The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    During my solos, when I'm playing with other musicians or over a backing track, I am usually aware of where I am, because I know the tune. I'm at least aware of the important landmarks of the tune like key changes, turnarounds and what not. I can hear when I am approaching these moments and adjust my solo, hit (or avoid) key notes etc.
    When I try to play a solo without a backing track of the tune or someone to comping me, just with the metronome on 2&4 or just by tapping my foot however I can easily loose track of exactly where I am after a few bars. If I am playing patterns or arpeggios with continuous 8th notes of course this is not an issue. But if I'm playing more freely rhythmically and focusing on my lines, I lose track of the form without a backing track after a while.
    Is this something you experience as well? If so what methods do you use to improve?
    If not how did you overcome this?

    What I do to improve this is I lay out a solo plan and play it with metronome on 2&4 for a few choruses. Then change the plan and play a few more. Then mix them on the fly. Then decide on a bar or two where I'll play freely then go back to the plan.
    A plan is a bunch of patterns and rhythms that's assigned to specific bars. Patterns are adjusted to the chord in the moment of course.
    Say:
    - Play 5 6 7 9 pattern with a specific rhythm for the first 4 bars.
    - Play arpeggios from the 3rds using another rhythm for next 4 bars.
    - Play the head for the next 4 bars (part of head that corresponds to the area).
    ...

    I may come up with some of the rhythms or use a rhythm from a given bar of transcribed solo or just from a rhythm book.
    After a few choruses I change the plan, then mix up, then start inserting "free sections" like I said before.
    I'd like to hear if there are other good ways this can be be worked on.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-16-2018 at 05:51 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    You've gotta be able to hear the chord changes in your head. Years of improvising with only the metronome seem to have helped me develop this skill.
    Start with easy changes to imagine e.g. I to V7, and build up to more complex ones, and eventually tunes.
    Backing tracks have a negative side. You become accustomed to not hearing the changes in your head because they're being fed to you.
    Playing jazz live with another musician(s) requires that you listen to what the other musicians are playing, both harmonically and rhythmically. It's a whole different thing than playing with backing tracks.

  4. #3

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    You should start with something you know inside out, a tune without that many things going on. A blues, for example.

    Pick a comfortable tempo at which you can outline the changes without tensing up too much or trying too hard to make the changes. Maybe to start, comp freely for a chorus or two, then play the scale outlines for the blues, then play arpeggios. Doing all of this should consolidate the sound of the changes in your ear, and when you think you're ready try and do a whole chorus.

    If you keep failing. Practice in 4 bar sections. Comp the first 4 bars, and blow on the second 4 bars, go back to comping for the last 4. Then for the second chorus you're blowing on the first 4 bars etc. This can be down with a metronome or rubato (free time).

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by don_oz; 09-01-2018 at 05:21 AM. Reason: Typo

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    During my solos, when I'm playing with other musicians or over a backing track, I am usually aware of where I am, because I know the tune. I'm at least aware of the important landmarks of the tune like key changes, turnarounds and what not. I can hear when I am approaching these moments and adjust my solo, hit (or avoid) key notes etc.
    When I try to play a solo without a backing track of the tune or someone to comping me, just with the metronome on 2&4 or just by tapping my foot, however I can easily loose track of exactly where I am after a few bars. If I am playing patterns or arpeggios with continuous 8th notes of course this is not an issue. But if I'm playing more freely rhythmically and focusing on my lines, I lose track of the form without a backing track after a while.
    The concept of "knowing the tune" is not universally agreed upon. Variations of what might be meant:

    - "I can play it when the sheet music/lead sheet is on the stand"

    - "I know the form as A1 A2 B A3, the key, and the progression chord type names"

    - "I know the Roman numeral chord type labels and their order for the song"

    - "I know how it goes"

    To me, that last one means more than the others- it means what I grasp is not dependent on any specific perspective, but a more abstract internal general recognition that is resistant to deviate instances of the song - e.g., various keys, various reharmonizations, various rhythms, presence or absence of vocals, instrumentation, liberties with the form, etc...

    To me this means knowing the song is not characterized by a list of anything, or as counted sections of anything, but more like "all the ways it could sound". This is more than hearing a single version of how it goes... it is hearing it in more ways than one, at the same time, in real time... I've called it a mental "cloud" around the music of the moment from which and through which a specific instance of a path is selected for playing. The "knowing how it goes" is really my mind's ear hearing the tune's cloud of melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic possibilities.

  6. #5
    Thanks for good suggestions. Blues usually doesn't present this problem to me. It has a shorter form and I've been hearing and playing it since long before I started studying jazz. But I guess that also makes it a good form to further burn 1 bar, 4 bar, 8 bar durations.
    Longer forms, newly acquired repertoire certainly are more where the difficultly lies.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-16-2018 at 01:15 PM.

  7. #6

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    Yes, I can keep track of where I am without accompaniment. This is something I practice consciously. When I learn a tune, I spend a lot of time just playing chords and/or quasi chord-melody style (not fully realized arrangements, but stuff like a chord hit on the first beat of every measure), rather than just blowing. I do stuff like pay attention to modulations, cadences, and turnarounds and consciously count beats to make sure I don't drop or add anything at the end of a section or at a repeat. I also record myself and listen back to identify spots where I get lost. But the most important thing is to have the melody deeply ingrained in your mind. Practice the melody a lot, and if possible get the lyrics. The phrasing of the melody tells you more about the form than anything else. Even with all that, I can still get lost sometimes, especially with tunes that have multiple sections that are almost the same

    John

  8. #7
    +1 for quasi chord-melody.
    I recently started doing simple chord-melodies as a way to burn the pulse of the song. 8th or quarter note chords inserted on various beats and single note lines in between. Chord on the first beat is usually how I start.
    Being aware of the head at all times has been helpful as well.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-16-2018 at 12:23 PM.

  9. #8

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    I can keep up on most tunes, most of the time, until a drum solo comes along. With most drummers, I have no idea where they are in their solo, nor when they'll end it. I think that's mostly because they don't know, either. I think the old joke is wrong, and the drum solo is worse than the bass solo. At least with a bass I can hear chord changes.

  10. #9

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    Yes...I don't "know" a tune until I can.

    Most surefire way to get good at it is to learn to sing the melody in your head, and put the backing tracks AWAY.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Yes...I don't "know" a tune until I can.
    Clever. I like it.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-20-2018 at 06:44 AM.

  12. #11
    I guess the danger of practicing with backing tracks is that the process becomes too forgiving. When you loose track of the form it's possible to recalibrate with the backing track sometimes even subconsciously. Without accompaniment the micro cracks in following the form quickly become full blown catastrophes.

  13. #12

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    Totally agree with Jeff here. Also playing a tune solo is and end goal in itself, and I don’t mean chord melody.

  14. #13

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    I can't really recall having this problem but I have played with drummers that can be quite sneaky and it can be easy to turn things around or lose your when a really inventive drummer is playing. My thing is to always be hearing the melody kind of in the back of my head, it's very hard to get lost if you know the melody well.

    personally I would take care to focus on the melody in your solo, continually referencing it and coming back to it. at any point, you should be able to stop soloing and sing the next phrase of the melody. if you can't do this, spend more time just playing the melody.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    Totally agree with Jeff here. Also playing a tune solo is and end goal in itself, and I don’t mean chord melody.
    Agreed!

    I actually play solo in this manner...I don't like overly busy chord melody things, tires my ear. So when I play solo, I'm hearing bass, drums, and melody in my head.

    I think this is important enough that I make it a point to learn to play any song I learn "solo," even if I have no intention of actually ever playing it that way "for real."

    Playing solo too, you learn all sorts of fun tricks for if you should get lost...if you internalize the form of a tune, at least, you can at least land on your feet on the next section on time with everyone else more times than not.

  16. #15
    Interesting. Looks like I've been doing the opposite. Just hearing the chords in my head. Like a backing track playing in my head, sustaining a chord and changing to the next chord. But I guess that doesn't contain as much rhythmic information to help keep the form well. Maybe I developed backingtrackosis.

  17. #16
    I will start singing the melody in my head to improve staying on track. But also just curious, do you guys think it's a worthy goal to be able do that without singing the melody?
    Suppose you're given a chord progression, no head. You are to learn the progression and improvise. No explicit counting. Just focusing on coming up with lines over the progression you learned. You start playing after a while someone says "stop" and you're to say where exactly you were when you stopped (and be right). Something like "& of 3 of the 12th bar".
    Is that something to train for? Developing a strong sense of inner pulse I guess is required for that. I imagine nobody can do this perfectly every time, but I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-16-2018 at 04:18 PM.

  18. #17

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    As inspiration on this topic, I recommend listening to Steve Lacy's solo performances of Monk. In contrast to the guitar and the piano, the soprano sax is a monophonic instrument. With a single linear-melodic voice, how do you convey the identity of the song form while improvising? How do you make something like that compelling? Lacy is the absolute master of this.

  19. #18

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    What really helped me is pacing. I have practicing this like it was suggested by ML in "How to improvise" with backing tracks.
    You just gotta practice something to be able to perform it later.
    I've played, I'll rest now.

    Sent from my SM-C7000 using Tapatalk

  20. #19
    Not sure if this is what OP is really asking for, but being able to hear in bigger chunks is really important. Most of us hear one measure at a time in the beginning. Anyway, one kind of mechanical device which helps and which can be applied to playing "free" or whatever is to use some rhythmic devices , macro not necessarily micro, which FORCE longer phrases.

    So, instead of quarter or eighth note phrases and accents, if you begin a phrase with dotted quarter notes (or even just accents that kind of imply that dotted quarter note) , you end up with phrases which "want to be" four bars or so. The thing is , if you do it kind of mechanically for the first phrase or two, your ears re- adjust to hearing those longer phrases by default , and then you don't think about it.

  21. #20

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    Yea... typical guitarist approach.... try and get something together by working on anything except what it is.
    Right... learn the melody... no the changes etc...

    What do all or any approach to staying in Time or not loosing your place when playing a tune have in common....they all fit into a specified space. Which is generally Form... The physical time and organization of that Space... Form.

    You can call that whatever you choose.... but it doesn't change. If it's 12 bars..... it's 12 bars. You can organize that 12 bars anyway you choose.... but it is 12 bars.

    The pulse of how that space .... the tempo... is organized.

    Learning tunes by memory or whatever... works, but your memorizing a tune... not learning how to stay in time and know where you are.

    Yea Rhythm is everything when you don't have it.... it's the starting point, what you need to get together first.

    (Disclaimer... you need to work on everything together).

    But when you perform with other musicians.... you need to have your rhythmic skills together first.

    You can make melodic and harmonic mistakes while playing and still get through a performance .... but when rhythm breaks down.... You'll crash and burn...

    As Matt was bringing up... the process of subdividing.... finding a common pulse that works with the style and feel of whatever tune your playing is basic starting process when playing tunes..... that would be... What is the agreed common pulse used to create and count... feel etc...the rhythmically organization of what your playing.

    Then the spatial organization of the tune.... The Form..., how the space,(tune) is organized into sections.(ABA), Your creating the perception of... Repeat.

    If you get lost or loose the feel.... etc.... You need to work on rhythmic skills.

    If you need a melody or changes .... you might not have your time and rhythmic skills together yet....

    If you don't work on Time...it usually doesn't happen. Time needs to be internal. You need to develop your internal pulse.

    Time can still change when your playing.... Players can push and pull when playing, but it's done by choice and with agreement to help create more feel etc... And your aware of what's going on.

    There are millions of ways to work on.... most are pretty obviously when you decide to work on it.

  22. #21
    Thanks, posts so far have been very useful and relevant, but I'll still just restate the OP more concisely (not suggesting it needs to), my goal is to be able to learn a tune to an extend that without any accompaniment or using metronome I can freely improvise from beginning to end, never losing track of where I am in the tune at all times.
    I can do that when I'm jamming with other players or over a backing track if I know (?) the tune as I can adjust to the cues by ear if I slip as the tune goes along, usually without catastrophic consequences.
    I agree working on internal pulse is the key. Please share if you know good methods of working on pulse.
    The method I'm currently using is the one I recently devised and posted about (I'll put a link below). The method is essentially starting with playing over the chords of the tune with looper playing chords with whole tone rhythm, which means subdividing the bar internally. Gradually "accompaniment content" is reduced to chords "1 bar on 1 bar off", "4 bars on 4 bars off" to eventually 1 full chorus with chords playing and 1 full chorus without. There is an in between step where chords play 2 beats on, 2 beats off. This is used to interpret chords as playing on beats 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 or & of 1 and & of 3 etc.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-06-2018 at 01:44 PM.

  23. #22

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    Barry Harris scale outlines—i thought you were into it? did you move on? between that and having the melody in my head I’m ok. if you can play the scale outline at 200 bpm without thinking i can’t imagine you could get lost. both the scale outline and melody will help your phrasing too

  24. #23

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    Understanding that concept of FORM is huge...just being keenly aware of how the tune is structured...

    Ever play "So What" with people who don't?

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Barry Harris scale outlines—i thought you were into it? did you move on? between that and having the melody in my head I’m ok. if you can play the scale outline at 200 bpm without thinking i can’t imagine you could get lost. both the scale outline and melody will help your phrasing too
    Barry Harris scale outline is playing ascending scales over the tune. It's not free improvisation. As I said in the OP, I don't have trouble with following the form if I am playing a pre-determined pattern. It's very hard to get lost when you do that. But the difficulty is staying with the form while freely improvising without accompaniment.

  26. #25

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    scale outline is an exercise to drill the form into your head not to practice scales (though iguess it helps that too). anyway it helps me, and i dont play scales when i improvise