Can you keep track of where you are without accompaniment?

[Tal_175]

scale outline is an exercise to drill the form into your head not to practice scales (though iguess it helps that too). anyway it helps me, and i dont play scales when i improvise

Oh I see. I guess starting with scale outlines and after a couple of choruses gradually moving away from scales to more freer phrases can be a good method.

[Reg]

Yea... a lot of approaches will work to some degree.... I'm old have played with all types of musicians and venues etc ...

There are great players who can cover... by that I mean they know where they are etc.... but then there the players who feel time, they don't need music to know where they are.... It's different. Most musicians... basically follow time... in a performance context. they don't crash and burn, but they are in the moment and are following the pulse... not creating etc...

I have great time... because I worked on time when I was a kid, studied with Alan Dawson when I was at Berklee and other Cuban percussionist .... not learning tunes, or melodies etc... which is obviously great, required and part of getting your musicianship together ... yadaaaa... But if you want great time.... you need to separate working on time from everything else. You can still do your sweet spot looper thing....

If you have a looper or some other type of pulse devise.... Create a space... probably start simple.... 4 bars phrase. And create start working on subdividing that 4 bar phrase... play rhythmic patterns that lock, create that feel or perception of repeat.

I did these type of studies on drums and percussion instruments. back when I was kid....was just part of daily routine, my weekly practice schedule. But I'm sure if you looped a bass line or simple pedal or ostinado like pattern.... would work. And then play over the four bar phrase using all the different possibilities... 3 on 4 etc.... very mechanical. But that's the POINT.... your trying to create a very mechanical internal pulse....

Generally when your working on the memorize tune etc... your working on the tune or melody.... and the rhythmic and time thing is some what a result. When you have time... you can create feels . Which is another skill and comes after you have time.

I played a Big Band Gig last night... was a sub for the pianist. So just trio and hadn't gigged with the bassist or Durmmer. But we were all rhythm section players.... we all had time. Drummer and bassist were pretty straight.... so that's what we did. By the 2nd tune we were happening.... (I do hate sight reading piano books etc... but that's part of the job). Anyway we were creating the pulse and feel for the horn sections to play off.

So before you can accomplish your goal.... you need the skills. Trying to get something together without having the individual skills required usually never really gets there.

[Tal_175]

If you don't work on Time...it usually doesn't happen.

There have been a few things that happened for me without having to work hard at them. Music ain't none of them.

[joe2758]

Hey Tal, were you posts referring to practicing/shedding, performing, or practicing performing (this is what it sounded like to me?)?

[Tal_175]

Hey Tal, were you posts referring to practicing/shedding, performing, or practicing performing (this is what it sounded like to me?)?

It's really about working on a core skill. Doing drills to get the pulse beating
Nevertheless I like to do even the most fundamental things in the context of a tune. Even if what I'm doing at a given time might be too mechanical to sound like music, the tune is still the mental context for me but at a more abstract level.

[fep]

For me not whether I can, it's whether I do. I'm always keeping track of where I'm at, accopanyment or not. For better or worse it's just what I do. Where I have difficulty is when the song stays on one chord for a long time... like 16 measures as in So What.

[vsaumarez]

You are kind of doing this when you are playing with accompaniment ie using an in-built sense of time but not having an aural guide and pulse means you may have to sacrifice some freedom. That’s probably no bad thing since some of that creative freedom may be more relevant in the context of accompaniment. For example, if using space to create interest it might be lost on your listeners.

[christianm77]

Btw I see the study of rhythm generally as slightly separate from the problem of keeping track of the form. Perhaps this is a mistake.

[Tal_175]

Btw I see the study of rhythm generally as slightly separate from the problem of keeping track of the form. Perhaps this is a mistake.

I think that was Reg's point as well. One's inner pulse should be strong enough to guide them through the form without having to rely on the melody, changes or other specifics of the tune. Of course one needs to know these to play lines and comp but sense of pulse alone should suffice to prevent one from going off the rails.
Another drill I started doing is chord-melody style. I come up with a 2 bar rhythm. Very sparse. I comp through a tune using this 2 bar rhythm. Say reverse Charleston or something. First bar 8th note chord on the 4+. Second bar on 2 (again 8th note). So I comp through the tune using this pre-planned 2 bar rhythm. Once I'm comfortable with comping with that rhythm, I start to fill the space with improvised lines or a bass line. Next day come up with a different 2 bar rhythm. Quite a work out (for me).
Looping also is good. Playing over sparsely comped say 4 bar vamp or a bass line. The idea is to be able to play very free rhythmically and still stay with the form when the backing isn't very explicit.

[jordanklemons]

I haven't read all the responses yet, but to the OP...

I tend to prefer working on things in smaller and smaller chunks. If there's an issue, I don't place a lot of worry or priority on everything. I break it down. So if I'm having a hard time improvising over a form with no accompaniment without getting lost, I might break the form down. If it's an AABA tune, I might just practice playing over the A section A LOT. Or Just the B section. It gets me inside a part of the tune, and it narrows the length of time and information I have to hold onto. If this is too hard, I might pull back to just 4 bars of music. Maybe even just 2 bars if it's that tricky.

Eventually I would then start putting the chunks back together like puzzle pieces. So if I can do A on loop. And if I can do B on loop. I might try AB. Or BA. Or AAB. Slowly working my way up to the full form.

This idea has pretty much always served me well. If there's an issue - break things down into tiny pieces, pick one piece, work absurdly slowly on it until I get it, then work on all of the other pieces individually, then eventually recombine, then bring up to speed.

[eh6794-2.0]

When I play by myself, the melody is going on in my head. My playing is me interacting with the melody I hear in my head. If I can't hear the melody on my head, then I'm just regurgitating memorized lines when I play.

[Reg]

So Taking Jordon's approach, the micro approach. What are you doing? Are you just memorizing smaller pieces and then putting them together... until you've memorized larger pieces? Or are you finding elements of the music that you don't know, don't understand... etc... and figuring them out.... I don't know.... but

Personally I can play all wrong shit on a tune that I have no idea of what's going on...and still always know where I am... I played a bebop style gig yesterday... lots of AABA tunes. A sax player, old friend sat in for a set... we were talking too much, catching up.... and there were a few times... when too many "A" were played....I just felt the change... Didn't say or do anything... just made eye contact and adjusted the form... I don't care... the goal is for the band and the music to sound as good as we can...

Generally we as rhythm section players... sometimes melodic etc... we play patterns that set up the form.... you need to do this naturally... In an A A B A tune.... you set up the B section and set up the end going to the beginning of the tune.... Your naturally setting up big picture targets of the 1st A and the B... or if you like

A......... A....... B..........A
strong weak strong weak

This is like harmonic rhythm 101.... you can do this rhythmically, harmonically or even melodically.... but you need to feel this.... you don't always need to bang this out.... but it needs to be implied.

This same concept works with any organization of time or meter....

If you just played a percussion instrument.... would you still get lost? Have you just smoked way too much .... what is creating the loss of time. When you walk... do you sometimes skip a left or right step... if something else is going on?

Personally... I believe most get lost or lose place when they're trying to play something memorized. As compared to fitting something memorized into an existing shape. Not good analogy... but one is adjusting time to fit what you have memorized, and the other is adjusting what you have memorized to fit into existing Time.

I've always stressed FORM when playing music.... when you learn a tune... where do you start?