John Coltrane's Ghosting Technique on Guitar

[MarkRhodes]

Nice short lesson from Richie Zellon.

[TOMMO]

Yes - watched it the other day - good approach.

[jazznylon]

Thanks for showing this, I should definitely incorporate that to my playing!

[grahambop]

I didn’t think Coltrane was always doing that with tonguing, I thought it was often done by using alternate ‘false fingerings’ repeatedly on the same note. ( Not that that affects how to do it on the guitar.)

[mrcee]

Lester Young used to use false fingerings as well.

[MarkRhodes]

I've heard this expression, "false fingerings", before. I've never been clear on what it meant. In some contexts, it seems to mean that a player is using "false fingerings" to thwart would-be copycats, but that's not the case here.

What is a "false fingering"?

[Boston Joe]

I've heard this expression, "false fingerings", before. I've never been clear on what it meant. In some contexts, it seems to mean that a player is using "false fingerings" to thwart would-be copycats, but that's not the case here.

What is a "false fingering"?

If I understand correctly, it's possible to get a note on a sax using the "wrong" fingering, and using your embouchure to change the tone.

[Chuck]

If I understand correctly, it's possible to get a note on a sax using the "wrong" fingering, and using your embouchure to change the tone.

That is correct, Joe. On woodwinds they're also called "alternate fingerings" and generally yield a softer-sounding tone than the primary fingering. Some simultaneous adjustment of breath pressure and/or embouchure is usually needed to get the intonation right.

[Boston Joe]

That is correct, Joe. On woodwinds they're also called "alternate fingerings" and generally yield a softer-sounding tone than the primary fingering. Some simultaneous adjustment of breath pressure and/or embouchure is usually needed to get the intonation right.

I started on sax when I was about 10, but never really took to it. Quit when I was 18. I had heard about alternate fingerings, but I was having enough trouble with the regular ones.

[grahambop]

I've heard this expression, "false fingerings", before. I've never been clear on what it meant. In some contexts, it seems to mean that a player is using "false fingerings" to thwart would-be copycats, but that's not the case here.

What is a "false fingering"?

Lester Young did this kind of thing a lot:

[Moonray]

Didn’t we all do this 40-50 years ago? (Those who were living
back then)
I learned it from
Chuck Berry and it’s likely he got it from TBone Walker.
Doesn’t diminish the value of this technique or the guy
proposing it.....Mike Stern uses the device quite often
among other contemporary “jazz” guys.
Perhaps it’s been perceived as a rock/blues device.
To me any technique is on the table....if I find a use
for it that fits the feeling of the song/solo.

[dasein]

Pretty sure guitar players like Wes were trying to imitate false fingerings by playing the same note repeatedly, but alternating which string it was played on. One example that comes to mind is the end Wes' single line solo on "Four on Six" from "Smokin' at the Half Note."

[Tomcat]

Joe Diorio wrote a book of etudes on Coltrane classic Giant Steps where unisons are widely examinated:
Joe Diorio Giant Steps PDF-AUDIO | Interval (Music) | Musicology

[MarkRhodes]

Didn’t we all do this 40-50 years ago? (Those who were living
back then)
I learned it from
Chuck Berry and it’s likely he got it from TBone Walker.
Doesn’t diminish the value of this technique or the guy
proposing it.....Mike Stern uses the device quite often
among other contemporary “jazz” guys.
Perhaps it’s been perceived as a rock/blues device.
To me any technique is on the table....if I find a use
for it that fits the feeling of the song/solo.

I was used to this on guitar, yes.

[mrcee]

False fingering on a sax the way I understand it is using an alternate fingering to get the same note albeit with slightly different intonation, or to play a slur or shake which would be difficult or impossible with the conventional fingering. Two such notes are a ''side Bb'' and a ''side C'' where a note (not the target note) is fingered with the left hand on the upper part of the ''rack'' and a side key is pressed with the right hand on the lower keys. The part of the right hand on the edge of the palm just below the base of the index finger or the base of the finger is used. If I remember correctly one way the side Bb is played is by fingering an A with the left hand while pressing the lower side key with the right, The standard fingering for a Bb is to play both the B and the ''bis'' keys with the index finger of the left hand. A side C is played by fingering the B with the left hand and using the right hand to play the middle side key. Lester Young used a side C quite often. There are probably lots of other ones. And then there are unconventional fingerings and embouchure techniques to extend the upper range of the instrument above a high F#. But this isn't really what we're talking about. Educator Joe Allard was a master of this. I believe he taught both Michael Brecker and Eric Dolphy who were adept at getting these ''freak notes''.

A Guide to Finally Figuring Out Which Bb Fingering To Use >> Best. Saxophone. Website. Ever.

Saxophone - LESSON 8

[Robertkoa]

Thanks for the info Mr Cee -I never knew that Sax Players have more than one way to play middle C..interesting .

Here' s Coltrane on Alto :

Please tell me where the "ghosting" occurs or just a few time locations and durations .

I may not understand the term 'Ghost Notes ' even though I do something similar but more legato in between the articulated main notes ... not like what Zellon did in his demonstration .... .it's like articulated main notes ....puff of smoke quiet legato short phrase ..then back to more dynamic articulated, louder notes.
I thought they were ' ghost notes '.....not sure now ...lol.

Another variation of what I thought were ghost notes horn players do is sometimes called a ' fall' usually at the end of a main ' line ' or section.

Blues Guitarists do it sometimes...but rarely all the way to ' legato' or true Horn dynamics ...

If you really want to sound like a horn you need some chops and a way to back off the front end attack on your notes when needed obviously.

[ragman1]

I've done this quite a lot. It's the same idea, or very similar, to the blues idea of hitting an A, say, on the top string and again on the 2nd alternately... you know what I mean.

But often in a solo I'll swap position to get the same note with a different emphasis or intonation or to start a new line. I don't say I play lines as sophisticated as the ones Zellon was playing but they were worked out in advance :-)

But definitely a good idea.