hard to think of a jazz guitarist who plays as dotted as Wynton Kelly....
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-25-2018 at 05:34 AM.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    There's varying degrees of doop dee doop which is probably mostly determined by the drummer, then the soloists pushes and pulls against that established doop dee doop in different and unique ways. I learned a new way that sounds cool
    Surely that’s Ten, ten to ten, ten to ten?

    Drummers vary too. Some drummers play no or intermittent skip note and push the quarters. The skip dot comes out more pronounced. Listen to Jimmy Cobb on So What.

    An interesting question is what does a solo instrumentalist have to establish the placement of the upbeat? In this case I think expressing the downbeat clearly at some points becomes really important.

    But the downbeat upbeat locked thing still sounds really corny. So I’m talking about playing 1/4 notes and punctuating perhaps with chords on the beat too.

  45. #44

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    I like this. It's not just the swing but the gaps he leaves, often crossing bars. That's clever.


  46. #45

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    Yeah I like Jimmy Raney's feel. Pat Martino is another one.

    I have to say, I'm in two minds as to how to teach this. ATM see it as a two part exercise:

    1) get the student to be mindful of the upbeat in lines - start them off by accenting the upbeats. Even though this isn't the end goal, it gets them out of the doobedoobedoo thing because it's physically difficult to accent a heavily dotted off beat - try it! Probably they unconsciously accent the downbeat. Eventually the aim is even-ness and legato.

    2) get the student to be mindful of the placement of the upbeat in the ensemble. Sooo a couple of ways
    - get them to sing or tap a bar of straight upbeats and then a bar of upbeats on the last eighth triplet. This is basic orientation.
    - get them to sing or tap the upbeats with a track, then later a metronome click, and see if they make the metronome swing.

    I don't discuss the science of it because I think that's intimidating and confusing. The aim is to find the 'pocket' and to swing intuitively. It seems to help

    Lastly an exercise I learned from a teacher was set the metronome click to the + of 1 and 3 (I suppose you could do 2 and 4.) This is to develop an awareness of the upbeat placement and help keep it even. It's important that one doesn't dot too much when doing this, I think....

  47. #46

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    BTW - part of the thing is that if you are practicing with a metronome on 2 and 4 and are properly swinging, your swung eight notes will never line up to the click but rather around it, and click will swing. Bit of a head ****.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I like this. It's not just the swing but the gaps he leaves, often crossing bars. That's clever.




    I remember reading through the Aebersold Jimmy Raney book years ago, trying to play along with him at 25 percent speed on VLC. At first I was amazed by the clarity of the transcription, then realised he had made it easy for them, his time feel and rhythmic clarity is amazing.

    Volume 20: Jimmy Raney with Free Audio CD Jamey Aebersold Play-A-Long Series Jazz Play-A-Long for All Musicians: Amazon.co.uk: Jimmy Raney: Books

    I learned nothing from that book but humility (though not so much that anyone but me might notice), I'll try and dig it out again and see if I am close to being able to actually learn from it yet.

    I might even get to 30 percent speed and maintain some contact or, more likely, realise that 25 percent was too fast and I was kidding myself.


    D.

  49. #48

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    While we're at it.


  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah I like Jimmy Raney's feel. Pat Martino is another one.

    I have to say, I'm in two minds as to how to teach this.
    I wouldn't make it too technical and I wouldn't break it down too much. Your ten-to-ten thing was quite good. If they can sing it, or just say it, they can play it.

    Just the basic feel is good enough (and if they're any good they'll get it instinctively anyway) then you can tidy up the details later.

    It's actually a very basic rhythm anyway, isn't it? Dum-de-dum-de-dum :-)

  51. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    I remember reading through the Aebersold Jimmy Raney book years ago, trying to play along with him at 25 percent speed on VLC. At first I was amazed by the clarity of the transcription, then realised he had made it easy for them, his time feel and rhythmic clarity is amazing.

    Volume 20: Jimmy Raney with Free Audio CD Jamey Aebersold Play-A-Long Series Jazz Play-A-Long for All Musicians: Amazon.co.uk: Jimmy Raney: Books

    I learned nothing from that book but humility (though not so much that anyone but me might notice), I'll try and dig it out again and see if I am close to being able to actually learn from it yet.

    I might even get to 30 percent speed and maintain some contact or, more likely, realise that 25 percent was too fast and I was kidding myself.


    D.
    incidentally i just purchased this book because there is a study group starting right now on the forum. we’re going to learn the bout you and me solo over an extended period of time
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