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That's what I'd think. I'm not saying 'this must be so' - more that I've noticed more 7s than b7s in resolutions to lines, and this may be a reflection of what I've transcribed.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
But then the concept of resolving into a tonic chord is kind of bebop centric which is predominant & dominant chords to death. Later players might be more likely to explore the tonic chord a bit more under the influence of modal jazz, maybe use a minor pentatonic interval thing or some such.
I'm aware that some people like to play a m7 as a minor I chord. I do it myself from time to time, although more frequently I use m9 or m11, I think. But I hear it as a substitute rather than the 'true minor' sound, how you feel about that depends on your taste and what type of music you listen to... The Im7 is a '60s tinge, and of course you get it all over soul music, but I can't think of many examples where the Im7 chord sound is really demanded by the melody of the tune, as opposed to, 'that's what it says in the chart', or 'that's what x plays on that recording'.
(OTOH, the same thing is true of maj7 on I. The place it crops up most is solos. Perhaps also b7?)
There's no basic reason why you couldn't use m6 or m6/9 chords for BB, although a m(maj7) would have to be used with care in bar 2. Again a Jordan style melodic triads analysis of this tune would throw up some different ways to think about the harmony. I'll do this today.
(In fact I hear characteristic quartal pentatonic influenced comping from Tyner on the original.)
In contrast the b7 is very common on ii chords. Which kind of emphasises my point. You wouldn't play m6 chord in this context. Well unless you were a Gypsy Jazz guitarist maybe lol.
But I'll play around with the b7 resolution today and see if I can pull something usable out of it. Jordan has for instance, an Eb triad on Cm to create the Cm7 sound, so it must be possible to tonicise it as a final note in a line.
Again if anyone has an example, I'd be interested. Grounds it a bit more and takes it away from 'angels on the head of a pin.' But I suspect this is not bebop II-V-I common practice. But I'm not trying to make any sort of definitive point here, just sharing what I've noticed in the music.Last edited by christianm77; 07-11-2018 at 05:35 AM.
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07-11-2018 05:19 AM
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I just thought of a good example from the standards rep - Invitation. Stuff Blue Bossa, I'll do my melodic triads work on that tune....
Definitely falls into the category of a line on a Cm chord, rather than a resolution into Cm chord in II-V-I, but an interesting one as it's pre-modal and that Bb is really prominent, not step wise or anything. The Db on Ebm too, obviously.Last edited by christianm77; 07-11-2018 at 09:16 AM.
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Also Footprints of course, but that's obviously post-modal....
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How can you possibly have missed that? Good lord. Originally Posted by christianm77
This is getting crazier and crazier. I don't see some person's private harmonic system as particularly helpful. I know you like BH but I think I'll just go with the normal thing and preserve my sanity :-)
(I also notice that, according to Soundcloud views, no one has listened to that soundclip I put in above; it's not been accessed. Not that I'm gagging for recognition but it does mean posts aren't being read properly. Or so it would seem).
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Well, people make mistakes sometimes. (The thing is it doesn't matter for the purposes of what I'm talking about, but if you want to pick holes, there you go.) But I think that you are not terribly interested in what I'm talking about, and TBH I haven't checked out your soundclip for similar reasons. Originally Posted by ragman1
Anyway, Jordan's melodic triads stuff, I know you've looked at some of that... It's all in there, really. I'm not giving voice to any of my own ideas just badly communicating other people's lol.
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But it HASN'T been, unless I missed something. The only time he mentioned it was in a different context from the E triad comments. (End of post 60). Originally Posted by ragman1
At the very MOST it's a slightly confusing juxtaposition of examples using the same root.
Chalk it up to a misunderstanding.
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Oh, naughty. I'm posting here and am sufficiently engaged to discover blips. All right, it should have been Am/M9. Well, that immediately gives the E maj triad although I'm still not sure what the great issue is. Obviously the 'top notes' spell that out, but one can say that about almost any extended/altered chord. Originally Posted by christianm77
There's still the point I made about the Am and E not being two separate chords, though. I think that was valid.
I'm not attacking BH, I'm just wary of people who announce they've somehow changed/improved the standard system that's been good for aeons. It doesn't make me a stuffy dinosaur either. Don't forget BH spends a lot of time running other players down (what did he say about Miles Davis?) or saying he taught tons of other well-known people everything they know. Not sure about all that. It's somewhat as though he's saying his is the only voice worth listening to sometimes.
But seeing it differently to you, if that's what I'm doing, isn't the same as not being interested. Two quite different things.
And I'm not having a go at you personally, Christian, just another viewpoint, that's all.
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Absolutely, I'd go with that. Not to worry Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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What's naughty about that? I don't really mind either way, and it would be hypocritical of me to say otherwise given I haven't checked out what you've offered on the subject. Originally Posted by ragman1
It's probably best to go the primary source in any case. The only point I really want to make is that there are different ways of hearing and conceptualising what we normally think of as extensions of the chord.
If anything the greatest PR achievement of the Berklee/CST system most people now use is convincing everyone that THAT's the old school system everyone has been using for aeons. The default system...
Maybe if 1 aeon goes back about 40 years...Last edited by christianm77; 07-11-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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Am9 or Em superimposed over Am?
Same notes, but does the ear hear this as two different things?
I'd say yes, but it entirely depends on context.
If your line is a descending Am9 arp, then the ear hears Am9.
If, in contrast, your line is a Dm arp followed by an Em arp and an Fmaj arp, the ear may hear an Em and bitonality.
To me, this is an argument for learning lines first and using theory as a crutch to help find the sounds later if they aren't automatic just by ear.
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To go back to the question in post 61...
Consider Gm the "tonic of the moment," Figure out what minor scale sounds best to you here, harmonize it, and you've got dozens of options, and a new V to play with...
Keep in mind, if you voice lead interestingly, you could play almost any random clusters of notes with something interesting on too that leads you back to the next Cm...
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Depending also, presumably, on the background harmony/chord. It does make a difference. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Not to push my little clip (honestly) but there the chord is Am with a A E G A bass line and lots of E maj triad and B (9) notes. How do you hear that? I don't hear E maj or Am/M7, I just hear a lot of an Am9 sound with passing lines.
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I listened to the clip. I liked the note choices. I heard non chord tones -- I didn't hear obvious superpositions. But, then again, my mind doesn't work that way. I can play a melody if I hear it -- usually with very few mistakes -- but I don't necessarily know the names of the notes, even when my fingers go right to them. I have to stop and think to name them. Originally Posted by ragman1
The more I think about such things, and the more I work with reading and lifting jazz lines, the more convinced I become that, in the past, I too often put the theory-cart before the ear-horse.
Of the best improvisers I know (whose thinking I'm aware of) some think theoretically, but most don't.
And, of the ones who think about theory, my impression is that they attained a very high level of mastery before they tried to expand it further with theory. I've been wrong before, but that's what I think.
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Exactly. You heard the 9 of Am because that was emphasised, and the 6 at the end for the same reason. You were meant to! But the E triad as fill-in just passes by. That's the point really. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Nearly all brain-heavy theory is largely irrelevant to actual playing. There's no such thing as playing 'intellectual guitar' and I've found most people whose emphasis is on that aren't very good players. And they know it.too often put the theory-cart before the ear-horse.
Who are the best players? Pass, Montgomery? Taylor? They were never theorists, especially Pass. I found this quote from him some time ago:Of the best improvisers I know (whose thinking I'm aware of) some think theoretically, but most don't.
And, of the ones who think about theory, my impression is that they attained a very high level of mastery before they tried to expand it further with theory. I've been wrong before, but that's what I think.
"One piece of advice I stress is keep things simple. Think in simple terms. Use your ears and develop your instincts. Don't rely on theory and other academic devices that fill your head with complicated information and numbers that have little to do with music. When you do learn things like that, forget them when you play, or else you'll sound stiff and might even lose your place."
http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-40/1888689-
Actually I can't think of any famous guitar players who make a thing about heavy theory. Not a single one.
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So that I'm clear, are you asking about the comping approach or the improvised line? Originally Posted by VKat
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Pearls? Unlikely. But, I played a few choruses by ear and then analyzed. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
descending Gm9 arp
notes from a Gm13, landing on the high E on beat 1 of bar 7 E D Bb F E
a lick based on approach each note of a Gm triad from a half step below
a lick built around a visualization of xx5776 (a cluster from Gmelmin)
an outside sound F# C# G Eb -- didn't work that great so I added a Bb on the end to come back inside
a bunch of notes from Gmelmin played rock style at the 14th fret.
Bb A F# Db C Bb.
Overall I used every note except Ab and B.
And, of course, none of this should make any sense whatsoever without hearing the rhythmic content and the part of the solo before and after.
Full disclosure. I love Jim and Wes, but I also love BB and Carlos.
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I think VKat when it comes down to it why ask us bunch of schmos what is the best option when you could check out some real music. Could be Joe Pass, or whoever you like listening to.
You don’t strike me as someone ignorant of theory - you know enough to have a framework - so I’m sure you can work it out.
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Yeah. I also don't understand the assumption that something is being WITHHELD or whatever. Ask people for their best ideas, they give them to you , and when they stop , you might assume that that's mostly what they actually have to offer? Originally Posted by christianm77
I also think that best practices, common approaches, favorites approaches etc. are not only easier to come by , but are the most practical in the first place. I would imagine that most people don't deal in terms of "every possible iteration".
What Joe & co. played on minor ... seems to be very solid starting point.
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I don't know where one learns these things about things like playing in minor, apart from playing tunes. there's a lot of value and working out all the iterations of extensions of chord types using all three scales associated with minor.
Beyond that, it's worth understanding some practical considerations. So, a hobbyist's take on some very VERY broad generalizations:
Natural minor is mostly the starting reference for tonic in minor. At least that's the traditional western music reference. The use of other minor scales , come mostly from dealing with the dominant chord. Of course, once you start doing that,it starts to become somewhat its own thing, and you're borrowingthe other chords and using similar melodic devices on other chord types beyond dominant.
Second, ambiguity for the tonic chord is a pretty prevalent thing. (Dorian is more of a modern reference for tonic now as well, so maybe it's more like four scales). But for the most part, the distinguishing tones which tell you definitively which minor scale you're referencing for tonic aren't used as much in the tonic chord, At least not as a resolution note or for a chord which people would commonly "strum" as a resolution. In terms of what people might actually play on tonic in a minor turnaround, you can talk about it being Dorian, natural minor, harmonic minor or melodic minor, But again, in my mind, much of the time that's somewhat more about the approaches leading UP TO the resolution than the resolution itself.
Second, the tonic chord from harmonic minor and melodic minor is very unresolved sounding. It's great for creating tension for some hip ending to a tune or if you simply desire that sound, but it's basically a very "dominant" -type tonic sound. It references the tritone pretty strongly. It generally gives a lot more resolution to the tension of your minor dominant chord to resolve to a more ambiguous minor sound or to Dorian /natural minor. Again, these are very very broad generalizations , not rules.
This is just my personal take as an amateur. Take with a grain of salt . Listen to what other people have played on recordings.
Sent from my SM-J727P using TapatalkLast edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-12-2018 at 10:58 AM.
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OK, so my last post asked about improv vs. comping but received no response so I guess this is about improvisation.
Well, the objective is not to "enhance the harmony". The phrase "improvised line" is implicit. The explicit version would be "improvised melodic line". The objective for the soloist is to improvise a melody (and one that "works with" the harmony, if we're talking straight-ahead playing).
Here are two melodic improv masters with a very strong rhythm section, to say the least. Check out what they do with the chord in question. Also listen to the bass line and piano voicings.
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One last thing: to the OP, I would ask : how are you with playing chord tones and arpeggios over basic minor progressions?
While playing arps over major progressions can sometimes be very vanilla, chord tones in minor often have enough grease to stand very well on their own. In fact, most subs and outside approaches for MAJOR are based on minor anyway. We tend to talk about playing over minor in ways that can overcomplicate things, but the basic chord tones give you a whole lot of it.
One of the unintended consequences for working out all of the extensions and arpeggios of harmonic minor for me was understanding that you can mostly get away with playing a natural five on 7#5 chords in minor. The #5 (which is mostly a actual b13) is implied by the other chord moves, especially from the iim7b5.
So, running chord tones over minor doesn't have to be THAT complicated. Learn to run basic 3- and 4-note arps over those progressions, and your ears are going to learn about 98% of the resolutions. You'll improve on transcription/listening etc, and then, you'll be better able to begin looking at things like extensions, melodic minor subs, symmetrical scale subs etc etc.
From what I can tell, most people have issues with running basic chord tones, especially in minor.
Sent from my SM-J727P using TapatalkLast edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-12-2018 at 11:55 AM.
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FYI, the words are "pearl" and "enhance." Ok, first, I would not record a backing track for use in a performance, so I can't provide guidance for that premise. I have however done a fair amount of guitar duo stuff. It isn't a matter of one player improvising and the other providing color or enhancement; they are both improvising, switching off between the comping and soloing roles. The big challenges with guitar duos are: Originally Posted by VKat
- Creating a sense of a full rhythm section when there's no bass or drums
- Making the two instruments sound distinct from each other
- Clean hand-offs between solos
- Maintaining some sense of variety in a narrow format.
One element in that is choosing your voicings carefully so as not to take up too much harmonic space, and basically stay away from the top 2 strings for the most part. But the big thing is to listen and react. E.g., if the other player is soloing in the upper register, comp in the lower register, and vice versa. Sometimes, contrast that with playing closer together in sort of "dual lead" mode. When comping, I like to mix things up a bit: walking bass lines with chord hits, ostinato/pedal points, Freddie Green style, single line harmonies, more fully voiced chords vs sparser voicings, dissonance/consonance, inside/outside. But it's not typically planned out it's about setting the table for the other guy, or following his ideas, each going with the flow, doing what the song demands in the moment. Jazz is not playing over backing tracks. It's ensemble improvisation.
There are no hard and fast rules for how to play a tune. It comes down to what effects two people are trying to produce and how the they like to interact. There are lots of things the comper can do -- e.g., stop-time chord hits; alternating between sparse and dense voicings; playing on every beat; playing on only a couple of beats or off-beats; walking bass; counter melodies/fills; Freddie Green Style; lay out and let the other guy play chord melody and come later, etc. etc.. The person playing the melody can hold the long notes, or not; can play fills, or not; etc., etc. Originally Posted by VKat
In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc.
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, or whether I'm actually answering it, but these are the sorts of though process I bring to playing in a duo setting.
John
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It's both, it's about interaction of a guitar duo (it could be a BigBand and a soloist but I simplified it to avoid additional complications). Something like what John said in his post: Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
John.A: "It isn't a matter of one player improvising and the other providing color or enhancement; they are both improvising, switching off between the comping and soloing roles."
I'm reading all your replies at the moment, thank you for answering - all forum members who cared tro reply.
To Chris: I'm a 'weekend warrior' and for me it's much easier to find answers from my experienced forum friends rather than spend much of my precious time figuring out things from records. If I know what to look for it's much easier for me to confirm that in a listening session. I have no one to check my conclusions in person so I can only rely on your help.
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John, I'm sorry for misspelling those words. I've corrected them in the original post. Honestly, you really put me down with your catch. Originally Posted by John A.
Thank you for your detailed answer!
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John! - I was lucky enough to spot one redundant "the" in one of you sentences, I even highlighted (or, my, what a word! - so many gh-gh-gh, I hope I spelled it right) it above. Whoa! I feel a tad better now. (not really as it doesn't add anything to my impro skills). Originally Posted by John A.
OK, jokes aside:
Thank you John - it's all very interesting but my question was really very simple and specific: I only wanted to know - is it more typical for the "comping man of the moment" to play what they call it a 'vanilla version' of Gm below that long 'Bb' or some kind of dissonant and complex harmony (I assume the latter of course). Originally Posted by John A.
You partially answered my question by saying: "It all depends and so on" but to me it says little since I needed a straightforward guidence to the process with a few good and common options.
You then added that it also depends if that long 'Bb' is played as a long note or not and so on. Please understand, I can imagine all that of course but it ruins my original idea. I see I have hard time explaining what I want to find out and maybe my 'duo example' does not sound realistic - and I admit it.
Oh, let me clarify what I mean. I of course can use a miriad of harmonic options for that Gm and call it a "good Jazz taste" but since I don't know what real good Jazz taste is I can mislead myself.
I already told Chris that my listening skills are limited. I can appreciate a big picture of what Joe Pass plays (his magic) but I never analyse it. I have no time for that.
I feel that for some of you my questions may sound silly. Please take me as I am and be gracious.
By the way, you gave me a good idea about turning back to Cm7:
"In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc."
While it's beyond the idea in my question it gives me more food for thought. However, If one decided to swith to G7 from Gm over the head how would it affect the Bb in the melody? (in any of the 2 bars?)Last edited by VKat; 07-12-2018 at 03:26 PM.
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