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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Can remember anything more specific about the rhythms?
    Yeah so the basic thing was that the "big 3", or counting 3 against a pulse of 2, is pretty common. he started the class doing this by everyone patting quarter notes with their foot, then clapping a 6/8 tresillo pattern (just even triplets, not 3 side of son clave) over top, your basic 3/2. then, he asked us to transfer the tresillo pattern to our feet, and clapping 4 beats on top of the 6 that we were tapping. He then played piano over top of that using the 4 as a pulse to whatever he played (I can't remember). His thing was feeling an underlying 6 when you're in 4/4.

    He went a lot deeper but unfortunately since I was also playing I didn't pick up everything he said (we had to play some of his tunes and I was fairly nervous about them, both were quite difficult)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    interesting thread...to quote Zafar Saood from his book of transcriptions of WES..you can play all his solos as Etudes,without accompaniments..they all have the Explications of a Bach cello suite or Coltranes giant Steps..playng jazz from the bop school requires respect for the geography ,terrain and finally the architecture of the melodic contours.so there ya go...no rhythm section..or metronome....maybe just jazz brushes ..play with Osmosis...
    Last edited by voxss; 08-28-2018 at 02:44 PM.

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    Yeah so the basic thing was that the "big 3", or counting 3 against a pulse of 2, is pretty common. he started the class doing this by everyone patting quarter notes with their foot, then clapping a 6/8 tresillo pattern (just even triplets, not 3 side of son clave) over top, your basic 3/2. then, he asked us to transfer the tresillo pattern to our feet, and clapping 4 beats on top of the 6 that we were tapping. He then played piano over top of that using the 4 as a pulse to whatever he played (I can't remember). His thing was feeling an underlying 6 when you're in 4/4.

    He went a lot deeper but unfortunately since I was also playing I didn't pick up everything he said (we had to play some of his tunes and I was fairly nervous about them, both were quite difficult)
    Cool. Yes this is something we've been talking about, but that's a cool way of practicing it.

    As I mentioned Peter B talks about feeling underlying 4 when playing in 6. That's pretty effective BTW.

  5. #204

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  6. #205

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    OOPS, I meant this one.



  7. #206

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    It’s interesting that the references people make to rhythmic study in jazz is to related forms of music that aren’t in fact jazz. Often to Cuban music, for instance.

    I think jazz is lacking an innate way of teaching or talking about the basic swing rhythms.

  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s interesting that the references people make to rhythmic study in jazz is to related forms of music that aren’t in fact jazz. Often to Cuban music, for instance.

    I think jazz is lacking an innate way of teaching or talking about the basic swing rhythms.
    Because music used to be played, now it's more taught than played.

  9. #208

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    Think about what you have said with reference to Cuban music

  10. #209

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    I think you might be exactly wrong.
    If you mean ‘people didn’t have to talk about this stuff.’

    I wonder if the problem is that since the music has been taught in college and listened to a lot of the rhythmic vernacular understanding has disappeared. People graduate jazz school not knowing what a Charleston is, or a second line March beat.

    Instead musicians have a bit of a tendency to talk about rhythm in mathematical abstract terms. Metrical modulations, subdivision and so on. That’s all cool, but it’s not a physical connection.

    And while they might not have broken down the exact mechanics of rhythm in the way that that YouTube I posted (I say again neither me nor the video creator necessarily think it’s useful to think about rhythm that way) they did talk about rhythm and groove, basic building blocks.

    Cuban music is still dance music foremost. The names of the different rhythms have a physical and cultural connection.

    If you read some interviews with the great jazz drummers you realise this. What would drummers talk about if not this?

  11. #210

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    I hope y'all don't analyze screwing as much as you do swinging.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  12. #211

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    Here’s a couple of interviews that I liked which talk about swinging and swing feel in some depth

    Interview with Charles McPherson | DO THE M@TH

    Interview with Billy Hart | DO THE M@TH

  13. #212

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    I have been exploring more of the uploads on the channel that the Mike Moreno class was published. This one is nice and IMO well worth a watch no matter whether you enjoy Bela particularly. In particular, with relation to this thread, he talks about the COMMONALITY of time in different styles (at around the 29 min mark). The message I take, and to be honest it is the one I already subscribed to, is that good time is good time and if one works honestly and patiently for it and always with direct experience on one's own instrument/s or body, then a respectful ear can find a way in a variety of settings.


  14. #213

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    Really hard not to play bluegrass :-)

  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    I have been exploring more of the uploads on the channel that the Mike Moreno class was published. This one is nice and IMO well worth a watch no matter whether you enjoy Bela particularly. In particular, with relation to this thread, he talks about the COMMONALITY of time in different styles (at around the 29 min mark). The message I take, and to be honest it is the one I already subscribed to, is that good time is good time and if one works honestly and patiently for it and always with direct experience on one's own instrument/s or body, then a respectful ear can find a way in a variety of settings.

    Brilliant, thanks Freel. Will have a listen later.

  16. #215

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    How in their right mind would not enjoy Bela Fleck?

  17. #216

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    Everyone is on a journey, everyone has to accept the people who are present and where they are at.

    I find the incongruity of these two performances fascinating. Both work though, on their own merits.

    This one in four.



    This one in two.


  18. #217
    All this talk of upbeats etc. has kinda done my head in, the last week or so. There's a lot of questioning "what you think you're thinking about/hearing " as you play something.

    Anyway, I've been playing a lot of this rainey solo for another thread, and I noticed something peculiar as I was playing these lines repetitively. Noticed that I'm basically playing reststrokes on the upbeat much of the time, if I'm really digging in. Honestly, this isn't even something I want to analyze or think about too much. Just thought it was peculiar and interesting.

  19. #218

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  20. #219
    can i just say one last thing and then i’ll shove off. i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait
    White belt
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  21. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait

    I like that Joe, especially one word, 'wait'.

    D.

  22. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    can i just say one last thing and then i’ll shove off. i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait
    To clarify my post, I've enjoyed the whole conversation . And I agree 100% with yours quote above. My first sentence about challenging assumptions was not a criticism or implication that anyone is overthinking things. I honestly hate when conversations turn into people accusing others of overthinking. So, I'm usually NOT in that camp by default.

    It was more of an observation - that I just found the process of "thinking about what I'm thinking about " (possibly) to be very INTERESTING. My point was more that I found it intriguing that (I guess) I'm subconsciously accenting those upbeats, even while using pretty strict alternate picking. I've always heard people talk about picking down on your upbeats or using other picking styles because of it etc. Anyway, I'm not really making any judgment of that. I just found it interesting.

  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    To clarify my post, I've enjoyed the whole conversation . And I agree 100% with yours quote above. My first sentence about challenging assumptions was not a criticism or implication that anyone is overthinking things. I honestly hate when conversations turn into people accusing others of overthinking. So, I'm usually NOT in that camp by default.

    It was more of an observation - that I just found the process of "thinking about what I'm thinking about " (possibly) to be very INTERESTING. My point was more that I found it intriguing that (I guess) I'm subconsciously accenting those upbeats, even while using pretty strict alternate picking. I've always heard people talk about picking down on your upbeats or using other picking styles because of it etc. Anyway, I'm not really making any judgment of that. I just found it interesting.
    I agree with all of this, and will add that I also find thinking and talking about playing this music to be lots of fun as well. We all think and talk about stuff, and I find thinking and talking about playing jazz, with the kinds of conversationalists on this forum, to be lots of fun and even, at times, elevating.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  24. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    I like that Joe, especially one word, 'wait'.

    D.
    thanks freel. my problem earlier was i posted while still in the overthinking phase because i got excited/ahead of myself
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  25. #224

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    No problem Joe, we're all just spitballing on these threads and I think we all have a common goal which is the basis for any friendship, or at least respect.

    But we get excited, me probably most of all, and clumsy and don't take the time to think about other peoples intentions.

    It's all fine were just trying to help each other and share and sptiballing is always a little messy.

    I've enjoyed thinking about these things. I am currently overhauling my technique completely and that means, weirdly, playing very little, it is necessary but while my unconscious works on things I find myself rambling here.

    I appreciate your patience.

    D.

  26. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    can i just say one last thing and then i’ll shove off. i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait
    My atittude exactly.

    If you aren't overthinking and putting everything under the microscope in your practice room, you aren't really practicing.

    If you are doing any thinking at all in performance, you are f***ed.

    There seem to be some people who never quite get that distinction. But, it's one of the most important concepts I've come across. Practice is meant to sound bad (or rather there should be a tolerance of practice sounding bad, which is why we don't practice in company). Ragman's reaction is pretty unhelpful IMO. I can hear what you are getting at.

  27. #226

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    Well some high level thinking is OK in performance, such as 'I'm going to start this solo on the G string for as long as I can bear' or 'I'm going to try and play as few notes as possible for 16 bars' etc - but anything like 'now I'm going to do this thing I've been working on' - always fall flat.

  28. #227

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    Maybe there is no overthinking, but sure there is overreacting.

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  29. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Maybe there is no overthinking, but sure there is overreacting.

    Sent from My Blog Page
    How dare you!!!!!!

  30. #229

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    Joe, if you are still around.

    I have been working on a little exercise that should, if I ever take the time to do it properly, deliver the facility you feel would be helpful to swing in some ways.

    Set your metronome as low as possible (I have a little digital one which goes down to 30/120 for this exercise)

    Tap you left foot for with the metronome (this is the anticipation of the), right foot follows on the downbeat.

    Stay with the click religiously, left foot unchanging.

    COUNT OUT LOUD first, even eights (+1+2+3+4)
    next (and preferably initially after several bars) (a1+a2+a3+4)
    then count sixteenths.

    Stay with the click in the left foot but allow the beat to land where the change in subdivision dictates.

    It's a zen style exercise, one to enjoy doing in no hurry an accepting the impossibility of perfetction

    It's a pretty deep exercise I could upload a demonstration but watching me try isn't the point, 30 bpm is really too fast. If you use a PC there is a program available called weird metronome which goes down to 1bpm, things start to become really instructive about 18bpm.


    This is an empirical experiment to test the postulate you stated at the start of the thread, use it as a jumping off point for other things if you find it interesting, if your postulate is correct it should give you the facility, with time, to play with others and tie even eighths or any other subdivision to the up and delay the down, if it isn't then it will make you a subtly stronger musician anyway if you are patient and do it well.

    When you can move seamlessly between the three feels and FEEL GOOD doing it then you will be in some kind of ZONE, it may not be directly applicable to any joint musical venture but your body will thank you in the end.

    I'll be trying it anyway, I love simple elegant practical things, especially when they are so hard they slow me down below a crawl. That's where I learn.

    D.

  31. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    Joe, if you are still around.

    I have been working on a little exercise that should, if I ever take the time to do it properly, deliver the facility you feel would be helpful to swing in some ways.

    Set your metronome as low as possible (I have a little digital one which goes down to 30/120 for this exercise)

    Tap you left foot for with the metronome (this is the anticipation of the), right foot follows on the downbeat.

    Stay with the click religiously, left foot unchanging.

    COUNT OUT LOUD first, even eights (+1+2+3+4)
    next (and preferably initially after several bars) (a1+a2+a3+4)
    then count sixteenths.

    Stay with the click in the left foot but allow the beat to land where the change in subdivision dictates.

    It's a zen style exercise, one to enjoy doing in no hurry an accepting the impossibility of perfetction

    It's a pretty deep exercise I could upload a demonstration but watching me try isn't the point, 30 bpm is really too fast. If you use a PC there is a program available called weird metronome which goes down to 1bpm, things start to become really instructive about 18bpm.


    This is an empirical experiment to test the postulate you stated at the start of the thread, use it as a jumping off point for other things if you find it interesting, if your postulate is correct it should give you the facility, with time, to play with others and tie even eighths or any other subdivision to the up and delay the down, if it isn't then it will make you a subtly stronger musician anyway if you are patient and do it well.

    When you can move seamlessly between the three feels and FEEL GOOD doing it then you will be in some kind of ZONE, it may not be directly applicable to any joint musical venture but your body will thank you in the end.

    I'll be trying it anyway, I love simple elegant practical things, especially when they are so hard they slow me down below a crawl. That's where I learn.

    D.
    Hey Freel-I normally find that the advice people give is pretty directly correlated to how and what they play. But I don't have any basis to connect your advice to a particular style, or level, or type of playing. Could you post some clips to give us an idea of what's going on with your playing? It's kind of traditional in the forum for those who offer advice and strategies and such to substantiate their authority also, by posting clips so we can all say "Wow, yeah, that's what I want to be able to do."

    I for one would love to hear you play and incorporate the ideas you've shared.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  32. #231
    that sounds really interesting freel, but i don’t think i fully grasp how to practice it. a demonstration would be great, if you can.

    Lawson, he posted some playing on some other thread and is playing is fantastic. He improvises classical guitar music on his youtube channel. first rate classical technique and tone, not to mention the musical ideas.

    do you play jazz freel, or is your interest here mostly guitar improvisation in general?
    White belt
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  33. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    that sounds really interesting freel, but i don’t think i fully grasp how to practice it. a demonstration would be great, if you can.

    Lawson, he posted some playing on some other thread and is playing is fantastic. He improvises classical guitar music on his youtube channel. first rate classical technique and tone, not to mention the musical ideas.

    do you play jazz freel, or is your interest here mostly guitar improvisation in general?
    This being a jazz forum, and the topic being "swing" obviously my interest is in how fruitful the advice is for playing and improvising jazz. Lots of outstanding classical players are pretty poor jazz players, and that's not to take away from any virtuosity at classical. But jazz is a different genre, involves different techniques, and often very different learning and practice disciplines. So I'd like to know if the advice is that of a classical player who thinks a lot about jazz, or a classical player who really can play jazz.

    In any event, demos are great.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  34. #233

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    Basically I suppose you are advising people on how to swing, can you swing?

    Someone can check me out and decide that i don’t swing, and thereby ignore my advice, so no harm done, right? :-)

    Can you pm a link to freel’s YouTube please joe, I’ve been trying to check out his playing but he’s terribly coy.

  35. #234
    exactly for example here is christian trying to demonstrate his time feel


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  36. #235
    i think hes only getting frustrated because swing is nearly impossible to teach
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  37. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    exactly for example here is christian trying to demonstrate his time feel


    Come on, Christian is a pain in the back or maybe lower because he is English or maybe just British but he does the job very well and he's got a good sense of humour.

  38. #237
    yeah of course it’s a joke, hes great and has a good sense of humor that’s why i like to pick on him. he can take a joke
    White belt
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  39. #238
    i actually dont think hes a pain at all, im probably a pain in his haha
    White belt
    My Youtube

  40. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Basically I suppose you are advising people on how to swing, can you swing?

    Someone can check me out and decide that i don’t swing, and thereby ignore my advice, so no harm done, right? :-)

    Can you pm a link to freel’s YouTube please joe, I’ve been trying to check out his playing but he’s terribly coy.
    It’s not a secret, he’s posted videos on the classical thread.

    David Freel
    - YouTube

  41. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    It’s not a secret, he’s posted videos on the classical thread.

    David Freel
    - YouTube
    Nice, but that tells as much about his swing feel as a video of me baking a cake would tell you about my barbeque.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  42. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    i think hes only getting frustrated because swing is nearly impossible to teach
    I find your lack of faith disturbing

  43. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    exactly for example here is christian trying to demonstrate his time feel


    I do Skype lessons if anyone is interested

  44. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    It’s not a secret, he’s posted videos on the classical thread.

    David Freel
    - YouTube
    I don’t go there except to troll.

  45. #244

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    Teaching how to swing sounds like : "Pictures of Lily made my life so wonderful !"

  46. #245

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  47. #246

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    I'm busy.

    Wait.

    D.

  48. #247

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    I can assure you I am waiting on absolute tenterhooks. Salivating with anticipation.

    What are we waiting for, again?

  49. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I can assure you I am waiting on absolute tenterhooks. Salivating with anticipation.

    What are we waiting for, again?
    White belt
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  50. #249

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    Cool.

    I couldn't work out what Bieber song he was doing tho. Maybe it was an album track?

  51. #250
    that was supposed to be music to listen to while you waited in suspense
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