The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hey everyone... we're studying the minMaj9 tonality this month in our melodic triads study group.

    For an EminMaj9, the melodic triad is B major, and the triad we would use to create triad pairs would be C# diminished. I posted a short video showing the tension/resolution element of melodic triads with this, plus some basic and more advanced applications for how I'd practice these two triads over this tonality.

    Got any triad pair techniques that aren't mentioned or displayed in the video? I'm always looking for new things to work on. I have a few other things I do that I'm just not comfortable enough with yet using these two triads so I didn't put them in. But this is a good chunk of my own triad pair work.
    j


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  3. #2

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    Ah, Mr Bond, I have been expecting you.

  4. #3

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    Ah ok so this is different from the Eminmaj9 vid of yours I’d already watched. So, B and C#dim triads - really tonicises the B sound.

    B F D#
    C# G E

    Interesting stuff. Like playing a ii v I into B on Em almost.

    So yeah, the C#dim is obviously related to Em6 so that would normally be the tonicised sound in old school jazz, but here you are demonstrating how these can function as tension notes into the B sound on the Em?

  5. #4

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    As far as the B/Em sound goes this is an obvious bebop cliche. The Barry Harris 3 ending in minor has this triad, for instance.

    In terms of melodic minor harmony the V triad is always a good shout. (This may in fact be the origin of MM US triad use - Bh ending 3 + important minor and tritone. Also m7b5 is inverted minor 6 in the 40s and 50s.)

    So on A7#11 or Eb7alt this B triad is a good shout. Or C#m7b5. (I have been teaching this from before I started looking into melodic triads)

    Oh hang on, where have I seen those choices before? Stop smiling and nodding so knowingly, klemons!

    Glad to see it’s starting to join up.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ah ok so this is different from the Eminmaj9 vid of yours I’d already watched. So, B and C#dim triads - really tonicises the B sound.

    B F D#
    C# G E

    Interesting stuff. Like playing a ii v I into B on Em almost.

    So yeah, the C#dim is obviously related to Em6 so that would normally be the tonicised sound in old school jazz, but here you are demonstrating how these can function as tension notes into the B sound on the Em?
    Yeah, this is what I love about the melodic triad approach. I grew up (and I think others are probably similar) hearing about tension and resolution, and when I got involved in jazz, I sort of relied on the harmonic and rhythmic tension. The V chord gives us tension, the I chord resolves it. And that's definitely true.

    But it's also possible to explore melodic tension and resolution. And it can function the same as harmonic... but not necessarily.

    As you pointed out, the C# diminished triad has the root, minor 3rd, and natural 6 of this E minor tonic chord. So we'd assume based on theory and our intellect that it should be totally in. And it can be used that way. But in this tonal situation, it can actually be heard and used as a tension. A diminished or 7b9 sound resolving to a major tonic... but all over Emin.

    Pretty trippy.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So on A7#11 or Eb7alt this B triad is a good shout. Or C#m7b5. (I have been teaching this from before I started looking into melodic triads)

    Oh hang on, where have I seen those choices before? Stop smiling and nodding so knowingly, klemons!

    Glad to see it’s starting to join up.


    Yes to all Christian. Glad it's starting to join up too.

    Except that my goal with the melodic triads approach isn't simply to find scales or arpeggios that can be used commonly across the board (though that does happen and there's NOTHING wrong with that being a priority for someone). My personal priority is about really understanding and respecting and having a severe empathy and sensitivity for melody and it's relationship with the harmony.

    So the order of the tension notes as they come into the picture will be different, as the tension 2 will carry the most importance when being added to the B triad for the A13(#11,9) chord... the tension b6 is most important for the Eb7(#9,#5)... and the tension 4 will be the most important for the C#-7b5.... as these notes carry the most harmonic for each chord. But they all work and build up to the same type of possibilities.

    But think about that C#-7b5 for a second with this triad pair. That means, even weirder than the EminMaj9 tonality... the C# diminished triad is going to behave as a tension chord over a C#-7b5. Um... is anyone else bothered by that??
    O_o

    I need to go drink some coffee....

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons


    Yes to all Christian. Glad it's starting to join up too.

    Except that my goal with the melodic triads approach isn't simply to find scales or arpeggios that can be used commonly across the board (though that does happen and there's NOTHING wrong with that being a priority for someone). My personal priority is about really understanding and respecting and having a severe empathy and sensitivity for melody and it's relationship with the harmony.

    So the order of the tension notes as they come into the picture will be different, as the tension 2 will carry the most importance when being added to the B triad for the A13(#11,9) chord... the tension b6 is most important for the Eb7(#9,#5)... and the tension 4 will be the most important for the C#-7b5.... as these notes carry the most harmonic for each chord. But they all work and build up to the same type of possibilities.

    But think about that C#-7b5 for a second with this triad pair. That means, even weirder than the EminMaj9 tonality... the C# diminished triad is going to behave as a tension chord over a C#-7b5. Um... is anyone else bothered by that??
    O_o

    I need to go drink some coffee....
    I don’t think it bothered Bill Evans haha....

  9. #8

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    So you prefer B/4 on C#m7b5 over B/b6?

    I mean it all depends whether or not you think Em6 is a different chord to C#m7b5. I think this may be an ideological divide lol

  10. #9

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    I like it.... maybe I just like mm references... but cool. I've always liked you triad approaches... almost like modal characteristic note organization expanded. ( my problem... I half to force myself to keep the triads as individual elements). I'll give more tries... thanks.
    Christian I do or can hear E-6 and C#-7b5 as simply a voicing thing.... but generally there is more going on. Context... in the fore, middle, back or even implied ground. Again probable need to train my ears to focus...

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don’t think it bothered Bill Evans haha....
    thanks for bringing some perspective back into this conversation! hahaha

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So you prefer B/4 on C#m7b5 over B/b6?

    I mean it all depends whether or not you think Em6 is a different chord to C#m7b5. I think this may be an ideological divide lol
    I definitely recognize their relationship and may intermingle them... but I also value each for it's own personal thing. I guess they're sort of like fraternal twins to me. Obviously made of the same stuff, but there is still something unique about each.

    So yes, for the quadratonics, the primary tension note (when possible) is the 3rd as it's the most harmonically defining note we can grab. Even traditional theory and academic pedagogy places the 3rd as more important than the 5th and even says the 5th can be left out altogether. Though I will say that there's something absurdly defining about the 5th when it comes to diminished an augmented chords. So I totally recognize the other side of the argument here. But still, the 3rd is just an across the board most important sound to internalize into my ear for me. The only time I don't go straight for it is in rare examples. Sometimes it might cause a problem of some sort... there are exceptions. And sometimes the 3rd is already in the melodic triad... so then we have to accept our heartbreak, eat some ice cream, and move on with our lives.
    :*(

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I like it.... maybe I just like mm references... but cool. I've always liked you triad approaches... almost like modal characteristic note organization expanded. ( my problem... I half to force myself to keep the triads as individual elements). I'll give more tries... thanks.
    Christian I do or can hear E-6 and C#-7b5 as simply a voicing thing.... but generally there is more going on. Context... in the fore, middle, back or even implied ground. Again probable need to train my ears to focus...
    Hey Reg! Great to cross paths again, feels like it's been forever. I haven't been on here much lately. Always appreciate the encouragement from you. You've got the thing, man! So I know if you're not letting me know how absurd something I'm doing is, it must be somewhat decent hahaha

    And yeah... I'm kind of more in the middle on this inversion game. I try not to take sides in dogmatic issues in music. I just like pretty sounds and get a bit OCD for myself about organizing all of this stuff in my own mind and ears so that I can try and sift through it all to get something pretty to come out of the tail pipe.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Eminmaj9

    B F D#
    C# G E
    Dear Sheriff J.W. Pepper

    is the B triad a Bayou vers? on the island we use F#

    Scaramanga

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    Dear Sheriff J.W. Pepper

    is the B triad a Bayou vers? on the island we use F#

    Scaramanga
    What is this... F#... you speak of???
    O_o

  16. #15

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    It’s a bit like F, but sharp!

  17. #16

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    (Yuss, you are correct.)