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This month in our melodic triads study group, we're analyzing this riff from Bird with triads...
There's a lot of ways to analyze a riff like this. Our goal is to look at it with triads to understand how he heard the tension and resolution points and the voice leading through this common cadence so that we can not only play the riff and come up with variations on it, but actually try to learn to hear lines through a ii V I in the same way that Bird did and grow our sense of comfort and freedom improvising ideas through this chord change within those pathways... to try and pick up some of the spirit of Bird even when we're not imitating his exact note choice.
This is what our study guide this month is all about this month... you're welcome to register for it for free if you'd like by CLICKING HERE.
It remains available through the end of the month to work on if you'd like.
Hit me up if you have thoughts or questions.
Jordan
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04-05-2018 03:44 PM
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Interesting line - where is it from?
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1st chorus, 2nd A. Where he plays over the F-7 -> Bb7
He doesn't actually resolve to the EbMaj, so I did change the last note to fit into a more conventional cadence for the group's study material - I find it best to look at more common movements with this stuff as it allows these ideas to spread through our own playing more deeply and thoroughly.
But where it came from, what it was, and how I changed it is all included in this month's study guide.
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I actually kind of feel that makes a difference to the sense of the line, the way it resolves, harmonically kind of a move into parallel minor rather than necessarily being built on the chords, if that makes any sense.
Also bear in mind the melody of the song, it seems to me almost like a melodic embellishment of the original tune. The notes of the melody here being A on the pick up, Bb, Ab, Eb, F and G.Last edited by christianm77; 04-05-2018 at 05:42 PM.
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Also I find the resolution by leap to the note Bb to be a bit unidiomatic (and please, correct me if you can find examples of Parker doing this) - but I would have resolved the phrase by step. The original has E, so we can use Eb here, although Eb is a little boring and banal, and G, while stronger harmonically is kind of melodically weak.
So I see why you opted for Bb, but I personally would have set it up by step on the upbeat. You could have used A and had a nice little octave displacement thing...
It's probably because I work my resolutions mostly as stepwise connections into resolving chords, which might be a bit 'bebop 101' - I dunno.
Anyway, in my practice I find the connections into the resolving chord to be the most interesting bit. It's interesting what works and what sounds a bit clunky (to my ears) - obviously everyone's perceptions will vary.
But for me, what resolves well as a ii V I doesn't necessarily resolve well as a IVm7 bVII7 I or a #IVm7 VII7 I or something. In fact typing this post is really helping me formulate my thoughts. I think resolution is a really big area of growth in my playing. I hadn't really thought of it that way.
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I actually started writing to explain some of the methods and ideas at play, and justifications for decisions... but then it started to get too long... and then I remembered that you already said it didn't work well for you... so it seemed like it didn't make sense to get into a big back and forth. I'm ultimately the happiest when people find the things they dig and work towards them in the way that helps them the most.
Keep at it my man!
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Do you kind of see where I'm coming from? It's a perspective.
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I would like to hear about your approach to it too.
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Re: the solo, I find a comparison of what happens on Fm7 Bb7 each time interesting.
More Bebop - Yardbird Suite - Fiona Harrison Music
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Ear always comes first, Christian. If you don't think it works well as a ii V I and you feel it comes off as clunky, then there's no need to intellectually discuss the approach. What good does that serve? Plus, we've talked at length over the last couple of years about this approach... so it's the same thing I've been rambling on about since we met. Originally Posted by christianm77
The only two things I will say (because I think we DO agree on one, and because you posted a solo and recommended looking at all the F-7 Bb7 moments)...
(1) I fully agree on the importance of looking at the melody and understanding phrases of the solo as being ornamental to that. I think the only difference between us on this one is that my starting point is an analysis of the melody itself using triads to organize the resolution points to better understand the contour and voice leading of the lines so that I can learn to hear through the movement through Bird's phrasing. The end result of that is that everything becomes an ornamentation of the melody at that point... because I'm allowing the same pillars holding up the melody to hold up my improv. I'm not relying on scales or chord tones as my primary go-to... but the melody itself. Which is why I choose this approach. Regardless of how we try and analyze or explain the harmony, if we're relying on the melody, that's the most important. Is it a side step into C minor? Is it a cadence into the relative (Eb) major of that? I don't know. Depends on who you ask, and on which specific phrase of Bird's playing we study... but the analysis of which exact harmonic perspective we take, for me, is secondary to the integrity of the melody.
(2) As per your idea of looking at all of the F-7 to Bb7 moments collectively... it's a cool idea. First thing I notice is that I'm noticing A LOT of the same melodic triads and quadratonics. F minor triad with the 4th added (and chromaticism) over the F-7 chord and C minor triad with the 4th added over the Bb7 chord... and I'm also seeing leaps for the resolutions. In fact, 2 out of the 3 times this cadence happens, he leaps a perfect 5th to move to the next chord... same leap that I used in the riff that I altered the last note of to resolve to Eb major (instead of the C minor side step you mentioned).
Again though, most important is your ear. The theory should always remain a servant of that. Dig what you dig, then use theory to understand it, internalize it, and use it.
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Actually I couldn’t understand the phrase in terms of triads in an obvious way. There are many Parker phrases I do understand as triads, but this doesn’t seem like a triad phrase to me, so I’m interested to know how you break it down. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
But as the OP mentioned the spirit and process of Bird....
Looking at the solo he seems to use that A Bb (A) Ab figure as a fixture each time. It’s obviously related to the melody and melody is obviously related to the chord tones on triads and related triads (I am much more on your page than you may think on this, you should see me teach lol) but the whole solo seems to contain an essence of melodic variation.The only two things I will say (because I think we DO agree on one, and because you posted a solo and recommended looking at all the F-7 Bb7 moments)...
(1) I fully agree on the importance of looking at the melody and understanding phrases of the solo as being ornamental to that. I think the only difference between us on this one is that my starting point is an analysis of the melody itself using triads to organize the resolution points to better understand the contour and voice leading of the lines so that I can learn to hear through the movement through Bird's phrasing. The end result of that is that everything becomes an ornamentation of the melody at that point... because I'm allowing the same pillars holding up the melody to hold up my improv. I'm not relying on scales or chord tones as my primary go-to... but the melody itself. Which is why I choose this approach. Regardless of how we try and analyze or explain the harmony, if we're relying on the melody, that's the most important. Is it a side step into C minor? Is it a cadence into the relative (Eb) major of that? I don't know. Depends on who you ask, and on which specific phrase of Bird's playing we study... but the analysis of which exact harmonic perspective we take, for me, is secondary to the integrity of the melody.
Also the quote of cool blues the bar before... the quotation of both the melody of the song and other tunes is obviously as big a part of Parker’s soloing as anything...
I’m reminded of Peter Bernstein’s thing about varying the melody.
So to take the lick out of context and recontextualise it in this way kind of changes its meaning? It’s not so simple as the harmony, it’s the dna of the tune running through the line. It’s something we - well, I - don’t think about too much when appropriating and analysing bebop lines.
This is something Bruce Foreman talks about...
Yeah, I mean don’t you think generally there’s almost more variation in the rhythm than the note choices?(2) As per your idea of looking at all of the F-7 to Bb7 moments collectively... it's a cool idea. First thing I notice is that I'm noticing A LOT of the same melodic triads and quadratonics. F minor triad with the 4th added (and chromaticism) over the F-7 chord and C minor triad with the 4th added over the Bb7 chord... and I'm also seeing leaps for the resolutions. In fact, 2 out of the 3 times this cadence happens, he leaps a perfect 5th to move to the next chord*... same leap that I used in the riff that I altered the last note of to resolve to Eb major (instead of the C minor side step you mentioned).
The notes you identify are features of the melody. Which did bird write first I wonder, the melody or the changes?
*noted, inc a leap to the 5th of the I chord
I’m not sure I would have noticed this stuff if I’d not seen the solo written down. It's not something I normally think about actually.Again though, most important is your ear. The theory should always remain a servant of that. Dig what you dig, then use theory to understand it, internalize it, and use it.Last edited by christianm77; 04-05-2018 at 07:14 PM.
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As I understand it Barry Harris would have the Fm, Bb and Cm triads folded down into the Bb dominant scale.
Harmonically that scale fits the line well - including the characteristic passing tone Bb A Ab....
We BH heads spend a lot of time working on figures involving thirds and triads from the scale.
By what I found interesting about this line is that in terms of what order the notes it is in it seems not so much an obvious pattern... that’s when I stared thinking about the melody.
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Thanks for the first post and heads up on the study guide Jordan!!!. My limited understanding of Bird does include an awareness of his explorations of upper structures . Seems to me that your own approach of using triads/upper structures is a great tool to use as a key to open some doors. As I slowly explore as a student various other ideas/approaches I notice myself thinking ah thats what Mr Triad is talking about so while I may not be in all the way parts of what you have been sharing are sticking! and making a lot of musical and practical sense. My ear is slowly getting it
Will
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Just watched the study vids and looked at the pdf's great stuff - simple triad + an interval and lots of interesting possibilities open up.
Thanks for what you are doing
Will
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I wonder what Parker would think of the 1000's of attempts to analyse his work? Or even what he'd say in response to this thread? Would he agree that he was thinking triads? Or that he was thinking more like Barry Harris? Or......
Regardless, I'm certain he'd be amused at how people attempt to break his stuff down, like the Magician who keeps them guessing, long after he's gone...
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I agree with you...Also I find the resolution by leap to the note Bb to be a bit unidiomatic (and please, correct me if you can find examples of Parker doing this) - but I would have resolved the phrase by step. The original has E, so we can use Eb here, although Eb is a little boring and banal, and G, while stronger harmonically is kind of melodically weak.
So I see why you opted for Bb, but I personally would have set it up by step on the upbeat. You could have used A and had a nice little octave displacement thing...
But if I just take this phrase separately without reference to original or Parker's style I would think this Bb is connected with C that was 2 beats before.. kind of hidden polyphony.. I think it works here too
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I've decided I like that resolution now. It's a bit different to what I'd do, and that's good. I think I'll practice more resolutions by leap for variety.
I think Bird was thinking of the melody of the tune - consciously or unconsciously.
It is an interesting line. Any conventional bebop analysis I take feels a bit shoehorned.
Let's see if I understand Jordan's perspective.
Fm7
Fm triad - F Ab C
In the line we have Bb A Ab F
So an incomplete tetrad F Ab Bb C (Fm add 11) provided the A is seen as a passing tone
on Bb
Cm triad - C Eb G
In the line we have Eb C G F
So a tetrad C Eb F G (Cm add 11)
I'm not sure that this is how Bird was thinking... But it doesn't actually matter how Bird was thinking and we can't prove it either way.
Any analysis is inevitably misinterpretation. The question is, what feels good to you?
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OK here's another analysis (lol)!
I often play lines that descend to the 7th of the dominant chord and go up the chord... So on (Fm7) Bb7
Bb B Ab C Eb G
I think of this as a descending the Bb dominant scale using the added note scale rules and then up the chord on the 7th. (Barry Harrs) it's a common Parker motif.
You can also raise the first three notes by an octave and get a more intervallic figure related to the Honeysuckle Rose motif.
Now in the line we have
Bb B Ab F Eb C G F
That object in bold could be seen as Fm9 (5 note chord of the 5th of Bb dominant) played out of order. The F is a PT back to the E in the original line. I wouldn't see it as having harmonic function in the original context.
An Fm9 arpeggio encapsulates the triads Fm and Cm, of course.
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I wanted to clear this up, BTW. The nature of this thread often makes me a little more entrenched and pigheaded than I actually am IRL, particularly when I'm on a riff.
I might have said that, but actually that's not true. I think what may have happened on the other thread is that I underestimated the extent to which I use a lot of the basic materials you teach... In particular my practicing ideas based on dim triads is pretty much taken from your materials. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I have definitely shedded the basic triad stuff a lot. Obviously - that's not exactly your 'thing' - but just playing through some ideas now I realise that I can actually add in the tetrads concept pretty simply, and that while I don't necessarily use it on the stand ATM, a heavily triad and triad US based approach to playing changes is actually something that's pretty ingrained in my playing.
The thing I've been unable to do so much is use Jordan's tetrad chords in my comping - so far... But the thing is I can sit down and do it pretty much so there's something very applicable about these ideas right out of the box. He's definitely on to something with this.
The main difference is how I conceptualise and chunk changes in tunes... And a lot of the high level concept is based on Barry. But I'm keen not to underplay how much triad based approaches fit into that approach and how tetrad soloing can be used to extend it organically.
I also think the triad approach allows for a cleaner, more open and perhaps modern approach to changes playing including a more motivic emphasis and a capacity to develop simple ideas. Something I think is manifest in Jordan's playing.
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I haven't taken the time to read through all this thread, but I've read 75% of it. It seems to be dominated by 2 academics talking academia. Who cares how academic A or B would have resolved this phrase: at best they are mediocre copyists.
Swing (and jazz) is based overwhelmingly on diatonic 7ths (4 note chords). Parker and Bop reharmonised as much as they could to dominants. Parker is famous for playing on the upper extensions - 9, 11, 13.
If you want to get good at jazz : (1) learn triads (2) learn 4 note diatonic 7th chords (3) understand dims (4) get the major scale, and its "modes".
You only need the major scale (and its "modes"), and diatonic 7th chords to be a professional jazz player. Jimmy Bruno's method teaches this. Joe Pass's playing is overwhelmingly based on this type of approach.
Dims were actually used much more often in early jazz, let's say Gershwin.
If you feel you're ready to be Holdsworth, McLaughlin, or Martino... cool. But you're in the wrong place.
I really hope no-one is paying for the snake-oil some people are trying to sell here.
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I never said he was thinking with triads. I stated pretty specifically that I have no idea what he was thinking, and that it likely wasn't triads. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I wonder what Parker would think of the 1000's of attempts to analyse his work? Or even what he'd say in response to this thread? Would he agree that he was thinking triads? Or that he was thinking more like Barry Harris? Or......
As per his feelings on musicians analyzing his (and others') work to continue to learn more and develop as players - what little we do know about his thoughts and feelings regarding practice, schooling, and continuing to study with others up to the end of his life - my assumption is that he'd think it was great... but again... I've never claimed to speak for him or anyone else.
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Hey Will... how you been? Really happy to hear your ear is improving. I think that's arguably one of the best signs of things shifting and improving. And happy to hear if some of the triad ideas are starting to make sense. It's ironic how sometimes, the stuff built on the simplest elements of music can be the trickiest to wrap our minds around. Took me close to 25 years and then working with some insanely heavy teachers and players to finally get it through my thick head that I hadn't even begun to scratch the surface yet with triads and what's possible there. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
Thanks for the first post and heads up on the study guide Jordan!!!. My limited understanding of Bird does include an awareness of his explorations of upper structures . Seems to me that your own approach of using triads/upper structures is a great tool to use as a key to open some doors. As I slowly explore as a student various other ideas/approaches I notice myself thinking ah thats what Mr Triad is talking about so while I may not be in all the way parts of what you have been sharing are sticking! and making a lot of musical and practical sense. My ear is slowly getting it
Will
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Oh.. practical people here...I haven't taken the time to read through all this thread, but I've read 75% of it. It seems to be dominated by 2 academics talking academia. Who cares how academic A or B would have resolved this phrase: at best they are mediocre copyists.
Look... you haven't taken time to read through all this thread...
But you think you have right to say that at best they are 'mediocre players'...
I always think: are not people smart enough on forums to distinguish things in writing?
What is written by Christian and Jordan here is quite self-sufficient.. if you take time to read it carefully, and try it thoughtfully you will see what it is and how it works...
If you respect people them - take time to read, understand and answer accordingly.
If not - stay way from it. What do you protect with your interference - presumption of neglegence? right for ignorance?
PS
I do not even mention that both Christian and Jordan are accomplished quite original players who posted billions of videos here.
But it does not actually matter that much... even if they did not post a single video it would not have diminished the meaning and value of what they wrote.
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I’m very happy to put into the same category as Jordan playing wise, believe me.
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@Christian
I'm sorry if I'm not 100% sure how to connect with you on this topic or where to begin with this conversation. I know you're way into the BH thing and think that's awesome. Like I said earlier, ultimately I'm a fan of people finding what they dig the most and going all-in on that until they've sucked every drop of juice out of that thing as possible... which can generally take a really really long time...
Also the switching between not liking something, not feeling it works, and not feeling something is idiomatic to then deciding you like it so much it's something you want to work on... just tough to know where you're at and to communicate through typed word instead of hanging and playing or talking over coffee, you know?
The one thing I would say in this context is that after spending basically the last 3 years on the triad stuff I've been focused on the simplicity of triads has become over-shadowed to me by the simplicity of what this type of thinking can do... and it's very related to the BH stuff. It's just tension resolution. That's it. I can come up with fancy names for things and systemize a method for breaking it down to help myself and/or others learn specific pieces of the puzzle. But it's just tension and resolution... tonic and dominant.. Maj6 and diminished... whatever.
With BH (I'm not the person here to talk about this because I've only come into contact with him once or twice and haven't studied his stuff nearly as extensively as you have) it's about the 6 chord being the stable resolution stuff, and then the diminished offering the tension.
For the triad thing, the resolution stuff is minimized down to the triad level where we have 3 notes to create resolution, and then everything else produces tension against that. This is a highly simplified view of the concept, but ultimately that's it. So the concept of applying tension notes against the triad is just a smaller more molecular view of the BH stuff... as far as I can tell.
I do prefer for myself to stay away from the scale, mode, diatonic key approach though. As none of these prioritize the hierarchy at play within the tension resolution game. Of course, it's possible to find those things and express them... but they're not at the core of what's most important there. They're about democratizing and homogenizing everything. Okay, here are all the moving parts in one big picture. Well that's cool to be able to see how things are connected... but until we have mastered the ability to create movement (which will never happen) and to do so in a richly melodic way, and can do so with single-note improvisation, comping, and composition and arranging... that's where I want to keep my head and my heart.
I'm about to run out the door to grab a quick bite with my cousin before he heads back to Germany... so no proof-reading or making sure any of this made sense. Sorry if it doesn't.
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I’m not sure it’s necessary to engage lol, just smile and nod and I’ll eventually stop.
I think what I’m trying to say is I’d implied elsewhere I’d not got much out of your online lessons when actually I had and I kind of forgot that. That said I haven’t gone massively deep into it. But I do like playing around with adding a tension note to triads.
TBF my brain is like scrambled eggs atm
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