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I suppose some refer to it as "side slipping", but regardless, what are your fave solos from any instrument (preferably from the Hard Bop - early Post Bop era) that exhibit this aspect to improvisation? And which guitarists do you think do/did this kinda of thing particularly well?
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07-21-2018 01:41 AM
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John Scofield
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The famous “take the a train” solo from Eric Dolphy is IMO, the finest example of “out” playing I’ve ever heard. Here the first chorus of the break on guitar. I posted a transcription of it here if anyone wants it. Just search threads I created, should be close to the top. I really learned a lot from this.
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These guys:
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The examples are endless.... Scofield is great at it, McLaughlin.
These get stuck in my head:
Freddie Hubbard on Impressions (w Turrentine)
The keyboardist with Benson on Take Five
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Scofield
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George Benson is always out.
Sent from my SM-C7000 using Tapatalk
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i have a whole series on this.
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All above mentioned plus Pat Metheny and many more. Those big guys can do this easily, that's more "hearing" than technique or theory.
Here'e my first attempt to play like this following some yt tutorial. Out start appr 3:00
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Dave Liebman. It’s got to be intimidating to share a stage with him, even if your name is Wayne Shorter.
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Ben Monder. He take the blues form and steadily takes it out, always within the form.
Mingus worked with musicians who were adept at inside and outside playing and nobody had a better command than Roland Kirk.
This Carnage Hall lineup runs the gamut. Listen to George Adams take it out, then Roland Kirk takes it OUT, always bringing it back in.
Kirk's solo begins about 9:30.
I love Brecker's playing too, he did this well.
Trane:
So much of this is rhythmic. It hangs on the phrasing.
David
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Well it's got to be Coltrane for me.
What the hell is going on here? No idea.
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Marc Ribot
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 07-25-2018 at 12:38 AM.
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Wow, that Turrentine cut is awesome, Benson's playing and sound on it is fantastic., as is everyone's really.
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
The keys player on Benson's Bad album is Kenny Barron, and yes, text book side slipping there!
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My all time favorite cat for this is Woody Shaw. He always does this great, and the most famous examples are probably on Dexter Gordon's "Homecoming":
I also really liked reading George Cables talk about this stuff in this interview:
Interview with George Cables (Part 1) | DO THE M@TH
My takeaway from reading stuff like this is that a lot of the folks I love best thought about this stuff, but didn't particularly overthink it, either, and as always, the sound is the most important thing. There's interviews with Woody shaw where he talks about just playing different scales because he'd get bored with the traditional sounds.EI: I remember the first time I learned the “So What” chord.
GC: Yes. “WOOOOOOW!” Ha. Yeah. You got those, you don’t play the third, you play the fourth. “Huh, four, four chords, fourth chords! Fourth chords, OK…” and then you had the John Mehegan book, which was very popular too.
EI: Oh, really?
GC: I didn’t really go through it, but people were talking about the A and the B voicings so that’s about as far as I got, I scanned what I thought I needed, what I was looking for. “OK, you can use that fourth voicing with a D in the bass, or you can make it a B-flat maj9, or a 6/9, or you could use it for other things.” And so you notice that you’re playing partials. You start playing the root position, but then you realize for minor, it’s not like playing a root with a major, it’s not being root-bound so much. And then the dominant chord, that gets ultra consonant with just the 1-3-5-7.
Some of the chords were from word of mouth: some guys liked Herbie’s record Takin’ Off. I was looking for some voicings, and I had already learned from the third, I’m voicing from the seventh, and the close voicings, and the voicings with the fourths, that was going around, that was the new discovery for all the young guys, “Wow, did you check that out, check that voicing out, that’s hip!”
Then you have to figure out what are you going to play with your right hand. John Mehegan said—as I remember—it was like a Bill Evans kind of thing, I mean, that was what we related it to, anyway. We would play the solo in the right hand, and these voicings for the left hand.
So now, with two-handed voicing, how were we going to play these things we heard, the sounds that the guys were getting? At that time, I thought that Herbie Hancock was an extension of Wynton Kelly. One day I was listening to Takin’ Off. I had been listening to it for a while, but one day it just gets clear, and boom, it rings a bell, like, “Damn, it’s only three or four notes in the left hand, and he doubled something in the right, thirteenth or a fifth, or the root or something. Oh man, you mean that’s all? I’ve been trying to play all twelve notes to get there!”
And then you learn, OK, sometime less is more, sometimes you need to voice strategically, so you know, you can’t double what you have completely in both hands, that doesn’t work at all.
I was looking for kind of a sound, kind of a direction. When you’re talking about upper partials, you don’t have to play just that voicing. It’s not written in stone: you can take stuff away so you get different sounds. That’s what you’re looking for.
I always felt that Miles and Herbie were playing with colors rather than chords. I would hear these sound colors, and not hear the chord so much.
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Great examples. I think I'm interested at the moment to know more about any early examples of in/out. Obviously it became a fetish for guys like Ornette, Dolphy and later Trane, but what about early(ish) examples where the player only dared to go out sometimes ?
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There were a bunch of guys during the 50's and on, with their feet in bop and more outside explorations. Chico Hamilton, George Russell, Lenny Tristano, Steve Lacy, Jimmy Giuffre, all had groups with interesting combinations of sidemen that were important modern players.
Good luck with research and discovering stuff that fits what you're looking for.
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Interesting to hear them side by side. As much I love Shorter, all the way back to his stint with Art Blakey, gotta say Liebman left a deeper impression on me here. I mean, he's equally "out", but more melodic... or something... Same thing I felt when hearing the Cannon / Trane cut. Cannonball knew how to slip out and in when he wanted to, but was always about melodic invention as opposed to "pattern" explorations. Not dissing Trane or Shorter, - after all I think I'm forming a style these days that is based on patterns as well - but just stating that I think I prefer listening to the great "melodists", Cannon, Wes, Getz, Dexter, Rollins etc. They did the in/out thing too, without it being overbearing. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I guess Joe Henderson and Oliver Nelson are others I can think of that had that kinda balance. Early Herbie and Freddie too I suppose, but I'm sure there's plenty others I'm yet to discover, which I look forward to.
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Yeah, what about Herbie? His short solo starts at about 5:45
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What do you consider early examples? Late 50's...late 80's...it helps to choose a period in the continuum. Too much in/out music to seek random examples. IMO. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Great examples. I think I'm interested at the moment to know more about any early examples of in/out. Obviously it became a fetish for guys like Ornette, Dolphy and later Trane, but what about early(ish) examples where the player only dared to go out sometimes ?
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I was thinking mid 50's might have been the earliest, I might be wrong....? And yeah, after the mid 60's I guess it was de riguer, and it became a bit over done for my tastes, although I still like some players after that period like Liebman and Brecker. I like hearing that definite shift between in and out, with not so much of the "grey" area, if that makes any sense. Yup, call me old fashioned! Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Tatum and Byas were the first guys to play a cycle of 4ths sequence (F#7-B7-E7-A7-D7-G7-C7-F7) over the first 4 bars of Rhythm Changes tunes. This live Town Hall duo recording with Don Byas and Slam Stewart is pretty out for 1945: Originally Posted by djg
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Without regard for any out playing, Byas's "inside" playing is phenomenal! Sure, it's mainly in the Swing tradition, but surely he was "the man" before Parker came along. I always wonder how he must have felt when Parker took all that attention away from a master like himself. If you played Byas and Bird to a casual listener today I doubt that one would suggest that Bird was clearly the "better" player. It's interesting just how switched on even the casual listener back in the day would had to have been to have sensed how Parker's style introduced subtle harmonic departures (as well as rhythmic ), let alone to be totally swept away by them... Originally Posted by PMB
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What I ask myself is this:
Say the only music there existed was the 'modern' atonal, free, modal, out, whatever, stuff. No classical harmonies, just the new stuff. What kind of people would we be?
Thing is, it's not the only kind. There's the normal music all around so the modern stuff provides an interesting divertissement to it. Quite nice.
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1930's outside playing
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