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We've been discussing this a bit, so why not a whole thread?
Short video showing a few ideas. Let's discuss and add others below.
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07-16-2018 06:15 PM
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Nice! The only thing I liked more than some of your sounds and lines was your facial expression at the one you weren't digging so much! hahaha
Sounds really nice... very clear examples.
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is the game a major 7 on any degree i want to make it work as a dom function?
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See what you can make work...I did my 4 favorites...
1/2 step above and below I, tritone from ii, and m3 above I.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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I've added some colour to them. I suppose almost anything's fine as long as it doesn't clash with anything else and resolves okay.
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Cool, yeah, they need color, as you say, to make them work for comping...that's a slippery slope, some of these you might not just pull on the fly without discussing.
I was showing them as a way of generating lines over V.
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Yes, well, lines by me were distinctly absent, not that I couldn't have.
Strangely it was your lines that I found interesting and caught the ear. I saw them as a sort of free bonus with the chord ideas. Generating 'chords that work' wasn't a problem at all but it would certainly have been more interesting had I put in lines too.
Another time maybe
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Boy, I should have been more clear in my OP--I was definitely talking about using these subs to generate lines...I'm sure hoping nobody thought I was talking about comping with these using those vanilla root position drop 2 and 3 chords like I played in the example!
Now unlike my post, Joe and rag's posts do have some very nice sounds in the chords, just stuff you'd have to pare down and be pretty careful with playing with a group...now solo playing, different story...
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my b
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No, nothing bad about it-- you and rag proved it could be useful on the other side of playing as well.
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Mr. B yes, re GB's phrasing,
thats often what makes or breaks it on this stuff & not always a case of great note choice (although it helps).
many dont know how to groove with MM they need lessons from Reg ................. undisputed world champ of Melodic Minor Groove and the other sauces.
Altered is from Melodic Minor.......... also Augmented scale or Harmonic Min
many may just be happy playing "The altered notes" without groove/phrasing
many play Barry Harris Bebop scales (no disrespect, Barry.......ever)
without attention to the groove which is essentially understanding the "and"
where phrases start and finish especially altered & bebop makes the difference between good or crap. etc
so
those notes + the rhythmic slant.
funny, i have not seen much if anything on this subject??????
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These are great sounds Jeff and others have posted. On the chordal side of things, one thing I like to try to disguise the parallel motion from VII to I and bII to I is to use contrary motion in the top voice.
all the best
Tim
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There you go, Jeff. I think they fit, more or less :-)
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See, I think those sound splendid. Nice post, rag.
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It's just the alt scale. Usually works :-)
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How about bVImaj7?
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Originally Posted by Durban
He never called them that, and tbh the problem is with people thinking they are bebop scales. They are not, they are basic raw materials for changes playing.
They are ‘squarely outlining the harmony scales.’ Listen to Louis in the 20s (Struttin with some Barbeque) or JP Sousa for that matter. Not that Louis is square, but you have on beats as well as upbeats and most scale running in jazz is quite square until you hit a push or something.
But most people don’t know how to outline harmony squarely in their scale runs because they are poorly educated :-) and think that scales have something to do with chord scales - so they need to learn that first. Also many are spectacularly ignorant about pre-Parker jazz.
But intervallic or chord/arp based soloing is always rhythmically freer.
To much of that scale running stuff and you sound to much on the beat. The bebop is in the subversion of the expectation.
So basically I agree. Not Barry’s fault tho....Last edited by christianm77; 07-18-2018 at 07:16 AM.
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That said I feel the utility of the Barry scale rules is less in outlining chords, but more in ending up on a chord tone on the beat regardless of what note you started on or whether you began on a beat or an upbeat. This is very useful for line construction.
The fact that the scales do outline the harmony clearly is a very useful aspect, but Barry doesn’t seem to be that bothered about drawing attention to it in workshops.
You can also adjust the rules and ensure you end up on chord tone on an anticipation, or outline any chord you like from the dominant/mixolydian scale. Such as the b7 maj7, for instance. For G7:
F G* E D C B A G F
(* is the added note - could also use D# or a ghost note etc)
Anyway, scales are more like connecting tissue in this contexts... Not structural...
In terms of the maj7 subs they are usually thought as chords on the 7th of the dominant scale.
But Bud Powell uses bIImaj7 on his recording of Cherokee.... I don’t know how Barry would think of that come to think of it. Obviously bIImaj7 rather than bII7 is necessitated if you have the tonic of the key in the melody or bass.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Bud was so naughty at times, playing a damn Tri-T he stole from the bad boys, some who wrote You stepped out a dream. Tonic to bIIM7. is it that lydian vibe again?
dear old Barry would borrow a note from somewhere without thinking and just play it.
Trivia:
Cherokee is a ballad about eating ice cream on Brighton pier, written by a young Sioux squaw.
Jimmy Raney's Motion also uses this dreadful bII device.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
John
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Here's the 7 I liked best when I experimented. I derived them from Barry Harris ideas. I actually play all these as major 6ths, but when I played them as maj 7th I liked some of them better.
VII, II, bIII, IV, #IV, bVI, VI,
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it's interesting how much over lap there is with your ideas which I assume were arrived at by different means
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