The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    I hear it as a #9 because the dim chord is not functioning as an altered subdominant which is the function of a dim chord in a major key (i.e. the dim chords in Stella and Can't Give You Anything you were talking about.)

    Those dim chords can be subbed by an altered A7 (Stella) and F#7 (Can't Give You Anything). The 'dim' chord in Manoir should be subbed by an A7 which is a just a dominant function. If the dim is not functioning as a subdominant I don't hear it as a dim, and apparently Django didn't either judging by that big E7#9 chord he was playing!

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  3. #27

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    Dammit I can't stop hearing the E7#9 now in the head, you've got me... More of that altered tinge.

    I hear it much stronger in the second recording. In the first it has more of that Bbo7 or A13b9/Bb sound to me, more E that Eb.

    Maybe the influence of bop a little as well - this was in 1950?

  4. #28
    Haha, good! The thing is most people don't really understand the classical function of a dim chord. I blame chord/scale theory. A 'true' dim is a subdominant!

    I was actually planning to make a video about that today. Discussing functions and that there only 3 functions and actually only 3 possible chords (4 if you count #IV as a separate function, I don't) but many possible alterations to those chords!

    Now the interesting part is that once you understand this and the gravity of the functions you'll be free of chord/scales and can sub all over the place, even (or especially) when the comping plays the standard 'written' functions. It doesn't matter if you clash, the resulting tensions make a resolution to the tonic even more beautiful. Functional resolutions work horizontally, chord/scale vertically and doesn't care about resolutions or at least make them artificially.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Hemert
    Haha, good! The thing is most people don't really understand the classical function of a dim chord. I blame chord/scale theory. A 'true' dim is a subdominant!

    I was actually planning to make a video about that today. Discussing functions and that there only 3 functions and actually only 3 possible chords (4 if you count #IV as a separate function, I don't) but many possible alterations to those chords!

    Now the interesting part is that once you understand this and the gravity of the functions you'll be free of chord/scales and can sub all over the place, even (or especially) when the comping plays the standard 'written' functions. It doesn't matter if you clash, the resulting tensions make a resolution to the tonic even more beautiful. Resolutions work horizontally, chord/scale vertically and doesn't care about resolutions or at least make them artificially.
    I blame CST for most things, though the system has its uses.

    Anyway, although Django does reference the b5 sound in the head of that second recording, he doesn't employ it in the solo.

    You can employ it, and it sounds great, but it sort of changes the mood of the harmony. I'm talking about sounds here.

    The reference to Harmonic Major was really just for people who think that way. I don't. I'm a Barry Harris student and we regard Berklee with amused suspicion.

    In any case, are you talking about non-leading tone dim chords (bIII, #IV and so on) that can't be easily subsituted for a V-I? I always feel those get a bit glossed over. In fact that's what my video was about lol.

    In Barry Harris the treatment of these chords is that they are moving towards a chord built on the fifth of the target chord.

    So #IVo7 goes to V6 on a I chord. bIII does to the same (V6 can be inverted to III-7)

    But regarding harmonic clashes etc. I think the ears are key.

    Some clashes really don't matter or sound really good. For instance check out this recording of Wynton playing #IVo7 on every IVm6 in Struttin' with some Barbeque. It sounds awesome, and I think he is doing it directly under the influence of Louis, who made similar moves.



    That's an example of horizontal resolution leading the logic of the harmonic choices here. Of course Django also did this A LOT.

    OTOH with the Django example it's more colouristic, impressionistic, slower tempo, more time to hear the chords. IMO he is really hearing that major with a b6 (Bb in D) sound on the chord, minor plagal, whatever you call it .... He sustains that mood even in the solo on the second recording. The b2 (Eb in D) note changes the mood, and Django seems to avoid it.

    Remember, Django was a huge fan of Debussy and Ravel, not just Louis Armstrong. And we can remember that many CST concepts derive from this type of music 0 the idea of a more colouristic harmony based on a scale and so on. You can find many examples of modes and colouristic harmony in Django's music alongside functional jazz changes playing of the type we hear in the Wynton recording.

    So - sometimes clashes* don't matter or sound good, but sometimes they sound crap. It's about using the ears, and individual sensibilities will differ. IMO no theory can adequately make up for the ear.

    *I'm not talking about the b2/Eb7#9 here... That's not a clash, but a colour, or a functional resolution depending.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-31-2018 at 07:26 AM.

  6. #30
    OK, lots of points to reply to. Let's go point by point.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I blame CST for most things, though the system has its uses.

    Anyway, although Django does reference the b5 sound in the head of that second recording, he doesn't employ it in the solo.

    You can employ it, and it sounds great, but it sort of changes the mood of the harmony. I'm talking about sounds here.
    Yes, he's thinking A7 which is what the Eb7#9 (or the Bbdim) is subbing. So he's just playing his favorite stuff on A7 which is a lot C#dim and/or E-6 sounds. I've played this song a bunch of times with Stochelo Rosenberg and he likes playing Eb7 there sometimes to change it up (I do to).

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In any case, are you talking about non-leading tone dim chords (bIII, #IV and so on) that can't be easily subsituted for a V-I? I always feel those get a bit glossed over. In fact that's what my video was about lol.
    They can actually easily be subbed with V- I. F#dim to C can be subbed with B7alt to C or B7alt to E-

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In Barry Harris the treatment of these chords is that they are moving towards a chord built on the fifth of the target chord.

    So #IVo7 goes to V6 on a I chord. bIII does to the same (V6 can be inverted to III-7)
    I think that this statement obfuscates the function of those chords a little. #IV is a subdominant and yes it can only move either to a tonic, a dominant or another standard subdominant (bit of an open door) but it can also move to any of the altered functions that go with those (just doesn't happen that much in jazz).

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Some clashes really don't matter or sound really good. For instance check out this recording of Wynton playing #IVo7 on every IVm6 in Struttin' with some Barbeque. It sounds awesome, and I think he is doing it directly under the influence of Louis, who made similar moves.
    Yes he's just subbing one altered subdominant (#IV) for another (IV from minor). You can sub ANY altered subdominant there as long as you resolve it to the next function with a continuing line. It doesn't matter what the comping is doing, they could be subbing as well or play the original changes.

  7. #31
    Sorry for spamming my videos but I actually just made a video demonstrating ALL possible altered subdominant 'substitution chords'.



    EDIT: And I forgot to mention in my previous post that D#dim to D-7 can be subbed by D7alt to G7! I demonstrate that in this video in the last part in which I simplify the tricky bit of 'Night and Day".
    Last edited by Christiaan van Hemert; 05-31-2018 at 08:00 AM.

  8. #32

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    If you haven't done this try an F# triad on the A13b9 with a added G tension note resolving to an A6 arpeggio on the D6/9

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Hemert
    OK, lots of points to reply to. Let's go point by point.


    Yes, he's thinking A7 which is what the Eb7#9 (or the Bbdim) is subbing. So he's just playing his favorite stuff on A7 which is a lot C#dim and/or E-6 sounds. I've played this song a bunch of times with Stochelo Rosenberg and he likes playing Eb7 there sometimes to change it up (I do to).
    I'm sure whatever Stochelo says is the current GJ way.

    It's really not important. Should have picked another example.

    Didn't mean to get bogged down in the Gypsy Jazz thing, because that's not really where I'm coming from, although I do dabble in the music. The OP video I posted was regarding dim chords in general, and I thought the Django example was a pretty example of what I heard as a bVI dim7 chord in a major key with a major third in the melody meaning it can't be parallel minor interchange.

    But clearly you feel that Bb in the bass in the particular recording is less significant than I do, and guys like Stochelo who are not only great players, but also from the same heritage and community as Django can claim and feel a sense of ownership over Django's music which is not really possible to dispute. But that said I do hear it as a Bb chord, so there you go. Functionally it is the same thing as an A7, never disputed that.

    OK, let's find another example.

    They can actually easily be subbed with V- I. F#dim to C can be subbed with B7alt to C or B7alt to E-
    I did'nt communicate that very well, but B7alt to C is not a V-I (although you can use augmented symmetry) and B7 to E- is a different, albeit related, chord.

    Also bIII does not resolve to either of those chords necessarily e.g.: Bbo7 Am7 D7 G

    I think that this statement obfuscates the function of those chords a little. #IV is a subdominant and yes it can only move either to a tonic, a dominant or another standard subdominant (bit of an open door) but it can also move to any of the altered functions that go with those (just doesn't happen that much in jazz).
    Take it up with Barry :-)

    Yes he's just subbing one altered subdominant (#IV) for another (IV from minor). You can sub ANY altered subdominant there as long as you resolve it to the next function with a continuing line. It doesn't matter what the comping is doing, they could be subbing as well or play the original changes.
    Yep, It's a passing chord. It's a movement from IV to I. You could use any sufficiently chromatic chord there provided it resolves right. Anyway I do that stuff all the time.

    But sometimes that IVm chord is a colour. I'd be careful about doing it for the whole duration of the chord in a nice slow Stardust, for instance, and I'm sure you would be too. Again, it's about the ears and playing a melodic line.

  10. #34
    E- is a weak tonic function in C, an altered tonic. So I view B7alt to E- as an altered V-I in C.

    I forgot to address the bIII indeed. Bbdim to A-7 can be subbed by A7alt to D7 which is a V-I. I do it sometimes but usually I play F#7alt to A-.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan van Hemert
    E- is a weak tonic function in C, an altered tonic. So I view B7alt to E- as V-I in C.

    I forgot to address the bIII indeed. Bbdim to A-7 can be subbed by A7alt to D7 which is a V-I. I do it sometimes but usually I play F#7alt to A-.
    Yeah, did you watch the OP video BTW?

    I'm talking about Insensatez - Dm9, C#o7, Cm6 F7

    I play (very simply) - Dm, A/(b2), Cm6, G/(b2)

    And interpret C#o7 very simply as deriving from the Dm (harmonic) key. Influenced here again by Barry Harris.

    Dead vanilla, dead simple. Your options are more exciting, but I think for some situations they are too much, and on a tune like Insensatez I want to be able to play something very inside with just a few notes. So that's my thinking.

    (Django's solo on Manoir I would also regard as very inside.)

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    dim chords in a major key can occupy all functions imo. bIIIdim can be dominant (VII/III) connecting II and III (sonny stitt is often replacing II-V-I with II-bIIIdim-III, proving that function trumps notes. BH wonders why nobody is using that device anymore), or an altered II7 going from III to II. Idim-I is usually just colored I to me (stella, ummg, if i should lose you, misty, etc.).

    i always thought it had been the boppers who replaced all those nice dim chords with plain old II-Vs.
    I think it was the second gen boppers?

    Maybe I'm wrong. Dim7 is a pretty old school sound.

    I mean I had a lesson with Peter Bernstein last week and he played chords at me for 45 minutes straight (it was great!) and I don't think he played a dim7 for the whole lesson.

    He played lots of derivations of dim7's - so structures like x 5 6 6 6 x and x x 5 6 7 6 which can be used like dim7s (but suggest strong W-H flavours)

    To him there's only two functions. And any passing chord into a target chord is valid if the voice leading is interesting...

    Anyway I digress....

  13. #37

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    Sorry for the n00b question, bit by parallel harmony do you mean parrarell motion as in moving a chord around chromatically or borrowing harmony from another “parallel” scale? thx

    edit: nm i guess your power chord thing answers that

  14. #38

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    Maybe we've left the topic but I really think that the 'romantic' sound that you hear (think Chopin tristesse) is the IV minor to I melody that Django plays, that's about it, no more complexity.

    Sure, I've got all these names for things but they all describe different sounds... it all comes back to the basic functions: Tonic, Subdominant, Dominant, Subdominant Minor (it's major when a b6 is present). All of the standard jazz/trad tonal music can fall into this (unless it's non functional or a modal tune). Obviously this doesn't really focus on voice leading like classical theory likes to but describes the basic sounds of each chord.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a GJ player so I default to the pros on most of these matters. So it's now an Eb7#9 in common practice but I don't hear that in the originally posted tune (it could be Gmi6 or Emin7b5 sometimes but I do hear a dim chord at 2:30 in the originally posted tune)

    It's ok if the notes don't fit the chord exactly all the time if it makes melodic sense
    Last edited by bediles; 05-31-2018 at 02:43 PM.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by bediles
    Maybe we've left the topic but I really think that the 'romantic' sound that you hear (think Chopin tristesse) is the IV minor to I melody that Django plays, that's about it, no more complexity.

    Sure, I've got all these names for things but they all describe different sounds... it all comes back to the basic functions: Tonic, Subdominant, Dominant, Subdominant Minor (it's major when a b6 is present). All of the standard jazz/trad tonal music can fall into this (unless it's non functional or a modal tune). Obviously this doesn't really focus on voice leading like classical theory likes to but describes the basic sounds of each chord.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a GJ player so I default to the pros on most of these matters. So it's now an Eb7#9 in common practice but I don't hear that in the originally posted tune (it could be Gmi6 or Emin7b5 sometimes but I do hear a dim chord at 2:30 in the originally posted tune)

    It's ok if the notes don't fit the chord exactly all the time if it makes melodic sense
    yes! I just wanted to present an example regard the notes Django and his band mates actually played on this recording, not discuss what a GJ player would do on these changes.

    The specific case being F# and Bb together in a voicing in D major which can’t be parallel minor borrowing.

    Harmonic Major? I suppose that’s very arguable from someone who uses that concept esp. given the content of the solo.

  16. #40

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    The specific case being F# and Bb together in a voicing in D major which can’t be parallel minor borrowing. Harmonic Major? I suppose that’s very arguable from someone who uses that concept esp. given the content of the solo.
    Ahhhh I get what you're specifically curious about... I think... I would put this example in the Subdominant Minor family as well even if the Bb note is from Dminor and the F# is from Dmajor (but it's the b13 and is the most common melody on diminished chord in tunes of this style and is an extension). It's the presence of that Bb note that gives that part of the tune the characteristic sound that we've been talking about. Sure there's no b6 dim chord in minor but it's so close and Django's playing over it like that.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by bediles
    Ahhhh I get what you're specifically curious about... I think... I would put this example in the Subdominant Minor family as well even if the Bb note is from Dminor and the F# is from Dmajor (but it's the b13 and is the most common melody on diminished chord in tunes of this style and is an extension). It's the presence of that Bb note that gives that part of the tune the characteristic sound that we've been talking about. Sure there's no b6 dim chord in minor but it's so close and Django's playing over it like that.
    I don’t think the theoretical explanation is actually all that important. It’s about the key sounds, which Django clearly goes for - b6, but also the major.

    Also, this makes me think of Bill Evans first chord in Beautiful Love

  18. #42

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    I have some videos on this topic

  19. #43

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    Oh, play anything you like. Everybody else does!

  20. #44

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    About this example above, which is a pretty common way din chords are used:

    am i being overly simplistic if I just hear it as a G7b9 and treat the whole bit as a iii/VI/ii/V?

    Ex on Someday My Prince Will Come: Dmin7/Dddim7/Cmi7/F7

  21. #45

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    I know this is an old thread but I couldn't resist. I was just playing How Insensitive, which Christian used in his video, and thinking about the dim chords, which are plentiful.

    I know the standard way is to use the harmonic minor but I got a bit bored with it. So I thought dim chords contain four dom chords altered with a b9. So how about using the altered scale for each implied 7b9? So over, say, a C#o, use C#, Bb, G or E melodic minor.

    I tried it on How Insensitive and I quite like the effect. Purists might not. What do you think?


  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    PS people can also talk about the Harmonic Major as a parent scale of the dim7, and that's absolutely fine although I'm a little leery of its value as a concept.
    A little above my pay grade but isn't mixolydian b9 a "mode" of harmonic major? Seems more intuitive to me.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    A little above my pay grade but isn't mixolydian b9 a "mode" of harmonic major? Seems more intuitive to me.
    Sure, why not?

    I think of things as key centres a lot. It allows you to unify chords. There are a lot of common chords you'll find in sequences in the key C with a b6/Ab in, but not all of them have a V/G in the bass...

    Dm7b5
    Fm(maj7)
    Fm6
    Abmaj7#11(#5)
    Bo7/Abo7/Fo7/Do7
    E7b9
    G13b9

    Some people like to think of harmonic major. I prefer to think about lowering the 6th in the key.

  24. #48

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    Here's a nice scale you can play on a G13b9 or an Abo7. It's the two octave dominant scale II taught by Warne Marsh:

    G A B C D E F G' Ab' Bb' C' D' E'

    Which is G mixolydian + F melodic minor.

    Have fun with that, it's bloody gorgeous.