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  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    So that I'm clear, are you asking about the comping approach or the improvised line?
    Pearls? Unlikely. But, I played a few choruses by ear and then analyzed.

    descending Gm9 arp

    notes from a Gm13, landing on the high E on beat 1 of bar 7 E D Bb F E

    a lick based on approach each note of a Gm triad from a half step below

    a lick built around a visualization of xx5776 (a cluster from Gmelmin)

    an outside sound F# C# G Eb -- didn't work that great so I added a Bb on the end to come back inside

    a bunch of notes from Gmelmin played rock style at the 14th fret.

    Bb A F# Db C Bb.

    Overall I used every note except Ab and B.

    And, of course, none of this should make any sense whatsoever without hearing the rhythmic content and the part of the solo before and after.

    Full disclosure. I love Jim and Wes, but I also love BB and Carlos.

  2. #92
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    Minor ii-V resolution options

    I think VKat when it comes down to it why ask us bunch of schmos what is the best option when you could check out some real music. Could be Joe Pass, or whoever you like listening to.

    You don’t strike me as someone ignorant of theory - you know enough to have a framework - so I’m sure you can work it out.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think VKat when it comes down to it why ask us bunch of schmos what is the best option when you could check out some real music. Could be Joe Pass, or whoever you like listening to.

    You don’t strike me as someone ignorant of theory - you know enough to have a framework - so I’m sure you can work it out.
    Yeah. I also don't understand the assumption that something is being WITHHELD or whatever. Ask people for their best ideas, they give them to you , and when they stop , you might assume that that's mostly what they actually have to offer?

    I also think that best practices, common approaches, favorites approaches etc. are not only easier to come by , but are the most practical in the first place. I would imagine that most people don't deal in terms of "every possible iteration".

    What Joe & co. played on minor ... seems to be very solid starting point.

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  4. #94
    I don't know where one learns these things about things like playing in minor, apart from playing tunes. there's a lot of value and working out all the iterations of extensions of chord types using all three scales associated with minor.

    Beyond that, it's worth understanding some practical considerations. So, a hobbyist's take on some very VERY broad generalizations:

    Natural minor is mostly the starting reference for tonic in minor. At least that's the traditional western music reference. The use of other minor scales , come mostly from dealing with the dominant chord. Of course, once you start doing that,it starts to become somewhat its own thing, and you're borrowingthe other chords and using similar melodic devices on other chord types beyond dominant.

    Second, ambiguity for the tonic chord is a pretty prevalent thing. (Dorian is more of a modern reference for tonic now as well, so maybe it's more like four scales). But for the most part, the distinguishing tones which tell you definitively which minor scale you're referencing for tonic aren't used as much in the tonic chord, At least not as a resolution note or for a chord which people would commonly "strum" as a resolution. In terms of what people might actually play on tonic in a minor turnaround, you can talk about it being Dorian, natural minor, harmonic minor or melodic minor, But again, in my mind, much of the time that's somewhat more about the approaches leading UP TO the resolution than the resolution itself.

    Second, the tonic chord from harmonic minor and melodic minor is very unresolved sounding. It's great for creating tension for some hip ending to a tune or if you simply desire that sound, but it's basically a very "dominant" -type tonic sound. It references the tritone pretty strongly. It generally gives a lot more resolution to the tension of your minor dominant chord to resolve to a more ambiguous minor sound or to Dorian /natural minor. Again, these are very very broad generalizations , not rules.

    This is just my personal take as an amateur. Take with a grain of salt . Listen to what other people have played on recordings.

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    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-12-2018 at 10:58 AM.

  5. #95
    OK, so my last post asked about improv vs. comping but received no response so I guess this is about improvisation.

    Well, the objective is not to "enhance the harmony". The phrase "improvised line" is implicit. The explicit version would be "improvised melodic line". The objective for the soloist is to improvise a melody (and one that "works with" the harmony, if we're talking straight-ahead playing).


    Here are two melodic improv masters with a very strong rhythm section, to say the least. Check out what they do with the chord in question. Also listen to the bass line and piano voicings.


  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    ...

    So that was the reason I asked my question: "...why does it have to be the melodic minor as a basic go to example for min ii-V resolution?" - which you can also read as:
    "...why does it have to be min-Maj7 as a basic go to example for min ii-V resolution?"
    Because minor is not mode of major.

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  7. #97
    One last thing: to the OP, I would ask : how are you with playing chord tones and arpeggios over basic minor progressions?

    While playing arps over major progressions can sometimes be very vanilla, chord tones in minor often have enough grease to stand very well on their own. In fact, most subs and outside approaches for MAJOR are based on minor anyway. We tend to talk about playing over minor in ways that can overcomplicate things, but the basic chord tones give you a whole lot of it.

    One of the unintended consequences for working out all of the extensions and arpeggios of harmonic minor for me was understanding that you can mostly get away with playing a natural five on 7#5 chords in minor. The #5 (which is mostly a actual b13) is implied by the other chord moves, especially from the iim7b5.

    So, running chord tones over minor doesn't have to be THAT complicated. Learn to run basic 3- and 4-note arps over those progressions, and your ears are going to learn about 98% of the resolutions. You'll improve on transcription/listening etc, and then, you'll be better able to begin looking at things like extensions, melodic minor subs, symmetrical scale subs etc etc.

    From what I can tell, most people have issues with running basic chord tones, especially in minor.

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    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-12-2018 at 11:55 AM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    Ted Greene used to call that "Chord Chemistry".
    I think he knew what he was talking about.

    I want you to help me with a specific example. Let's take 'Autumn Leaves' - what could be simpler?

    In bars 5 to 8 (counting from the first complete bar) we have | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm | Gm |. The long melody note held over bar 7 is a plain and boring 'Bb', the 3rd od Gm.

    Without sending me elsewhere please give me your list of 'string of perls' options to "enhence" the harmonic content of bar 7 with the plain old Gm.

    Please keep in mind the following: assume you are making a backing track to play over and you want to clearly and explicitly define a "colorful" harmony.

    However, I may be totally wrong regarding how two seasoned Jazz guitarists would gig together. Please enlighten me on the subject. The one who plays the rhythm part at the moment - would he really play a "colorful" chord in the situation I've just descrtibed above?
    Since the melody note is a fundamental one there are various options to "enhence" the harmony.
    FYI, the words are "pearl" and "enhance." Ok, first, I would not record a backing track for use in a performance, so I can't provide guidance for that premise. I have however done a fair amount of guitar duo stuff. It isn't a matter of one player improvising and the other providing color or enhancement; they are both improvising, switching off between the comping and soloing roles. The big challenges with guitar duos are:

    - Creating a sense of a full rhythm section when there's no bass or drums
    - Making the two instruments sound distinct from each other
    - Clean hand-offs between solos
    - Maintaining some sense of variety in a narrow format.

    One element in that is choosing your voicings carefully so as not to take up too much harmonic space, and basically stay away from the top 2 strings for the most part. But the big thing is to listen and react. E.g., if the other player is soloing in the upper register, comp in the lower register, and vice versa. Sometimes, contrast that with playing closer together in sort of "dual lead" mode. When comping, I like to mix things up a bit: walking bass lines with chord hits, ostinato/pedal points, Freddie Green style, single line harmonies, more fully voiced chords vs sparser voicings, dissonance/consonance, inside/outside. But it's not typically planned out it's about setting the table for the other guy, or following his ideas, each going with the flow, doing what the song demands in the moment. Jazz is not playing over backing tracks. It's ensemble improvisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    I honestly don't know how two professional Jazz guitarists would interact in that situation. I can imagine a couple scenarios. Which of the 2 is most realistic? Here it goes:

    - The head is played by a "solo man" with a long held Bb over Gm:
    1. The "rhythm man" of the moment plays some colorful GmX harmony below to enhence the overall sound.
    I see no other valid "Jazz" option for this situation.

    - The impro is played by the "solo man" and there are no restrictions in terms of the melodic content:
    1. The "rhythm man" of the moment plays simple Gm triad in bar 7 and lets the "solo man" of the moment colorize the harmony with his line.
    2. The "rhythm man" of the moment provides explicit sophisticated harmonic content on demand (or as a surprise?) to the "solo man" and the soloist's line needs not to contradict the underlying harmony.
    There are no hard and fast rules for how to play a tune. It comes down to what effects two people are trying to produce and how the they like to interact. There are lots of things the comper can do -- e.g., stop-time chord hits; alternating between sparse and dense voicings; playing on every beat; playing on only a couple of beats or off-beats; walking bass; counter melodies/fills; Freddie Green Style; lay out and let the other guy play chord melody and come later, etc. etc.. The person playing the melody can hold the long notes, or not; can play fills, or not; etc., etc.

    In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc.

    I'm not sure I fully understand your question, or whether I'm actually answering it, but these are the sorts of though process I bring to playing in a duo setting.

    John

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    So that I'm clear, are you asking about the comping approach or the improvised line?
    It's both, it's about interaction of a guitar duo (it could be a BigBand and a soloist but I simplified it to avoid additional complications). Something like what John said in his post:

    John.A: "It isn't a matter of one player improvising and the other providing color or enhancement; they are both improvising, switching off between the comping and soloing roles."

    I'm reading all your replies at the moment, thank you for answering - all forum members who cared tro reply.

    To Chris: I'm a 'weekend warrior' and for me it's much easier to find answers from my experienced forum friends rather than spend much of my precious time figuring out things from records. If I know what to look for it's much easier for me to confirm that in a listening session. I have no one to check my conclusions in person so I can only rely on your help.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    FYI, the words are "pearl" and "enhance.
    ...
    John
    John, I'm sorry for misspelling those words. I've corrected them in the original post. Honestly, you really put me down with your catch.
    Thank you for your detailed answer!

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    I'm a 'weekend warrior' and for me it's much easier to find answers from my experienced forum friends rather than spend much of my precious time figuring out things from records. If I know what to look for it's much easier for me to confirm that in a listening session. I have no one to check my conclusions in person so I can only rely on your help.
    this makes no sense. how do you expect to learn a style of music without listening? imagine someone trying to learn the blues that way. why is this even thinkable, let alone common, with jazz music?

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    FYI, the words are "pearl" and "enhance."
    ...
    ... It comes down to what effects two people are trying to produce and how the they like to interact...
    John
    John! - I was lucky enough to spot one redundant "the" in one of you sentences, I even highlighted (or, my, what a word! - so many gh-gh-gh, I hope I spelled it right) it above. Whoa! I feel a tad better now. (not really as it doesn't add anything to my impro skills).

    OK, jokes aside:

    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    ...
    I'm not sure I fully understand your question, or whether I'm actually answering it...
    John
    Thank you John - it's all very interesting but my question was really very simple and specific: I only wanted to know - is it more typical for the "comping man of the moment" to play what they call it a 'vanilla version' of Gm below that long 'Bb' or some kind of dissonant and complex harmony (I assume the latter of course).
    You partially answered my question by saying: "It all depends and so on" but to me it says little since I needed a straightforward guidence to the process with a few good and common options.
    You then added that it also depends if that long 'Bb' is played as a long note or not and so on. Please understand, I can imagine all that of course but it ruins my original idea. I see I have hard time explaining what I want to find out and maybe my 'duo example' does not sound realistic - and I admit it.

    Oh, let me clarify what I mean. I of course can use a miriad of harmonic options for that Gm and call it a "good Jazz taste" but since I don't know what real good Jazz taste is I can mislead myself.
    I already told Chris that my listening skills are limited. I can appreciate a big picture of what Joe Pass plays (his magic) but I never analyse it. I have no time for that.

    I feel that for some of you my questions may sound silly. Please take me as I am and be gracious.

    By the way, you gave me a good idea about turning back to Cm7:
    "In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc."

    While it's beyond the idea in my question it gives me more food for thought. However, If one decided to swith to G7 from Gm over the head how would it affect the Bb in the melody? (in any of the 2 bars?)
    Last edited by VKat; 07-12-2018 at 03:26 PM.

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    this makes no sense. how do you expect to learn a style of music without listening? imagine someone trying to learn the blues that way. why is this even thinkable, let alone common, with jazz music?
    You need to add capital letters in the beginning of your sentences! (Sorry, it's a common trend on this forum )

    I didn't tell you I wasn't listening to music. I just told you (and anyone else) that my listening skills are not good enough to go into specific details of the recorded music.
    Now you will say: Go improve your listening skills, spend as many years as you need for that and until you can clearly hear a Gm 6/b9@#$%^&* chord don't come back.

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    John! - I was lucky enough to spot one redundant "the" in one of you sentences, I even highlighted (or, my, what a word! - so many gh-gh-gh, I hope I spelled it right) it above. Whoa! I feel a tad better now. (not really as it doesn't add anything to my impro skills).

    OK, jokes aside:



    Thank you John - it's all very interesting but my question was really very simple and specific: I only wanted to know - is it more typical for the "comping man of the moment" to play what they call it a 'vanilla version' of Gm below that long 'Bb' or some kind of dissonant and complex harmony (I assume the latter of course).
    You partially answered my question by saying: "It all depends and so on" but to me it says little since I needed a straightforward guidence to the process with a few good and common options.
    You then added that it also depends if that long 'Bb' is played as a long note or not and so on. Please understand, I can imagine all that of course but it ruins my original idea. I see I have hard time explaining what I want to find out and maybe my 'duo example' does not sound realistic - and I admit it.

    Oh, let me clarify what I mean. I of course can use a miriad of harmonic options for that Gm and call it a "good Jazz taste" but since I don't know what real good Jazz taste is I can mislead myself.
    I already told Chris that my listening skills are limited. I can appreciate a big picture of what Joe Pass plays (his magic) but I never analyse it. I have no time for that.

    I feel that for some of you my questions may sound silly. Please take me as I am and be gracious.

    By the way, you gave a good idea about turning back to Cm7:
    "In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc."

    While it's beyond the idea in my question it gives me more food for thought. However, If one decided to swith to G7 from Gm over the head how would it affect the Bb in the melody? (in any of the 2 bars?)
    It wouldnt, really. Just becomes a #9 on the G7, a totally acceptable sound.
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  15. #105
    I have been down the route you seem to be plotting. I regret it.

    Jazz is about imagining a melody that will work over the harmony of a song, and then playing it on the fly.

    It is about the connection between your ears and your fingers.

    There is enough theory available that you can think (overthink?) your way through a tune, but, IMO, a small amount of time spent on developing one's ear is more effective than a large amount of theory.

    If you were to transcribe you would find examples of everything -- players using one or another of the minor scales, for example. But, if you continue transcribing, you will also find all kinds of mixing and matching to the point where it's all arguable. There are four notes to hear b6 b7 6 7. None of the theory will replace working with those notes so that you can hear them in your mind.

  16. #106
    I perhaps need to take Mr.B's advice literally.
    After learning the classical way of V-I resolutions it's SO difficult to overcome my habits. I like how the great soloists like Joe Pass or Wes or you name it use tensions but once I try to do it myself I feel I play wrong notes. Maybe I'm too addicted to "clean" classical harmony and cannot break that wall.

    That's why I have to ask you about specific examples that are considered a 'good taste'. Can you see my point now?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    To go back to the question in post 61...

    Consider Gm the "tonic of the moment," Figure out what minor scale sounds best to you here, harmonize it, and you've got dozens of options, and a new V to play with...

    Keep in mind, if you voice lead interestingly, you could play almost any random clusters of notes with something interesting on too that leads you back to the next Cm...

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    It wouldnt, really. Just becomes a #9 on the G7, a totally acceptable sound.
    I feel silly! Yes, how could I overlook that? Of course from a point of view of G7 Alt which it is in minor it's #9.
    Thank you Mr'B for a quick reply.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post

    Thank you John - it's all very interesting but my question was really very simple and specific: I only wanted to know - is it more typical for the "comping man of the moment" to play what they call it a 'vanilla version' of Gm below that long 'Bb' or some kind of dissonant and complex harmony (I assume the latter of course).
    You partially answered my question by saying: "It all depends and so on" but to me it says little since I needed a straightforward guidence to the process with a few good and common options.
    You then added that it also depends if that long 'Bb' is played as a long note or not and so on. Please understand, I can imagine all that of course but it ruins my original idea. I see I have hard time explaining
    what I want to find out and maybe my 'duo example' does not sound realistic - and I admit it.
    "It all depends" is a direct and complete answer. I actually gave you quite a bit of specific guidance terms of how I approach comping behind another guitar player. As to your question about who plays colors vs who plays vanilla, the straightforward answer is that it depends. My main duo partner, we both do a bit of both and deploy the various techniques and devices I mentioned. Different people do things differently, at differently times. That's the reality of an improvised art from that doesn't have completely standardized rules and conventions. Very generally and broadly, when you comp you try not fill every harmonic space with a note and leave opening for the soloist, which generally means you play a lot of shell voicings. But if you _only_ play shell voicings and never play a 9, 11, or 13 or altered tone, it gets boring.


    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    Oh, let me clarify what I mean. I of course can use a miriad of harmonic options for that Gm and call it a "good Jazz taste" but since I don't know what real good Jazz taste is I can mislead myself.
    I already told Chris that my listening skills are limited. I can appreciate a big picture of what Joe Pass plays (his magic) but I never analyse it. I have no time for that.
    There is no single definition of good taste. All you can do is practice, play, listen, and develop your own sense of good taste, that (hopefully) is shared by at least some others. You probably will not develop good taste by asking strangers what constitutes good taste. You probably will if you work/play/study with others and take the time to analyze music you would like to emulate.


    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    I feel that for some of you my questions may sound silly. Please take me as I am and be gracious.
    I don't know about silly, but they seem uninformed by real experience. You're getting good answers from informed and experienced players. Rejecting that and insisting that we tell you precisely what you're asking is unproductive. Jazz is an ensemble improvisational art form that is learned primarily by DOING with other people, not by talking and intellectualizing with strangers on the internet.


    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    By the way, you gave a good idea about turning back to Cm7:
    "In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc."

    While it's beyond the idea in my question it gives me more food for thought. However, If one decided to swith to G7 from Gm over the head how would it affect the Bb in the melody? (in any of the 2 bars?)
    If you voice the chord so that the B natural is an octave below the Bb in the melody (last note of bar 8) almost any flavor of G7 will sound fine. In effect the two players form a G7#9 chord (in passing). Yes, there would be dissonance/tension, but in passing on the way to resolution, that sounds good. Play it. That's the only way to find out if you like it.

    John

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    John, I'm sorry for misspelling those words. I've corrected them in the original post. Honestly, you really put me down with your catch.
    Thank you for your detailed answer!
    The intent was not to put you down. The intent was to offer a correction to someone who seems not to be a native English speaker.

    John

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    OK, so my last post asked about improv vs. comping but received no response so I guess this is about improvisation.
    ...
    Here are two melodic improv masters with a very strong rhythm section, to say the least. Check out what they do with the chord in question. Also listen to the bass line and piano voicings.
    Sorry but that's beyond my listening skills to pick out individual parts and analyze them, especially if it concerns
    comping or bass lines. I can appreciate the whole thing, the "integral feel of it" but I cannot clearly hear harmonic context unless it's played on its own as a backing track and is slow enough for me.

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    ...You're getting good answers from informed and experienced players. Rejecting that and insisting that we tell you precisely what you're asking is unproductive. Jazz is an ensemble improvisational art form that is learned primarily by DOING with other people, not by talking and intellectualizing with strangers on the internet.
    ...
    John
    John, you are perfectly right and I see what you are getting at. That's my problem: I'm a lone wolf and I cannot change myself. I understand that with such an approach I can at best become only a shadow of a solo Jazz musician but if I can achieve just that that would be my ultimate goal.

  22. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    John, you are perfectly right and I see what you are getting at. That's my problem: I'm a lone wolf and I cannot change myself. I understand that with such an approach I can at best become only a shadow of a solo Jazz musician but if I can achieve just that that would be my ultimate goal.
    then none of this is even relevant for you. learn some nice arrangements instead.post them here to improve.

  23. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    It's both, it's about interaction of a guitar duo (it could be a BigBand and a soloist but I simplified it to avoid additional complications). Something like what John said in his post:

    John.A: "It isn't a matter of one player improvising and the other providing color or enhancement; they are both improvising, switching off between the comping and soloing roles."

    I'm reading all your replies at the moment, thank you for answering - all forum members who cared tro reply.

    To Chris: I'm a 'weekend warrior' and for me it's much easier to find answers from my experienced forum friends rather than spend much of my precious time figuring out things from records. If I know what to look for it's much easier for me to confirm that in a listening session. I have no one to check my conclusions in person so I can only rely on your help.
    Post your conclusions here and we can check them for you.

    Start with chord tones, and minor scales.

  24. #114
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    Also I think there is a misconception here based around the idea that better players have more ‘advanced’ note choice.

    Until you listen to your favourite players and what they do, for me to say that you’ve already covered the basic options probably seems like a fairy story.

    But to me it’s like trying to teach French by describing the grammar.

  25. #115
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    Minor ii-V resolution options

    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    Sorry but that's beyond my listening skills to pick out individual parts and analyze them, especially if it concerns
    comping or bass lines. I can appreciate the whole thing, the "integral feel of it" but I cannot clearly hear harmonic context unless it's played on its own as a backing track and is slow enough for me.
    Not a growth mindset.

    In that case, forget it and take up something you are already good at.

    Or do you think we all started blessed with the ability to work things out by ear?

    You have to enjoy the process. Or do you imagine I’m satisfied with my playing?

    Here’s a hint - start with song melodies not solos. You can hold a tune a bit?

    And don’t try the guitar till you really know the tune.

    Next look up the chords in a book, compare tune to chords.

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    then none of this is even relevant for you. learn some nice arrangements instead.post them here to improve.
    That's a good suggestion. I have quite a few (perhaps a dozen!) "chord-melody" books (really good ones) in which I could probably find even direct answers to my question on what color options I could apply to minor chords. How could I forget about all those good books?

    Thank you for setting me straight on that!

    P.S. Nevertheless I'm always thirsty for knowing how and why things work. Hence I have this 'know before you blow' approach. It's in my nature.

  27. #117
    Often, it isn't about your choice of notes. If you transcribe enough you will find that great players can and do make any note sound good. But, when a lesser mortal plays the same notes it can sound like clams.

    The issue is the quality of the overall line.

    So, when you use the same scale as a guitarist you love, if your music doesn't sound good, it's the line, not the scale.

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Often, it isn't about your choice of notes. If you transcribe enough you will find that great players can and do make any note sound good. But, when a lesser mortal plays the same notes it can sound like clams.
    Ah, do they though? Sounds like Internet wisdom to me.

    I agree, when you're playing up tempo, it's remarkable what you can land on and sound good...if you're outlining changes pretty hard.

    But I was transcribing some CC today...you know what he hung on a TON? Roots and thirds.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  29. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Ah, do they though? Sounds like Internet wisdom to me.

    I agree, when you're playing up tempo, it's remarkable what you can land on and sound good...if you're outlining changes pretty hard.

    But I was transcribing some CC today...you know what he hung on a TON? Roots and thirds.
    I still love CC, but he was not the most harmonically adventurous player in the history of jazz.

    And yes, great players can make any note sound good. There was a thread on here not long ago about Wes playing F# over G7. Of course, he didn't lean on it, but he played it as more than a quick passing tone. A book I'm working through right now, Melodic Shapes for the Modern Improviser has lots of examples -- e.g. D# over Dm9, G# against Dm7 (first beat in the measure) etc etc etc.

  30. #120
    So Wes played an F# as a passing note over G7 and that debunks my post?

    Seriously, jazz is not magic. What notes do the examples in your book hang on?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

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