The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    Everyone finds it easy to listen, everyone feels good in their body, noone is too stiff and noone is moving jerkily , everyone finds it easier to do the stuff they've been shedding without tightening up, everyone is smiling at the end of a piece, solos have more structure, technique isn't an issue, people have a shared experience (ie NOT the soloist gritting his teeth and the rhythm guitarist smiling), noone went for a drink till the end, everyone had better tone, no incontinent noodling at the end, because noone really felt the structure and nothing felt finished. Wrong notes felt good and behaved by resolving in no particular hurry, noone reset their downbeat to a clumsy syncopation, noone tried to play a fast line that lost the time as they wandered around chasing their tail, noone resolved never to attend that jam again, no guitarist pushed two and four ahead of the beat making everyone in the room feel ill.

    That kind of thing.

    D.
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.
    Don’t be silly

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.
    blame someone else like the rest of us

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    So it's clear I will continue to stay home from jam sessions! Totally not there yet, and wouldn't want to ruin it for everyone.
    "Free your mind and your [sense of swing] will follow...."

    Go ahead and relax and enjoy the ride cymbal!

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    blame someone else like the rest of us
    I was at a folk session and really not enjoying myself, three banjos to my left, a dobro to the right, none of them ever laying out, nearly snapping my strings trying to be heard, no fun for over an hour.

    Quietly the girl in the corner who had been watching took off her jacket and produced a mandolin as if by magic. She walked up and stood till someone looked askance to see if she wanted to play the next solo. We were in G (of course) so she played quavers on a high G for about thirty seconds. She wasn't loud, there was no edge to it.

    Every single person playing relaxed and played better, I could hear myself and her and everyone else.

    I've been thinking about that ever since.

    I went to a folk festival on Islay about a year later and can you guess who was headlining on the final night ?

    D.

  7. #31

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    If you ever want to hear the difference between the charlie parker bebop style of swinging, and other types of swinging, listen to any of the examples of Jimmy Raney playing with another guitarist.
    I just heard a thing of him playing with Atilla Zoller, and the difference in the way they swung was remarkable.
    It was the same thing when I saw him live with Jack Wilkins; just two completely different rhythmic conceptions.
    There's also a Cal Collins/Raney video on you tube which shows the same thing.

  8. #32

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    There was a study I read some time ago. I can't find it now but they analyzed sound clips of jazz legends and measured swing 8th note ratios. They found that the textbook triplet swing feel (first 8th of the triplet tied with the second) is a very exaggerated view of the swing. Textbook swing will give the ratio of 2:1. But player's like Oscar Peterson, Miles Davis used swing at a ratio much closer to 1:1. Something like 55-45. 60-40 at the most. Swing of course is not only about the ratio. Placement of accents and rests are also very important. But it's not uncommon for people to think swing is 2:1 ratio.
    Also they found the ratio approaches 1:1 as tempo increases as one would think.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    There was a study I read some time ago. I can't find it now but they analyzed sound clips of jazz legends and measured swing 8th note ratios. They found that the textbook triplet swing feel (first 8th of the triplet tied with the second) is a very exaggerated view of the swing. Textbook swing will give the ratio of 2:1. But player's like Oscar Peterson, Miles Davis used swing at a ratio much closer to 1:1. Something like 55-45. 60-40 at the most. Swing of course is not only about the ratio. Placement of accents and rests are also very important. But it's not uncommon for people to think swing is 2:1 ratio.
    Also they found the ratio approaches 1:1 as tempo increases as one would think.
    I don't think that ratio is as important as all that.

  10. #34

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    I agree. In fact, accents, rests, dynamics and melodic shape sometimes create an illusion of an asymmetric ratio when it isn't there.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I agree. In fact, accents, rests, dynamics and melodic shape sometimes create an illusion of an asymmetric ratio when it isn't there.
    It's all about feeling that pocket.... the ratio will be whatever it will be

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Yeah rag I call that the doop dee doop dee doop rhythm and that gets old pretty quick. That rhythm is locked in with the ride cymbal on down and up beats. You can also lock in with just the down beats and play straight so that the up beats do not line up, I think that's what Christian was saying Lester young would do. The way I'm talking about is locking in with the swung up beats, and playing straight so the down beats do not line up-- and I think of dexter gordon here
    Too complicated for me, Joe. It's either straight or it bounces. That's all I know :-)

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Don’t be silly
    Not being silly at all. That description describes a nirvana of ease and musicality that I can't imagine myself at any time soon. He makes it sound simultaneously perfect and easy, and I find neither of those coming to me after almost 30 years of trying. I do feel like I have swing feel, maybe a little corny, but it's there; but that description of liquid swing so easy and all... it still feels out of reach, and even more so with all the analysis going on. Now not only do I have to worry about melodic ideas, chord tones, chromaticism.. I have to divide up beats and make sure I'm doing the up-beat right whatever...

    It's like having Superman talk about stopping bullets: Dude you just step in front of it.

  14. #38

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    Go easy on yourself there, fella.

    Freel was describing an ideal, as asked. I think even for the masters we look up to only a few special nights feel like that, and perhaps only fleetingly. I do know one thing - I have to play with other people to stand a chance of getting there. As much as I can.

    For the other nights, there's always another level to things.

    For instance, I'm not saying I'm at this level or that level, but I've been working on jazz guitar for a long time now, and I think I've made progress. The other night I listened to my playing after not playing so much for a few days, and seemed like it was coming apart at the seams. I could hear weaknesses and inaccuracies I never noticed before.

    I welcome it, my ears have got better. Onto the next level.

    From both interviews and lessons with the greats and talking to my peers and students I think that's how everyone feels?

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Not being silly at all. That description describes a nirvana of ease and musicality that I can't imagine myself at any time soon. He makes it sound simultaneously perfect and easy, and I find neither of those coming to me after almost 30 years of trying.
    Twitter

    So there is a classical dude, a few dancers of unknown provenance and an immediate musical connection.

    When I was six years old my dad would play accordion once in a while when my mum was out playing bingo.

    Myself, my brother and my sister would find ourselves getting up and dancing and always right and always uncaring, it was no bother at all.

    Thirty years later I had been studying hard, practicing every day studying classical guitar and would try and play with him. And I found myself the screwdriver among the spokes. He would look at me with pity that he could not disguise, but not unkindly.

    He had learned to play by ear as a child and only for joy and I had started too late and been in too much of a rush and had missed the important things.

    We are all born Supermen and bad practice is our Kryptonite.

    But when we let our ego aside and instead be honest and patient we find that a little baby superman is there waiting to solve all our problems for us, by not giving a sh1t about anything but enjoyment. Play what you can, not what you cannot.

    But yeah, nirvana, beginners mind, all that too.

    D.

  16. #40

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    One thing that made me go "uh ... hmmm ... oh, right ... " on swinging was a bit in a jazz brass workshop years ago when Bill Watrous told the group "None of you guys is ever gonna swing if you can't nail your down-beats every freaking time."

    He told us swing is the up against the down, and if the down varies ... there's no way to make the up hard.

    That's always been an issue for me: slight variances in my tempo that I don't realize are there. When I nail my tempo, measure after measure, it has more swing to it.

    Mostly, in my playing ... it's the triplets figure. Without a real feel of swing.

    My bane.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  17. #41

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    I think it's quite interesting that only one guitarist, Jimmy Raney, has been mentioned here. All the other players:

    Oscar Peterson
    Miles Davis
    Lester Young
    Dexter Gordon
    Horace Silver
    Barry Harris
    Wynton Kelly
    Chick Corea
    Gil Evans

    aren't guitarists. That may mean something or nothing but I'm not sure that the technique of one instrument can so easily be transferred to another. You could argue that swing is swing and the same for all regardless of the instrument it's played on but I'm not sure; the body posture, the fingerings and the mindsets are different. The players are schooled differently.

    This might be discussable. Difficult, maybe, because we aren't sax, trumpet or piano players. Or, if we are, it's not the instrument we've settled with.

  18. #42

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    I dunno. I get more turned on by piano players atm but there’s some guitarists with great swing feel.

    I think guitarists tend to be straighter? I find it hard to think of a jazz guitarist who plays as dotted as Wynton Kelly....
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-25-2018 at 05:34 AM.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    There's varying degrees of doop dee doop which is probably mostly determined by the drummer, then the soloists pushes and pulls against that established doop dee doop in different and unique ways. I learned a new way that sounds cool
    Surely that’s Ten, ten to ten, ten to ten?

    Drummers vary too. Some drummers play no or intermittent skip note and push the quarters. The skip dot comes out more pronounced. Listen to Jimmy Cobb on So What.

    An interesting question is what does a solo instrumentalist have to establish the placement of the upbeat? In this case I think expressing the downbeat clearly at some points becomes really important.

    But the downbeat upbeat locked thing still sounds really corny. So I’m talking about playing 1/4 notes and punctuating perhaps with chords on the beat too.

  20. #44

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    I like this. It's not just the swing but the gaps he leaves, often crossing bars. That's clever.


  21. #45

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    Yeah I like Jimmy Raney's feel. Pat Martino is another one.

    I have to say, I'm in two minds as to how to teach this. ATM see it as a two part exercise:

    1) get the student to be mindful of the upbeat in lines - start them off by accenting the upbeats. Even though this isn't the end goal, it gets them out of the doobedoobedoo thing because it's physically difficult to accent a heavily dotted off beat - try it! Probably they unconsciously accent the downbeat. Eventually the aim is even-ness and legato.

    2) get the student to be mindful of the placement of the upbeat in the ensemble. Sooo a couple of ways
    - get them to sing or tap a bar of straight upbeats and then a bar of upbeats on the last eighth triplet. This is basic orientation.
    - get them to sing or tap the upbeats with a track, then later a metronome click, and see if they make the metronome swing.

    I don't discuss the science of it because I think that's intimidating and confusing. The aim is to find the 'pocket' and to swing intuitively. It seems to help

    Lastly an exercise I learned from a teacher was set the metronome click to the + of 1 and 3 (I suppose you could do 2 and 4.) This is to develop an awareness of the upbeat placement and help keep it even. It's important that one doesn't dot too much when doing this, I think....

  22. #46

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    BTW - part of the thing is that if you are practicing with a metronome on 2 and 4 and are properly swinging, your swung eight notes will never line up to the click but rather around it, and click will swing. Bit of a head ****.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I like this. It's not just the swing but the gaps he leaves, often crossing bars. That's clever.




    I remember reading through the Aebersold Jimmy Raney book years ago, trying to play along with him at 25 percent speed on VLC. At first I was amazed by the clarity of the transcription, then realised he had made it easy for them, his time feel and rhythmic clarity is amazing.

    Volume 20: Jimmy Raney with Free Audio CD Jamey Aebersold Play-A-Long Series Jazz Play-A-Long for All Musicians: Amazon.co.uk: Jimmy Raney: Books

    I learned nothing from that book but humility (though not so much that anyone but me might notice), I'll try and dig it out again and see if I am close to being able to actually learn from it yet.

    I might even get to 30 percent speed and maintain some contact or, more likely, realise that 25 percent was too fast and I was kidding myself.


    D.

  24. #48

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    While we're at it.


  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah I like Jimmy Raney's feel. Pat Martino is another one.

    I have to say, I'm in two minds as to how to teach this.
    I wouldn't make it too technical and I wouldn't break it down too much. Your ten-to-ten thing was quite good. If they can sing it, or just say it, they can play it.

    Just the basic feel is good enough (and if they're any good they'll get it instinctively anyway) then you can tidy up the details later.

    It's actually a very basic rhythm anyway, isn't it? Dum-de-dum-de-dum :-)

  26. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    I remember reading through the Aebersold Jimmy Raney book years ago, trying to play along with him at 25 percent speed on VLC. At first I was amazed by the clarity of the transcription, then realised he had made it easy for them, his time feel and rhythmic clarity is amazing.

    Volume 20: Jimmy Raney with Free Audio CD Jamey Aebersold Play-A-Long Series Jazz Play-A-Long for All Musicians: Amazon.co.uk: Jimmy Raney: Books

    I learned nothing from that book but humility (though not so much that anyone but me might notice), I'll try and dig it out again and see if I am close to being able to actually learn from it yet.

    I might even get to 30 percent speed and maintain some contact or, more likely, realise that 25 percent was too fast and I was kidding myself.


    D.
    incidentally i just purchased this book because there is a study group starting right now on the forum. we’re going to learn the bout you and me solo over an extended period of time