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I'm still developing as a jazz player. I'd like to direct this question to the experienced players especially. It seems to me that there is a range of players in terms of freedom in their approach to soloing.
1- Composed solos: This group is the reason the title of the post doesn't say "improvisation". Some seem to prefer fully working out the solos before hand. They may still allow themselves some freedom and alter parts of the solos on the fly depending on how inspired they feel that day, but still the composed solo provides a safe solid structure to follow and go back to as needed.
2- Lick libraries: This is a tricky one as there seems to be a stigma attached to the term "lick". Some people immediately go "Oh no, no. I am not a lick player!" as soon as you ask them about their licks. But they calm down when you say "Oh sorry, my bad, I meant your melodic phrases". (like Emily Remler called them
). In this group people have licks for various harmonic situations like I going to VI7 or I7 going to IV7 or just the chords themselves. Freedom comes from assembling and connecting them. They may even play the licks differently in the moment.
3- Chord tone players: This is the most traditional form of jazz soloing dates back to the beginnings. These players have absolute control over the chord tones of the tunes they know. So they can just make up lines based on chord tones/guide tones without getting lost in the form. Connecting them with various chromatic embellishments.
4- Chord scale players: These players are like chord tone players but instead they think in terms of scales that match chords or chord progressions.
5- Strict ear players: It seems to me that this group contains the two extreme group of players. Beginning improvisers and the most experienced ones. This group just plays lines that arise in the moment without any conscious reference to arpeggios, chord scales, positions on the fretboard etc. Although I practice using the approaches 1 to 4, when I'm called to improvise I fall into to this group by obligation
There are probably other approaches. Some may fall into one of the above with some stretch. For example some may just use upper structure triads as a vague reference to guide their ears. They may be considered chord tone players. Some players can be all of the above depending on the day or how well they know a tune.
How would you describe your approach to improvisation? Which of these categories do you fall into?Last edited by Tal_175; 06-11-2018 at 03:17 PM.
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06-11-2018 12:25 PM
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awesome post! can’t wait to see he responses
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Boy, a bit of all, I suppose, except #1. The thought of playing a composed solo is terrifying.
I see it as very fluid...the categories all blend after a while. I think the ultimate category would be "on the spot composition," and you can do that because you've practiced all the others enough.
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although, i think improvising by ear based on the song’s melody came before chord tone soloing
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I came up with this idea, some years ago...I think there's three stages of being an improvisor...
1. You tell your fingers where to go...you practice scales, arpeggios, licks...you string things together, but it's "paint by number," in a sense...you chase changes, you learn, you grow...
until 2. Your fingers tell you where to go. You're on "auto-pilot," and your hands may get ahead of your brain from time to time, you may play almost "mindlessly," but you're making the changes, playing the tune. All the things you practiced in stage one bubble up to the surface without thinking.
And then 3. You tell your fingers where to go (again)--but this time, it's different...you can hear bars ahead...whole solos ahead. You can adjust, in real time, and listen. It's a step beyond auto-pilot, because it can be controlled.
All of this is fluid. There's no certificate that comes in the mail that says "You are officially a Stage 3 improvisor." We can all be in any given stage with a tune at any given moment.
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That's true. They had both head melody embellishment and chord tone embellishment. Though the tradition of strict head based solos chorus after chorus does not seem to influence the modern players as much as the chord tone approach I think.
Originally Posted by joe2758
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(sighs) I was just giving up all hope of getting my stage 2 certificate. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think this three stages idea is quite to the point; it incorporates the various technique and approach details ( the 1-5 in the OP) but classes their integration at the functioning level. The operative distinction among the three stages is, "What's in functioning control?"
Looks to me like:
Stage 1 - books, videos, lessons, exercises, chord charts, methods, and various external things are in control
Stage 2 - control shifts internally to the player, resolving at the physical level
Stage 3 - control, remaining internal, evolving to the conceptual level (however concrete or abstract that may be)
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I practice to be as flexible as possible - lots of variations.
When I get on the stand - well there's licks and modules I habitually play, but I when I am in the right state of mind, I can say no to these. If not, I just play a little on autopilot.
So anyway, your divisions
Yes to all, is my answer.1- Composed solos: This group is the reason the title of the post doesn't say "improvisation". Some seems to prefer fully working out the solos before hand. They may still allow themselves some freedom and alter parts of the solos on the fly depending on how inspired they feel that day, but still the composed solo provides a safe solid structure to follow and go back to as needed.
2- Lick libraries: This is a tricky one as there seems to be a stigma attached to the term "lick". Some people immediately go "Oh no, no. I am not a lick player!" as soon as you ask them about their licks. But they calm down when you say "Oh sorry, my bad, I meant your melodic phrases". (like Emily Remler called them). In this group people have licks for various harmonic situations like I going to VI7 or I7 going to IV7 or just the chords themselves. Freedom comes from assembling and connecting them. They may even play the licks differently in the moment.
3- Chord tone players: This is the most traditional form of jazz soloing dates back to the beginnings. These players have absolute control over the chord tones of the tunes they know. So they can just make up lines based on chord tones/guide tones without getting lost in the form. Connecting them with various chromatic embellishments.
4- Chord scale players: These players are like chord tone players but instead they think in terms of scales that match chords or chord progressions.
5- Strict ear players: It seems to me that this group contains the two extreme group of players. Beginning improvisers and the most experienced ones. This group just plays lines that arise in the moment without any conscious reference to arpeggios, chord scales, positions on the fretboard etc. Although I practice using the approaches 1 to 4, when I'm called to improvise I fall into to this group by obligation
What you want specifics, OK then:
1. Never done this, but I don't disrespect it. I certainly have solos that have a similar form and many similar lines on consecutive nights.
2. I used to be more of a lick player. It's a venerable and honourable tradition, especially for a newcomer to a certain form of music. For instance, if I get booked to do a country gig, I am going to play some cliches in that style (and probably some acidental jazz). I am not going to be as free as I am in jazz.
3. Yes, again this was a phase I went through. Very good. I would encourage a player to master the chord tones (1 3 5 then 7, then extensions) in all positions for any new tune. Still practice this when putting something very unfamiliar together, for instance a Fusion tune. Also Jordan's quadrads are a mix of this and 4. Very flexible, powerful technique.
4. Yes, used as a source of note choices for improvisation this is quite a good cheap way of sounding like a 1st year music student who is obsessed with Kurt Rosenwinkel. Or a rock player who is trying to learn jazz without actually listening to it.
Seriously? I don't much rate this approach as a way of playing grounded traditional language, but it certainly has its uses for the experienced player. The trick is to learn to hear it.
5. I don't know any of these on guitar. I like to think they exist.
The Barry Harris thing is none of the above, really. Elements of all of those, but a way of constructing language.
4. Is the most most troublesome one, because as Reg and other Chord Scale Theory minded players would say, chord/scale theory is not about playing scales, it's a way of organising pitch collections with reference to underlying harmonies (or something.)
The thing is many jazz musicians play scales. Django Reinhardt for instance. And Louis Armstrong. As well as all the bop guys. It is entirely possible to be a player that uses scales (most good players do alongside other resources for reasons of melodic variety) and not use chord/scales.
It also possible to be a chord/scale player and use little in the way of straight up/down scales. A good example might be Nir Felder.
The teacher is the records. Get your ears dirty with some actual music and these divisions will start to seem a little arbitrary.
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I was referring to the approach 3 (chord tones and embellishments) as the traditional language. I agree that chord scale is not the traditional language. Originally Posted by christianm77
Although Barry Harris says chords come from scales and suggests playing bebop scales through the changes as opposed playing arpeggios (I assume). But then he does talk about triad arpeggios in all inversions as essential part of ones practice.
The gauge of mastery here I guess would be being able to play smooth arpeggio based lines by connecting them with the nearest chord tones on bar changes and being able to do that by targeting specific chord tones deliberately. Would you agree? Originally Posted by christianm77
That's a killer right there.
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Yeah I would. Do pure arpeggio in half and quarter notes, i don’t really bother doing it in eighths.
Then practice mixing up the rhythms a bit. Be a little freer with it but still very simple.
Once this is done, add in passing tones, neighbour tones and enclosures etc
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All of 5 mixed in different proportions depending on the gig.
I like playing memorized solos, if they short and fit the song, it could be lovely. Especially transcribed solos. At this point it's no big deal if i miss a note, i can fill it in with my own and carry on. It's a triumph of sorts, because in the past I'd be sweating playing a memorized one on a bandstand, what happens if i screw up, aghhh!
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Oh I see the distinction you're making now. I missed it earlier. You're saying chord/scale playing and scale playing are different categories. Yes that makes sense. Originally Posted by christianm77
From what I know about chord/scale approach, chord/scales are really chord tones and extensions organized linearly for pedagogical purposes (re. Levine). So, that's sort of chord tones then.
Scale approach is more like Barry Harris practice method where dominant and major scales are played "into each other" over a progression.
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Bingo
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Who was it that said something like, "Don't play over the progression... play the progression!"...?
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I try to approach tunes in all different possible ways. I might do a practice sessions where i only play lines over the changes, or only play motifs and melody permutations. Or focus on harmony and see what kind of chord changes i can imply soloing. Or focus on doing things with poly rhythms and time. Take the bluesy or the outside approach, etc..
Ultimately when i know a tune i am aware of the basic chords and the movement of the changes, and only hear melodies (that i can hopefully find on the fretboard). I found two things of being great practice to accomplish that, one just learning melodies of tunes and play them in every way possible on the fretboard, and second, challenge yourself to play completely out of positions and patterns, thus having to rely on hearing notes, and connecting what you hear on the fretboard.
Whenever there is a choice, to practice one or the other way,
usually i tend to try to practice both! It is a win win scenario!
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Or play through the changes. Originally Posted by pauln
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No pre-composed solos.
I do all of the rest, depending on how well I know the tune and can "feel" the harmony.
I don't have a lot of licks, but I do have some, and do use them.
If I can feel the changes and I'm not reading the tune, I play pretty much by ear. I often find it a strain to think about the names of the chords and the chord tones/scales if I'm not reading.
If I can't feel the changes, I mostly go by chord tones and add other notes by ear. But, it depends a little on the chord type. For example, for a major chord, or a dominant 7th I can hear all the notes pretty well and pick from the chromatic scale. For a m7b5, I know the chord tones, but to get extensions I might think "melmin a b3 higher". Or, less often, major scale a half step higher.
I know scales/modes and can think that way if I want to, but I don't usually go that way.
Now, that's what I actually do. My preference would be to be a pure ear player and be able to create melody (with interesting harmony) on the fly, all the time. But, I'm not there. Of course, even the greats repeat themselves, so there's no dishonor in it.
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Wouldn't you say that there was one further level (as outlined in the "Four Stages of Competence")? On the best nights, I feel that the improvisation controls itself and you keep out of the way - i.e. unconscious competence. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Although I am more focused on improvisation, I think there is a benefit to playing composed solos occasionally. The downside of improvisation is, it's easy to remain in the comfort zone and not take chances. Less familiar devices and more physically challenging techniques my go unexplored. Putting these in composed solos might be a good way to working those "foreign" elements into one's improvisation.
In a way it's more difficult to play composed pieces than to improvise. The perfect execution of a challenging 2 min solo in a show is quite a task. I have no idea how classical concert pianists do what they do. Blows my mind.
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This is where I'd like to get, but I'm not sure I'm wired for it. A few years back in my fusion days, my doctor tried me on Concerta (long-acting Ritalin) for ADD. That week at practice I killed it. I could see whole solos. Unfortunately, after a week, I built up a tolerance and it didn't work anymore. I couldn't really tolerate the higher doses (I tweaked out pretty severely one day). Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So I worry that my ADD is a handicap that's going to keep me from attaining this.
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ive been in stage 1 for 10 years
wow that is pretty depressing
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A good example might be Bill Frisell playing Bennys bugle. He normally quotes Charlie Christians line for the first chorus. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I think all jazz players at all levels are at stages 1, 2 and 3 at the same time. The distribution of the 3 stages in ones' playing is the difference. At this point, I'm a 1 dweller most of the time. There are glimpses of 3 in moments. When I'd doodling about it's mostly 2, but it's hit and miss. Originally Posted by joe2758
ive been in stage 1 for 10 years
wow that is pretty depressing
An experienced player will revisit 1 when they are acquiring new language or devices until they are internalized both with respect to ear and fretboard.
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I think composed solos are an excellent way to get a handle on a tune, especially for tunes with difficult changes. For "simpler" gigs, it can also be a useful technique to make sure you don't play stuff that doesn't fit the mood of the gig (e.g. composing solos for a blues gig at a bar, where most people probably wouldn't like someone overplaying). Writing a solo out might also be good for us guitarists, who are notorious for not being able to read music
I never liked the idea of consciously stringing licks together. I've always been more of a fan of using ear and intuition, and if licks/patterns/whatever arise from that, I think it's different. Someone mentioned "stages" of improvisation earlier in the thread and I think it's a great way of looking at this whole thing. Everyone plays licks, chord tones, scales, whatever else, but the "advanced" musician will have everything internalized to the point where lines will either be:
1. spontaneous, coming from the ear rather than memory, or
2. consciously a repetition of something the musician has heard before for effect, but not as a last-ditch "what-the-hell-should-I-play" thing, such as Charlie Parker quoting Popeye in Cherokee,
while the "amateur" musician will be thinking about everything because they NEED to, not because they want to
(or they might play from the ear, but it might not sound very pleasant).
And of course, as you learn new concepts, you must practice them consciously, for a very long time (unless you are a prodigy), in order to internalize them.
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