Tritone dominant scale vs Altered scale

[Tal_175]

Different perspectives into the same thing?
It seems to me that this is mainly a bebop/straight ahead/Barry Harris vs Post bop/chord scale theory/academia way of looking at jazz.
There is also a third way. A hybrid approach if you will. That is the tritone Lydian dominant scale. This avoids the "avoid note" in the tritone scale which corresponds to the major 7th of the original dominant scale:
Let's say the Dominant is G7,
Tritone (Db):
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb -> b5(#4) b6(#5) b7 7(!) b9 #9 3 of the original dominant scale.
G altered (starting from Db for comparison):
Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb -> Same except root (G) instead of maj7 (Gb).
Tritone (Db) Lydian dominant:
Same as G altered above.

Which perspective do you use and why? If use the "tritone scale" how do you deal with the "avoid note", just not play it?

[christianm77]

F#s on G7’s are big and clever. That’s what I think.

[christianm77]

Also anyone who thinks a natural 4th is a note to be avoided on a dom7 chord can’t have done very much transcription, or if they have, are quite brilliant at dealing with cognitive dissonance.:-)

[Boston Joe]

What's an "avoid note?" :P

Seriously, that idea screwed me up for so long, because I tried and tried, and just could not figure out what was supposed to be so objectionable about the natural 4 over major chord. Eventually, I figured out that I almost always played it as a passing note, and in that context it works fine. But I wasted a ton of time on it because the word "avoid" was used. Just don't sit on it.

[christianm77]

Check out Charlie Parker. For instance on blues for Alice he puts the notes Eb G Bb D Db on an F7 chord.

This one of many, many examples where the 4, Bb is both arrived at and left by leap. So the use of the 4th is unrestricted on dominant chords. It doesn’t have to be a stepwise passing tone.

On the other hand I would play a 4th this way on a major chord, or if I did it wouldn’t be resolved to the target chord.

So there is a difference between how this note is used on major and dominant chords.

[Tal_175]

What's an "avoid note?" :P

Seriously, that idea screwed me up for so long, because I tried and tried, and just could not figure out what was supposed to be so objectionable about the natural 4 over major chord. Eventually, I figured out that I almost always played it as a passing note, and in that context it works fine. But I wasted a ton of time on it because the word "avoid" was used. Just don't sit on it.

Note the avoid note here is not the 4 natural over major. It is 7 natural over Dominant.

[Tal_175]

Check out Charlie Parker. For instance on blues for Alice he puts the notes Eb G Bb D Db on an F7 chord.

This one of many, many examples where the 4, Bb is both arrived at and left by leap. So the use of the 4th is unrestricted on dominant chords. It doesn’t have to be a stepwise passing tone.

On the other hand I would play a 4th this way on a major chord, or if I did it wouldn’t be resolved to the target chord.

So there is a difference between how this note is used on major and dominant chords.

I don't consider 4 over major or dominant an avoid note, that's just blues to me. But in the post the avoid note is perhaps the more objectionable maj7 over dominant. Which exist in the bebop scale but only as a passing note.

[christianm77]

Note the avoid note here is not the 4 natural over major. It is 7 natural over Dominant.

CST buffs can weigh in here, but afaik That’s not so much an avoid note technically speaking? An avoid note is a note from the mode that clashes in a voicing against the basic 7th chord. For instance, 6th against b7 in Dorian.

OTOH the tritone mix is not a conventional CST choice for G7 cos, well, it doesn’t have a G in it. Therefore the F# is not really an avoid note here - just a note that doesn’t belong to the chord at all.

I think it would be thought a more outside choice for this reason.

Despite the elegance of the tritone symmetry between altered and lyd dom, I can’t find much clinching evidence of this being a concept in bebop lines - perhaps in embryonic form.

Melodic minor notes tend to be quite transitory, often melodic alterations then I think harmonic ones.

OTOH Barry Harris actually identifies Bmaj7 (derived from the Db mix) on G7 as being a cool sound *because* of the Nat 7.

I have started using it all the time in lines and no ones thrown me off the gig yet :-) perhaps they all talk about me behind my back.

At the very least that nat 7 makes a very useful neighbour tone into the I chord if you can’t stomach it as a harmonic tone. And herein lies the nub for me - no notes in a dominant chord are harmonic, because a functional dominant chord is a moving chord in this context.V7(alt) is a bunch of neighbour tones looking for resolution in a target chord.

So, the difference I think is whether you are treating the dominant chord as movement towards a target chord or a sound in its own right.

In the latter case I would point to what Bird does on the longer dominant chords on the bridge of Moose the Mooche.

[mr. beaumont]

Sometimes, I think the avoid notes on dominant chords are the "consonant" ones.

[joe2758]

Note the avoid note here is not the 4 natural over major. It is 7 natural over Dominant.

that note rules

[rpjazzguitar]

Which perspective do you use and why? If use the "tritone scale" how do you deal with the "avoid note", just not play it?

Well, since you asked ...

I don't use the tritone dominant scale. To the extent that I think about such things, I use the appropriate mode of the melodic minor or maybe the tritone arp. I like Mark Levine's writing on this point, which is that melodic minor has no avoid note.

I'd add this ... I don't have a problem with the notion of thinking of a scale/mode that doesn't fit perfectly and adjusting it by ear. In fact, it seems to me that adjusting things by ear is the goal. Thinking about each note and how it sounds against the chord is certainly for the practice room, not so much for the bandstand.

On the bandstand, I try to go by sound, or if I'm reading something unfamiliar, more by knowing the chord tones and adjusting things by ear. But, there are better players who do it a different way.

[Tal_175]

that note rules

Avoid note in my opinion is "any note that can't be targeted on beat one without most of the listeners be unsure of whether you intended that or just screwed up". That I think is the acid test for "avoid note", can you, say, come from half step below on "and of 4" and play a quarter note on beat 1. You can target 9, b7 or a 6 this way on dominant but natural 7?

[christianm77]

Yeah, the mm mode thing is like an accent - it's a sound... I hear it people's playing and I go 'oh that's a thing'

There's no right or wrong here... I think the important thing is an attention to detail, healthy skepticism about the completeness of any theory of music, diligence with respect to actual music and a willingness to use your ears above all.

[christianm77]

Avoid note in my opinion is "any note that can't be targeted on beat one without most of the listeners be unsure of whether you intended that or just screwed up". That's I think is the acid test for "avoid note", can you say come from half step below on "and of 4" and play a quarter note on beat 1. You can approach say 9, b7 or a 6 this way on dominant but natural 7?

Avoid note is a specific term...

Avoid note - Wikipedia

Now you might have your own meaning of the term, but that's going to be confusing when everyone else is using the other terminology. There are a few terms in jazz that have this quality unfortunately. 'Tension' is one.

For me, 'avoid note' is a bad and misleading concept. For instance, Blue in Green, first chord + melody note. Chord has a m7 (albeit barely perceptible to my ear), melody on 6. Bad Miles Davis and Bill Evans, you fail your theory exam. :-)

The fact that the 4th does not harmonically 'go' with the other notes in a major scale, is a fundamental and important realisation. This distinction, along with b6 in minor, is so fundamental that it is categorically different from the other avoid notes to my ears.

[Tal_175]

Avoid note is a specific term...

Avoid note - Wikipedia.

If we accept for a moment that the something is an official term in a domain if there is a Wikipedia article about it, then the wikipedia definition is wrong as the first sentence ends "... and is thus better avoided.". I don't think this is the accepted norm in Jazz. I don't know any authoritative resource in Jazz that would say you should literally avoid "avoid" notes either. Even Mark Levine calls it "handle with care" note I think.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, handle with care is a much better term.

Keep in mind too, not all jazz is the same...You might get to hang on an F# over a G dominant in your post bop group...maybe not with a swing band

[A. Kingstone]

If there are such things as avoid notes I find them; always too late.

[Hep To The Jive]

I play natural 7 over dom 7 all the time, sounds good to me. The beauty of dom 7 is you can play anything over it. Anything!

My rule is the only avoid note is M3 on m chords. That sounds like a loud fart in a quiet room.

[John A.]

Avoid note in my opinion is "any note that can't be targeted on beat one without most of the listeners be unsure of whether you intended that or just screwed up". That I think is the acid test for "avoid note", can you, say, come from half step below on "and of 4" and play a quarter note on beat 1. You can target 9, b7 or a 6 this way on dominant but natural 7?

Wouldn't a simpler definition of "avoid note" be "what Monk played"?

John

[Tal_175]

that note rules

So may be it isn't as objectionable as I thought it was (nat7 over dom). What do I know. I'll definitely start using it and see what I think. I sometimes get yelled at by my teacher for playing nat7 over minor. But that's may be pushing it.

[christianm77]

If we accept for a moment that the something is an official term in a domain if there is a Wikipedia article about it, then the wikipedia definition is wrong as the first sentence ends "... and is thus better avoided.". I don't think this is the accepted norm in Jazz. I don't know any authoritative resource in Jazz that would say you should literally avoid "avoid" notes either. Even Mark Levine calls it "handle with care" note I think.

Well I think there is a Berklee textbook that covers it - Chord Scale Theory IIRC.

The general jazz word for bad notes is 'clams.' There is no formal definition of this word AFAIK.

I think this a little bit symptomatic of a need to categorise something quite subjective in an 'objective' way.

After all, Mozart would have thought a B on a C chord a sharp dissonance that demands resolution. So this is, at least to some extent, subjective. Even now some classical musicians have a hard time hearing maj7 as a consonant chord.

To take this specific example, I think an F# played on a G7 by a beginner jazz musician would sound quite bad. But then a D played on G by the same beginner would sound no better than 'acceptable.'

In the case of an advanced jazz musician they can play all sorts of approaches into chord and all sound great. For instance, Mike Brecker. That might well include an F# on a G7 chord. In fact there was an example of exactly this type of line line played by Wes Montgomery on another thread.

Another way of looking at this is an improvisor must learn to play 'right notes' (featuring strong rhythmic phrases as well a strong note choices, clearly heard and intended) rather than worrying about pathologised 'wrong notes.'

How do you do this? Well, by refining the ear and the sensibility. The latter can be called 'theory' but it is really about being able to recognise and apply sounds. Both aspects are best developed by detailed immersion in the music that you love. Theory is there to suggest further possibilities, not set traps.

The maj7 that Wes uses in that phrase is undoubtedly a right note, because it sounds great - so what makes it so? Audiation and intention, the rhythmic phrasing and the way it resolves into the target chord among other things.

Furthermore, even the best musicians play 'wrong notes' (i.e. unintended notes) sometimes.... And no theory will save you... What will save your performance from faltering is rhythmic intention and the right mental state...

This stuff has taken 25 years + for me to realise. You might think is sounds like a hand wavy bunch of hippy crap, but it's not as vague as it might sound - trust me. :-)

Next week: why 'what should I play over these chords' is a bad question.

[Boston Joe]

Note the avoid note here is not the 4 natural over major. It is 7 natural over Dominant.

Yeah, I got that. But that one has never bothered me at all.

[mr. beaumont]

Well I think there is a Berklee textbook that covers it - Chord Scale Theory IIRC.

The general jazz word for bad notes is 'clams.' There is no formal definition of this word AFAIK.

I think this a little bit symptomatic of a need to categorise something quite subjective in an 'objective' way.

After all, Mozart would have thought a B on a C chord a sharp dissonance that demands resolution. So this is, at least to some extent, subjective. Even now some classical musicians have a hard time hearing maj7 as a consonant chord.

To take this specific example, I think an F# played on a G7 by a beginner jazz musician would sound quite bad. But then a D played on G by the same beginner would sound no better than 'acceptable.'

In the case of an advanced jazz musician they can play all sorts of approaches into chord and all sound great. For instance, Mike Brecker. That might well include an F# on a G7 chord. In fact there was an example of exactly this type of line line played by Wes Montgomery on another thread.

Another way of looking at this is an improvisor must learn to play 'right notes' (featuring strong rhythmic phrases as well a strong note choices, clearly heard and intended) rather than worrying about pathologised 'wrong notes.'

How do you do this? Well, by refining the ear and the sensibility. The latter can be called 'theory' but it is really about being able to recognise and apply sounds. Both aspects are best developed by detailed immersion in the music that you love. Theory is there to suggest further possibilities, not set traps.

The maj7 that Wes uses in that phrase is undoubtedly a right note, because it sounds great - so what makes it so? Audiation and intention, the rhythmic phrasing and the way it resolves into the target chord among other things.

Furthermore, even the best musicians play 'wrong notes' (i.e. unintended notes) sometimes.... And no theory will save you... What will save your performance from faltering is rhythmic intention and the right mental state...

This stuff has taken 25 years + for me to realise. You might think is sounds like a hand wavy bunch of hippy crap, but it's not as vague as it might sound - trust me. :-)

Next week: why 'what should I play over these chords' is a bad question.

To get just a little more hippie dippy, there's really something to the amount of "confidence" a "wrong note" is presented with.

[christianm77]

[Hep To The Jive]

I sometimes get yelled at by my teacher for playing nat7 over minor. But that's may be pushing it.

Sounds like your teacher never played Gypsy jazz. I'd never trust such a teacher.