Demystifying Altered dominants with Lydian Augmented

[Reg]

Yea... I like and use B lyd. Aug. for a sub of G7 altered. There are many musically organized approaches for using... and the ears can be one of those.

The concept of being able to make choices, even musically organized choices ... and in this case, different possibilities of how to interpret which collection of notes from a chord symbols... or using subs of notated or interpretation of notated chord symbol etc...
Anyway... maybe an analogy could be... your playing a tune.... and rhythmically.... when to swing and when to not. Even if you don't really want to thing about it... there is also organization going on. There are results... some are better than others, and you can hear and feel the differences. Or maybe not. But you should.

I love using that Bmaj7 #5 #11 as a sub for....(ex. D-7 G7 Cmaj or Cmin), a sub for the D-7.... and I like using as a sub dominate function....meaning that. (from many previous or in the moment analysis), I'm calling the II V a Subdominant to Dominant chord movement Function....going to Tonic...

so Bmaj7#5 #11...G7alt... Cmaj9.

Or Bmaj7#5........Db9#11...C-9 Maybe use sub for the C-9... sub with Ebmaj9 which also has #11

The musical organization... from analysis the basic starting chord movement is Sub dominant (II-) to Dominant (V7) to Tonic (Imaj)...

and I use diatonic relative functional subs for each original chord, and try and have more musical organizational connections that also reinforce the original reference. In micro context, the short phrase... macro, the tune, have related musical organization etc...

Obviously the melodic lines and lead notes should also be organized with the context... and what makes this complicated verbal description easy... licks, chord patterns with melodic connections that I already have internalized... so instead of having to think all that verbal process.... I already have 50 different licks that cover that possible analysis... and 50 different versions of those licks for different contexts, styles etc...

There are also different results from different analysis of... in my example the II V I.

And because I have the fretboard already organized so that when I choose to use subs or other methods of creating relationships with the... in the example II V I.... I don't have to figure much out... it's realized mechanically.... and easy to hear mechanically.... so instead of connecting notes etc... I can connect chord patterns and melodic patterns over those chord patterns. I usually have targets.... organized notes on top of chords and fill from style and analysis....

Which ends up being.... just what I or others want to hear.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Probably should have had coffee first.

(Edit: didn't see/read reg's prior).

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

[Boston Joe]

Amaj7/F --> Bb is a perfectly legit cadence... Think Naima

T3

I think what I'm finding so liberating about the melodic triads approach is that it creates really simple ways of getting at these sounds.

[Reg]

So are triads the organization or are they a means of creating the perception. Not a trick question.... are the triad just what you choose to create the, as you said... the sound. Or are they the organization which organize the sound.

[Durban]

Yea... I like and use B lyd. Aug. for a sub of G7 altered.

so instead of connecting notes etc... I can connect chord patterns and melodic patterns over those chord patterns. I usually have targets.... organized notes on top of chords and fill from style and analysis..

Reg thanks for your thoughts,
which is exactly what my thread and first sentence was about B lyd Aug for a sub of G7 altered, the thread as you see, twisted sideways but what the hell.

re: your connecting chord patterns & melodic patterns is important, i do a similar thing (not as well as you)
i know when Reg is playing (i hope this is not offensive) say Example a Am7 chord 5 fret he is immediately thinking ** Am9/13 or AminMaj9 CM7#4#5 A#7#5#9 D13 etc and the rest,

when i mean thinking, you dont think you just know, as thats been taken care of long time back. It means you have this huge vocab to pull from at will.

Also knowing how ** all relates not to just those above chords because they are all from one MM parent anyway, but knowing how to play/move into next tonal region when it happens.


What several missed is by using B Lyd Aug as sub, you should be aware of how that relates, to chord before and after, and B Lyd Aug is Ab Minor The C chord coming next is probably best not screwed with too much because thats where you want resolve home target Blah blah,

I notice many doing the opposite haha trying to use Maj7#5 on Tonic so its max dissonance followed by why cant i get this sounding good. Chances are pretty slim.............

Nobody, looks good in brown lipstick...........................

[Boston Joe]

So are triads the organization or are they a means of creating the perception. Not a trick question.... are the triad just what you choose to create the, as you said... the sound. Or are they the organization which organize the sound.

Really more of a way of learning than anything else. So, if you've got an F7, T3 is a triad built on the third of that chord - so A Major. That gives you the 7, #5 and 13 of F7 - cuts right to the essence of the #5 sound. Very easy to hear and to see on the fretboard in relation to F. Once you have the sound in your ears and under your fingers, you can fill in the other notes around it (or not, depending on what you like), but the upshot is, you can get to it right away without a lot of mental math. Good for people like me who tend to overthink things. It gets me right back to the sound.

(See Jordan K's threads for details.)

[Reg]

Yea... triads or even dyads... are like almost all things... by themselves.... get old quick. Even when restructuring the note organization, if the triad is still the finished product... camouflaged, used with modal interchanged, any organization etc... it still gets old. (Disclaimer... Great players can make anything sound great). Anyway...when they, Triads or dyads... become part of your language etc... like using altered or lydian Augmented and maybe even few blue note harmonic references.... what the hell your already pulling from MM... why not take one more step.... who knows... you might hear something new or like.... ( not really new, all this shit has been used for years... talk to any composer or arranger from before the computer generation... ) Don't get me wrong, I love being able to turn out arrangements and parts in 30 min. ...

Anyway... getting back to actually playing.... if you don't have your technical skills on your instrument together.... buy the time you have one approach together, (memorized), you won't remember what you had together 6 month ago. Try this...

Play a cycle of Dom.7th chords...keep it simple, constant structure
Now same cycle using triads in 3rds
now play that same cycle with triad in 4ths
Now 4ths and 2nds
Now start using inversions....

Now start using harmonic organization... Diatonic, then using relative subs, then a pattern of original, diatonic and relative subs etc...

I would guess most are toast... I'm at best an average player.... maybe on a good night just above average.... (which doesn't mean much)....but I can play these almost as fast as I can say them. Not because I'm any good.... because I have my technical BS together. Its very mechanical... back when I was in my 20's or 30's.... I could burn though this kind of shit... Now I'm slooooooow. and can't remember etc...

What helps with the memory thing...after you have your tech. skills together... is to get the spatial thing together. FORM. How space is organized.... this really helps when your memory sucks.... (me). What was this thread about.... Lydian Augmented subs for Dominant function 7th chords.... altered 7th chords.... Yea Durban... your in my head, kind of scary but cool. You seem to get it, pretty simple...
really. I can talk lots of BS... but the applications are very simple, just lots of them.

Just need to add... I think Jordon is one of those great players... and I always dig his concepts. So don't take my comments as being about Jordon... Triad have been around ...

[Boston Joe]

Joe not in your face with this, i find melodic triads restricting limiting (but that can be fine sometimes as a discipline for specific exercise or practice)

Joe i hear you in its a way in, but just to say dont let that limit you.

Didn't I say it was a learning tool, and that you could fill in other things around it?

You limit yourself to triads (quadratonics, really) to get the sound in your ears and under your fingers. To get used to hearing extensions as points of stability.

Jordan and I talked a little about this in my last lesson. You don't have use it to the exclusion of everything else, except when you're practicing it. When I play with my ensemble, I play my "regular style" (more or less the way I was playing before I started working on melodic triads). But I've noticed that I'm going for more triad-based lines than I used to. Work on it enough, and it'll start to come out naturally.

And the triad-based lines that I'm going for are informed by specific extensions I'm looking to target. So there's less of what Reg would call "mush".