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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Ha. Sorry to obsess. It's just that this one is kind of personal to me, being something which only came to me in the last few years in a real meaningful way.

    Beyond that, I hear a lot of talk about these things which shows that there's a lot of confusion at much more BASIC levels than is often being discussed. The discussion in this thread for example about "behind" and "ahead" is the real stuff IMO, the way pros talk about it, but very often, we hobbyists are using these SAME TERMS to describe actual rhythms, like triplets.
    I can see that spending to much time on this forum leads people to believe I am a hobbyist? Perhaps I've misunderstood your use of 'we.' I don't mean to be oversensitive. Probably good to get off the forum, I think.

    Anyway I'm not playing at Smalls every week. There's pro and there's pro.

    Everything I say on this subject, I got from musicians I respect. I can give you links if you like.

    "Listen to so and so on this, laying WAYYYY back behind the beat". [Plays the video, and it's a quarter note triplet]. How frustrating is that? We're talking about 2 completely different things and using the same terms.
    Wynton Marsalis uses those terms.

    I suggest checking out Do The Math regularly. Learned more from there than anywhere else online.

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    A lot of Wes has that sound to my ear. I want to say “choppy”, but that’s not the right word. There’s a subtle gap between the swing eighths that lends itself to a sort of staccato-ish sound.
    I think some of that is possibly due to the thumb. I sometimes use my thumb a bit and it gets that sound more than with a pick.

  4. #103

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    Funny thing is, I have never thought about any of this stuff much. Just always tried to copy what my heroes did on records, listen, listen, listen, get the same time feel etc.

    I suspect they did much the same, though they probably got it on the bandstand.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Funny thing is, I have never thought about any of this stuff much. Just always tried to copy what my heroes did on records, listen, listen, listen, get the same time feel etc.

    I suspect they did much the same, though they probably got it on the bandstand.
    It’s a time honoured way to do it....

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s a time honoured way to do it....
    Yes also it was because I had no books and I didn’t know any better! Probably took a long time though.

  7. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I can see that spending to much time on this forum leads people to believe I am a hobbyist? Perhaps I've misunderstood your use of 'we.' I don't mean to be oversensitive. Probably good to get off the forum, I think.

    Anyway I'm not playing at Smalls every week. There's pro and there's pro.

    Everything I say on this subject, I got from musicians I respect. I can give you links if you like.



    Wynton Marsalis uses those terms.

    I suggest checking out Do The Math regularly. Learned more from there than anywhere else online.
    No. I meant it mostly the opposite. I meant "we" as in me and others, as a DISTINCTION between what you're doing and the level at which you're doing it. I appreciate the mixing of ability levels here, and I know that some don't like distinctions like "pro". But I DO feel that the distinction is important to make occasionally, especially for my own part. Probably just personal.

    I don't know how anyone could ever think you're anything other than a pro. I hope you know that I have more respect for you than almost anyone. I have always considered it a privilege to count a few high level players here - like yourself - as friends.

    All the best, always.

  8. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Everything I say on this subject, I got from musicians I respect. I can give you links if you like.
    Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't intend anything personally directed at you.

    What I meant to express was re the fact that often (legitimate) discussions on BEAT PLACEMENT by higher level players get mis-interpreted by ams, who are interpreting basic rhythmic phrasing as being the same things which are being discussed. especially order new triplets . Anyway, that's what got me thinking about it, because that was in the post I quoted of yours.

    You can use quarter note triplets to imply a kind of "behind phrasing" feel , but players laying back and playing "behind the beat" generally is a different thing. Anyway, dancing about architecture I guess...

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    No. I meant it mostly the opposite. I meant "we" as in me and others, as a DISTINCTION between what you're doing and the level at which you're doing it. I appreciate the mixing of ability levels here, and I know that some don't like distinctions like "pro". But I DO feel that the distinction is important to make occasionally, especially for my own part. Probably just personal.

    I don't know how anyone could ever think you're anything other than a pro. I hope you know that I have more respect for you than almost anyone. I have always considered it a privilege to count a few high level players here - like yourself - as friends.

    All the best, always.
    That's really kind. I suspected I misinterpreted what you were saying. I think that says more about my state of mind than yours. I hope I wasn't too pissy.

    Bit ratty..... I think a few people are?

    I also think it's a bogus split. In a way it's not that I even mind people thinking I'm an amateur. I know amateurs on here whose playing I admire.

    But being a pro is about other stuff. Im a bit frustrated because I think people are thinking that I am talking about stuff in the abstract, but this is my day at the office. My work is stuff like - how do I swing on that tune that sped up embarrassingly last night? How do I teach this guy who can't come in on the right beat on Sonny Moon For Two how to do it? Let alone make the fella swing. But, I try different stuff and something clicks. Oh man, it's so rewarding. When I chip in here, it's based on that sort of experience.

    So when I talk about this stuff, I don't talk just about myself, it's about how I teach and what I have observed. Everyone on this thread without exception can swing if they can't do it already. It's just that they might need a different language for it to click for them.

    Joe discovered something. And I joke about saying that stuff for years, but really it's a personal thing, I can't tell him or anyone. You discover it yourself, how many times you've been told it in the abstract. You suddenly realise this thing that people have been telling you - what it ACTUALLY means.

    I think watching this Mike Moreno workshop as well as the Pasquale Grasso has put a lot of stuff in perspective. If anything I am not enough of an amateur. It's all about love.


  10. #109

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    If I do flounce off I could always come back as some impenetrable alias such as CM77. No one will guess!

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Yes also it was because I had no books and I didn’t know any better! Probably took a long time though.
    Sometimes I think that what looks on the face of it an educational disadvantage is actually an advantage. Less distractions.

  12. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    If I do flounce off I could always come back as some impenetrable alias such as CM77. No one will guess!
    wizard japes!
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  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sometimes I think that what looks on the face of it an educational disadvantage is actually an advantage. Less distractions.
    Yeah there wasn’t even the internet then. At least we had electricity in our house, we were lucky.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    wizard japes!

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That's really kind. I suspected I misinterpreted what you were saying. I think that says more about my state of mind than yours. I hope I wasn't too pissy.

    Bit ratty..... I think a few people are?

    I also think it's a bogus split. In a way it's not that I even mind people thinking I'm an amateur. I know amateurs on here whose playing I admire.

    But being a pro is about other stuff. Im a bit frustrated because I think people are thinking that I am talking about stuff in the abstract, but this is my day at the office. My work is stuff like - how do I swing on that tune that sped up embarrassingly last night? How do I teach this guy who can't come in on the right beat on Sonny Moon For Two how to do it? Let alone make the fella swing. But, I try different stuff and something clicks. Oh man, it's so rewarding. When I chip in here, it's based on that sort of experience.

    So when I talk about this stuff, I don't talk just about myself, it's about how I teach and what I have observed. Everyone on this thread without exception can swing if they can't do it already. It's just that they might need a different language for it to click for them.

    Joe discovered something. And I joke about saying that stuff for years, but really it's a personal thing, I can't tell him or anyone. You discover it yourself, how many times you've been told it in the abstract. You suddenly realise this thing that people have been telling you - what it ACTUALLY means.

    I think watching this Mike Moreno workshop as well as the Pasquale Grasso has put a lot of stuff in perspective. If anything I am not enough of an amateur. It's all about love.
    Something about this post just nails it for me. You've put a lot of self-awareness, perspective, and experience into this statement. I always follow your comments with interest as you bridge the world of the pro player and the enthusiasts like many of us here so well. You share a lot of trade-secrets that have helped a lot of us in small, incremental ways but cumulative, it has added up, certainly for me.

    I think if someone confused you for an amateur, it might be that you come across as one still so much on the learning curve, still discovering so much, that it's easy to miss the experience that is in the background.

    You are one of the reasons I keep coming to the forum. Don't ever leave, please!

    And I think you'd really like an Epiphone ES175 Premium! Just sayin'
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  16. #115
    my next thread will be “i think i finally figured out some british slang”
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  17. #116

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  18. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    not ’arf!
    well that’s a new one there innit
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  19. #118

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    it’s well ‘ard! it’s the bleedin’ dog’s!

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    But being a pro is about other stuff.
    Being a pro is to get paid for what you do, even if you do it bad.

  21. #120

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    Generally of you do it bad you don't get a repeat call tho. This is what I have found... So there's an incentive to get stuff together..

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Generally of you do it bad you don't get a repeat call tho. This is what I have found... So there's an incentive to get stuff together..
    They generally call again when it's cheap or free !

  23. #122

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    Joe -

    It's time you got your ass over here and explored some linguistic delights first-hand.

    P.S. If you really want some fun try Glasgow :-)


  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Joe -

    It's time you got your ass over here and explored some linguistic delights first-hand.

    P.S. If you really want some fun try Glasgow :-)

    The first time and the last time I had been in the UK, I had spent it in Wales in a very Welsh family, I had stayed there for 10 days. They only spoke Welsh except with myself.

  25. #124

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    That would be North Wales, probably. Very nice scenery generally.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    That would be North Wales, probably. Very nice scenery generally.
    No, South West, a village called Tenby, a very known village I think.
    i think i finally figured out how to swing-telechargement-1-jpeg
    This is Tenby and myself.

  27. #126

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    On the "pro" thing, I have my own distinction. As an amateur or hobby player, I probably have moments in my playing where I nail it as well as any pro. But... the pro has to nail it every time. The pro has to deliver a constant level of quality in a reliable way, every time. You have to be able to play the same song so many times, and make it seem fresh each time. You have to avoid getting into a rut, but in staying fresh, avoid becoming weird or getting off your best game. You have to please others with your music in a way that I as a hobby player don't need to. I can take two weeks off and not play. I can do other stuff. But the pro player rarely can afford a long stretch away from their instrument.

    I have a ton of respect for musicians who can keep up a solid level of quality in their playing gig after gig, be good at teaching lesson after lesson with often unrewarding and mediocre students and always have to be hustling to figure out how to keep a livable income going while pursuing music. That's gotta be one of the hardest jobs out there.

    You guys who do that deserve the name "pro" because that's exactly what you are.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax View Post
    No, South West, a village called Tenby, a very known village I think.
    i think i finally figured out how to swing-telechargement-1-jpeg
    This is Tenby and myself.
    It's unusual in southern Wales to use Welsh as a first language unless they're the sort of folks who want to 'keep it alive', and all that. Generally speaking, that is. Up in the valleys it's very usual and English is somewhat frowned on as a sort of usurper's language. Mind you, South West may be straying into that area a little.

    Here's an image from Wiki. It's dated 2011 but it's probably still accurate.

    i think i finally figured out how to swing-welsh_speakers_in_the_2011_census-png

    Wales - Wikipedia

    I went to Cardiff many years ago and stayed in Splott, which is a fun name. The signs are all bilingual with English first, Welsh second. Just for fun I went round asking people if they actually spoke Welsh. I spoke to shop people, road diggers, the lot. Not one of them did. Honestly!

    But my girlfriend/partner is partly Welsh (surname Jones) and I get a lot of impromptu lectures about all this. Apparently her grandfather was beaten in school for speaking Welsh. But that was a long time ago.

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax View Post
    They generally call again when it's cheap or free !
    I don’t think that’s a terribly satisfactory business model

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Here's an image from Wiki. It's dated 2011 but it's probably still accurate.

    i think i finally figured out how to swing-welsh_speakers_in_the_2011_census-png

    Wales - Wikipedia
    I had been there in April 1993, it's a very touristic place, there weren't so many retired and tourists, just people from the village, now I think this part is full of non native Welsh (retired people, people from England who want to die decently in a quiet and nice place).
    That's true, it was lovely but too young and stupid to figure out it was.

  31. #130

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    The BBC aired a TV police drama series called Hinterland, set in Wales. It was scripted bilingually in both Welsh and English. The Welsh bits had English subtitles. It was quite dark but very good.

    If you want to hear it here's an episode. I've disguised the link because this is a jazz forum (!) but you can click here and there on it to get the full effect. There's a Welsh bit at about 29.00.

    Xhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9rB-BkF1oU

  32. #131

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    There is pro and there is "pro level". My definition of "pro level" is being able to hold your own when you play with pro's. The concept of being a pro, I think, means musicianship activities being a persons main source of income.
    My own goal is to perform jazz at the "pro level". This is I think sometimes called "part-time pro" or carrier musician (ie. a musician who relies on a another carrier for income and plays occasional gigs with pros). These are not the most sought after musicians in their cities but I know some who are very good at being "part time pros".
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-26-2018 at 08:00 AM.

  33. #132

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    Semi-pro. But I really like 'part-time pro' :-)

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    There is pro and there is "pro level". My definition of "pro level" is being able to hold your own when you play with pro's. The concept of being a pro, I think, means musicianship activities being a persons main source of income.
    My own goal is to perform jazz at the "pro level". This is sometimes called "part-time pro" or carrier musician (ie. a musician who relies on a another carrier for income and plays occasional gigs with pros). These are not the most sought after musicians in their cities but I know some who are very good at being "part time pros".
    I’m not sure it’s even that cut and dried.

    The Moreno workshop gives an idea of what is required to become a world class pro. But that’s NYC.

    OTOH I know plenty of players who are playing every night in London who don’t necessarily play amazing - the ones who are great at organisation, booking gigs and that type of stuff. These guys can book the best players in town.

    I think jazz is to some extent a meritocracy though in that the people at the top have done a phenomenal amount of work on their playing.

    Most of us are somewhere in the middle.

  35. #134

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    thanks for the Mike Moreno video,,,,Mike is now on Band in a Box as an Artist Performance Soloist....real tracks... I just bought it as an add on...and tried Mike on BLues For ALice..3 chorus Solo....Delightful...dont know if mike really does those Note LEaps...athlete..wonder if theres something in Options..i think i finally figured out how to swing-mike-jpg

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxss View Post
    thanks for the Mike Moreno video,,,,Mike is now on Band in a Box as an Artist Performance Soloist....real tracks... I just bought it as an add on...and tried Mike on BLues For ALice..3 chorus Solo....Delightful...dont know if mike really does those Note LEaps...athlete..wonder if theres something in Options..i think i finally figured out how to swing-mike-jpg
    That is hilarious.

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxss View Post
    thanks for the Mike Moreno video,,,,Mike is now on Band in a Box as an Artist Performance Soloist....real tracks... I just bought it as an add on...and tried Mike on BLues For ALice..3 chorus Solo....Delightful...dont know if mike really does those Note LEaps...athlete..wonder if theres something in Options..i think i finally figured out how to swing-mike-jpg
    Extra high A string.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Pat Martino?

    Actually I don't hear dexter as staccato at all. He does that thing where he plays dead straight against a swinging rhythm section though, that's just great, and instantly identifiable.
    He doesn't play straight, he is laid back, things don't seem to be accurate but the feeling is there, modern sax players don't play like this anymore, that charming thing has gone because of conservatories.
    On the alto saxophone, I appreciate a lot Jackie McLean.

  39. #138
    it’s straight AND laid back. straight meaning even eighth motes, laid back meaning down beats slightly behind and swubg eighths locked in. trust me guys im somewhat of an expert as i figured this out over 2 days ago. in fact speaking of pros, i guess i can consider myself an honorary pro bc i know this secret and know all the cushtie slang.
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  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’m not sure it’s even that cut and dried.

    The Moreno workshop gives an idea of what is required to become a world class pro. But that’s NYC.

    OTOH I know plenty of players who are playing every night in London who don’t necessarily play amazing - the ones who are great at organisation, booking gigs and that type of stuff. These guys can book the best players in town.

    I think jazz is to some extent a meritocracy though in that the people at the top have done a phenomenal amount of work on their playing.

    Most of us are somewhere in the middle.
    Hum...
    Sometimes it's all about connections.
    You know, I know a guy who... OK... Let's try... He is OK.
    It depends also where you are located.
    It's a bit like a community, they are from the music school you studied, it's OK, he knows a guy who... etc.
    C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron.

    The other day I played with someone who played with wonderful musicians, now he's back to his native region.

    And I said : "Man you played with the greatest, now you are playing with me, what a career !"

  41. #140
    [QUOTE=Lionelsax;893167]
    C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron.

    is this British slang?
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  42. #141

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    [QUOTE=joe2758;893168]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax View Post
    C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron.

    is this British slang?
    Don't call me a British.

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax View Post
    Hum...
    Sometimes it's all about connections.
    You know, I know a guy who... OK... Let's try... He is OK.
    It depends also where you are located.
    It's a bit like a community, they are from the music school you studied, it's OK, he knows a guy who... etc.
    C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron.

    The other day I played with someone who played with wonderful musicians, now he's back to his native region.

    And I said : "Man you played with the greatest, now you are playing with me, what a career !"
    Sure, it helps to know people, gotta network..

    But if you are motherfucker you will get gigs. But obviously not if you stay in your bedroom lol.

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    But if you are motherfucker ...
    Sounds like you read the autobiography of Miles Davis
    For those who don't know, that's a Miles Davis adjective not a British slang as far as I know. It's reserved for those who reached the highest level of mastery with their instrument.
    Using it in a sentence: "Bud Powell is a real motherfucker."
    If you're really good, but not a monster, you're earn to the meager title, "bad".
    Sentence: "That guy got the place moving last night, he was real bad." (note, no "motherfucker")

  45. #144
    interesting tal, i thought they were interchangable
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  46. #145
    ive heard bad motherfucker plenty as well, hmmm
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  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sure, it helps to know people, gotta network..

    But if you are motherfucker you will get gigs. But obviously not if you stay in your bedroom lol.
    - Hey man, that's good, great, where you from, how comes you went the jam session in SADP but M is faraway, how comes you know we were playing ?
    - I'm from T ?
    - Shit ! I thought you were from M.
    - What are you doing there ?
    - I am working.
    - When you go to M call us.
    - But we could play in SADP
    - No... Forget it... There is nothing here.

    A call, another guy not far from I live :

    - Lionel, I've got a gig...
    - Yes, that's good.
    - I've got a set list... Impressions...
    - Stop, I want you to play it AABA 32 bars...
    - No... those are conventions, I play it the way I want, I've got experience... Trust me... Jazz is not commercial music.
    - Can you tell me when you're comping or soloing because I can't really hear the difference, I need space. Don't forget... on Night And Day, respect AABA form...
    - I don't care I've got experience... Come on... Are you ambitious ? Trust me.
    - Why do you play every blues in C ?
    - It's easier for me, please, don't ask, it's easier on a piano.
    - OK...

    We play it's quite OK but not as I would like.

    - Come on Lionel, are you ambitious ? I know a bunch of guys ?
    - I have got a set list.
    - Yeah... Yeah.. I know them all.

    At the gig...

    - I know them but I forgot them... Hey... Blues in C
    - Why ?
    - It's easier on the piano.

    But this guy, if he stopped messing around, he would be great... Believe me.

    When I've got a gig, he is always there but...

    The other ones are too far or need more than one gig.

    So... every time, the first words of the conversations are : "Give me a gig."

    And it's true there is nothing where I live.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    it’s straight AND laid back. straight meaning even eighth motes, laid back meaning down beats slightly behind and swubg eighths locked in. trust me guys im somewhat of an expert as i figured this out over 2 days ago. in fact speaking of pros, i guess i can consider myself an honorary pro bc i know this secret and know all the cushtie slang.
    Yeah, that's exactly how I'd describe dexter.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Yeah, that's exactly how I'd describe dexter.
    When I first start trying my hand at jazz a few years ago, I transcribed Dexter's solo on Herbie's original Watermelon Man recording. Some notes are so far behind the beat I was afraid Dex was going to fall off the podium.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    When I first start trying my hand at jazz a few years ago, I transcribed Dexter's solo on Herbie's original Watermelon Man recording. Some notes are so far behind the beat I was afraid Dex was going to fall off the podium.
    But the spacing is almost dead even, no?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    ive heard bad motherfucker plenty as well, hmmm
    The other day a guy called me a motherfucker. But I don't think he had read Miles David's autobiography.