The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Within any group of creative artists or musicians, there are a few who care more about the possibilities than the traditions. There is a certain small demographic who enjoys finding new ways to do things that sometimes fly in the face of the ways things have been done.
    I'm forming a small group within this forum, of the musically curious and restless, to participate in, redefine and create new ways of treating harmony within an existing harmonic framework (improvisation) or creating new compositions.
    I'm looking for those within the forum who want to participate (this not so much a lurkers' community because contributions and questions will drive the thread) and practice (these ideas won't happen or become realized without a lot of work.)
    Put aside your transcriptions, your conventional set of licks or the goal of just making the changes.
    In the end, I hope that I'll have a nice place to work with you and formulate and become proficient in ways to reharmonize pieces, re-assess our own assumptions of tertiary harmonies and make new guidelines to take your solos out of the changes and back in, with total control.

    If anyone would be up for a non judgemental take on possibilities, please weigh in and say a little about what appeals to you personally about this idea. If I get a critical mass here, I'll begin with some burning questions on the nature of improvisation and the role of alternative harmonies in the respectful balance of tonal harmony.

    Thanks to any of you who would be a part of this.
    David
    Hey David,

    I think this is great. If I can share my opinion on the big picture... the real "THE TRADITION" of jazz is one of constant curiosity and innovation. Over time that came to yield a particular sound which was so spectacular that it came to be known as "the thing" itself... but I'd venture to say that if Miles or Coltrane or Duke were alive today, they'd still be on the front lines of exploring the possibilities of these types of ideas.

    I had been toying with methodizing and systematizing some forward thinking explorations in modern jazz harmony and how it affects melody (and vice versa). I certainly don't want to step on your toes with your idea and am not pushing that here. I just want to offer a little advice based on what I've learned over the last 3ish years.

    I found that when I simply talked ABOUT those ideas... like in terms of presenting it as theory... the ideas were primarily met with skepticism, push-back, and sometimes even anger and trolling... the whole "How dare you say something different from what I know"... even when it wasn't THAT different... just being presented in a different way. There were definitely folks who were interested and wanted to talk... but it seemed like I was always playing defense. It was an interesting experience.

    Fortunately I'm a really stubborn person and didn't care hahahaha

    A few months ago I sort of "formalized it" into an online study group where we do still talk about theory, but where I break it down into more of a step-by-step method to help people actually implement things, rather than just talking about the ideas conceptually... and more importantly, I present it with videos where we can actually HEAR the sounds right away. In fact, I try to talk about the theory as little as possible until AFTER folks get the sounds and the music going.

    I still get a lot of push-back... but it's amazing how much more responsive people are when presented with the music first, and the theory on the backend. The group has grown in size pretty quickly with this setup, and we now have quite a number of very interactive people who are really getting into it and picking up the ball and running with it.

    I think what I've found to be important for making new things like this to be more accessible is to find a way to offer very concrete ideas in application first... like... here listen to this... dig it? Cool, this is the theory behind it.. and now here are the basic steps to getting it into your ears and mind. In the past, I started with the theory and conceptual stuff first and found that far too often it would just lead to arguments and glass half full vs glass half empty type stuff. Now it's more like... hey are you thirsty? Here's some water, take a swig. Feel better? Cool... let's hang and talk about that. hahaha

    Just some thoughts... take them with a grain of salt. Probably best to organize it and structure it based on your own personality and what you're up for. That's just what I've found to be the case over the last few years of attempting to do something similar online.

    I'll look forward to checking in on what you're up to and seeing how it unfolds and what kinds of ideas you all end up discussing!
    j

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Hey David,


    I think what I've found to be important for making new things like this to be more accessible is to find a way to offer very concrete ideas in application first... like... here listen to this... dig it? Cool, this is the theory behind it.. and now here are the basic steps to getting it into your ears and mind. In the past, I started with the theory and conceptual stuff first and found that far too often it would just lead to arguments and glass half full vs glass half empty type stuff. Now it's more like... hey are you thirsty? Here's some water, take a swig. Feel better? Cool... let's hang and talk about that. hahaha

    Just some thoughts... take them with a grain of salt. Probably best to organize it and structure it based on your own personality and what you're up for. That's just what I've found to be the case over the last few years of attempting to do something similar online.

    I'll look forward to checking in on what you're up to and seeing how it unfolds and what kinds of ideas you all end up discussing!
    j
    Jordan! Good to see you here. Yeah, I agree totally. I just take it for granted that people will play around with these ideas, and I tend to just play these ideas with people around me rather than document them electronically. Still stirring the soup and serving it live. I've got to get over that philosophical barrier. Heh, I was just down in the city this weekend, and thought I should find out how to reach you next time I'm down. Would love to hang.

    I realize these ideas take time to find a natural application, and people I've worked with have all come up with different ways to use it. The process seems to be 1) What?!! 2) How do I use that?! 3) That's too much work. 4) Cool. 5) (after a lot of playing around...) Where did THAT come from?
    For me it's to create extended chordal passages that supplant existing harmony and now I just do it. I should post some ideas, see how they fly around here. I also have this idea about seeing other people find applications I'd never thought of, and not letting what I do steer them from owning it.
    But I really like your reminder of sharing what I've got.

    Made my day. THanks
    David

  4. #28

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    Hey Jordan, good to see you...

    TBH, of all the ideas I find out about, I only have time to apply 1% of them in any meaningful way in my playing.

    From what I know of your music you strike me as a player who has applied one or two simple things in great depth, which to me seems to be what most of the really good players actually do. That takes patience, conviction and focus.

    From my own experiences, there is a strict limit on stuff you want to put in your practice routine if you want to make any progress with one thing. I feel many players are stretched too many ways feeling they have to learn EVERYTHING*. Which of course, no human can because it's never ending. So you have to make a choice. And a choice made by what resonates with you on a molecular level is the best way to make that choice IMO.

    But the fact we can't master everything shouldn't be a cap on trying stuff out. TBH I doubt I will get around to mastering your Aaron Copland-esque tetrad inversions - I dig them, but they don't feel like they are for me right now. But I can certainly spend an afternoon trying them out. I'm not sure I realised that a couple of years back. Obviously you have to get to a certain point of basic craft to be able to do that.

    ATM my time to practice is more limited than it was. So I'm not sure I'll be able to try new things too much.... But if anyone has music to post, I will listen. That's it really. Until I hear someone's music, their theoretical musings are kind of neither here nor there to me... I have to hear it...

    *especially when there are players who seem to know EVERYTHING. But of course they learned they way we all do. They just done more of it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-02-2018 at 05:15 PM.

  5. #29

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    So it goes back to education being - 'to draw something out of the student.'

  6. #30

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    The trouble with working it out analytically is that you're almost inevitably going to move in well-worn patterns. The way the brain works means it can't actually do much of anything new so you have to sort of by-pass it.

    Just using your ear can do it. If you play something with the note you want on top and it sounds right, it is right, at least for you. You can tidy up voice-leading, flow, etc, later.

    The problem is, frankly, remembering what you just played spontaneously. Because I'm not thinking traditionally, most of the time once I've played it it's gone. It has to be that way otherwise one's simply back in the old ways. So I jot down the notes.

    It's also not a question of thinking in terms of known chords. It's the notes that matter, not whether they look like known shapes. If a progression works, the notes will almost always bear some relation to the original sequence harmony-wise.

    I've seen quite a few posts in my time where the player is obviously looking for a cool sound but still thinking in terms of traditional theory. He wants to justify what he's playing by the 'right rules' otherwise he'll say it's not acceptable. This is what's so limiting.

    The bottom line, therefore, is whether the ear is any good. If it's not, then unfortunately what seems good to the player may not to anybody else. Mind you, they do say the ear will adjust to almost anything given time :-)

    This works very well for solo guitar, of course. Within a band context is a different matter.

    I just spent a short time doing variations on a 1625 in C. The first one is the standard | CM7 | Am9 | Dm11 | G13 | with notes G B G E on top. The other three are the same 'tune' but different sounds. I think they're fine. You may not...


  7. #31

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    Short version:

    In other words forget everything you know and dive into the unknown... BUT it's got to appeal aesthetically otherwise it doesn't work.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hey Jordan, good to see you...

    TBH, of all the ideas I find out about, I only have time to apply 1% of them in any meaningful way in my playing.

    From what I know of your music you strike me as a player who has applied one or two simple things in great depth, which to me seems to be what most of the really good players actually do. That takes patience, conviction and focus.

    From my own experiences, there is a strict limit on stuff you want to put in your practice routine if you want to make any progress with one thing. I feel many players are stretched too many ways feeling they have to learn EVERYTHING*. Which of course, no human can because it's never ending. So you have to make a choice. And a choice made by what resonates with you on a molecular level is the best way to make that choice IMO.

    But the fact we can't master everything shouldn't be a cap on trying stuff out. TBH I doubt I will get around to mastering your Aaron Copland-esque tetrad inversions - I dig them, but they don't feel like they are for me right now. But I can certainly spend an afternoon trying them out. I'm not sure I realised that a couple of years back. Obviously you have to get to a certain point of basic craft to be able to do that.

    ATM my time to practice is more limited than it was. So I'm not sure I'll be able to try new things too much.... But if anyone has music to post, I will listen. That's it really. Until I hear someone's music, their theoretical musings are kind of neither here nor there to me... I have to hear it...

    *especially when there are players who seem to know EVERYTHING. But of course they learned they way we all do. They just done more of it.
    Not sure if your comment was directed at me or the OP... it started with a hello to me, so it seemed like it was at me.

    It's all good man. My original comment had nothing to do with you or anyone in particular (minus perhaps 2 or 3 incredible aggressive troll-types on the forum who seemed like they were always looking for an argument with anyone about anything and who've long since not really been on here). No explanations needed. It's just human nature and reality. We tend to gravitate towards what we know and already relate to, and then like you said, we only have so much time in the day so we prioritize the things of our choosing.

    That's kind of more or less what I was trying to convey to David. Just to think through the HOW he wants to communicate new ideas as much as the what... because how things are presented can often make a big difference in terms of how others relate to it.

    Complex theory -> specific method -> actual hearing is a very different process than
    Actual hearing -> specific method -> simple theory -> complex theory

    And I think the latter works better at helping to avoid big messy misunderstandings and meet in the common areas of sound to connect with others more deeply and THEN move outwards into the other elements of it.

  9. #33

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    Two ideas that I'm interested in developing further:

    1. Chord over chord or families of triad over bass. The Brett Willmott book pointed me towards this.

    Example

    D
    Eb

    GDF#A ..... BbF#AD ...... EbADF#

    BbF#AD ...... EbADF# ...... GDF#A

    EbADF# ...... GDF#A ...... BbF#AD

    2. From the Mick Goodrick books, the idea of triad over bass chords inverted.
    I never fully studied the TBN1 and TBN2 sections of the Almanacs.
    They are a bit challenging to play and their application isn't as obvious to me.
    Could be time to revisit.

    Sorry to perhaps jump ahead, especially in light of Jordan's rational call for sensible sequencing of
    presentation to facilitate learning in a way that is best internalized. The thread brought these thoughts
    to the fore. I look forward to hear what others have to say as the thread evolves on any related aspects.
    The idea of a tension hierarchy is of particular interest to me.

  10. #34

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    Just wanted to say I appreciate this thread and wish I could contribute a bit more than that sentiment alone, and the few sentences I'm including here. I still scan this forum periodically, but scheduling demands make it difficult to read threads, give each post respectful consideration, and craft a thoughtful reply. Great thing to do in person and with instruments in hand but I very much appreciate TruthHertz' intent here.

    I will say this - after a while arranging tunes for solo guitar I think I've come to a point of having a certain aesthetic range that I consistently go for and I feel comfortable recognizing it's not Joe Pass and it's also not Kurt.

    I also think at this point in my life I've accepted that there may not be any sort of "line" playing that feels organic to me. I've spent time copying lines from different styles and players, and I feel like I can do some ok impressions, and I can play some lines that I think are logical and or interesting, but for a while now I've just felt that I'm not a "lines" guy and that conclusion alone feels progressive and off the traditional grid; It's nice to not feel like I have to play in a certain way that will win jazz points. When that gradually "clicking" happened in my head I feel like I became a much happier guitar player.

  11. #35

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    and for what it's worth, a half-kidding solo arrangement of "You Look Wonderful Tonight" using some vaguely messiaen constructs (harmony moving in major thirds) :

    Jake Estner (Guitar Stuff) on Instagram: “A very slightly reharmonized "You Look Wonderful Tonight" by Eric Clapton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . #reharm #tritonic…”

    I think these things are fun, and satisfying for me to experiment with, so I do them.

  12. #36

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    There are many arranging techniques used to create or camouflage harmony etc... I would think most don't really get into arranging and may not even understand the language...But back in the 70's when one could make a living composing and arranging... anyway from Vegas to TV and movie wk.... almost everything was tried'

    To even really begin one needs to have a basic understanding of Harmony, theory and counterpoint and melodic organization. But a very simple way to voice a melodic idea or melody is to write a bass line that is diatonic to the melody and harmony, (from analysis) and then use non diatonic Triads with the melody being on of the chord tones of the triads...

    Part of being able to arrange in this style requires being able to organize, rhythm and use of Dissonance and Consonant .... to shape the melody within the space...

    I was taught this approach back in the early 70's from HP at berklee and from playing in BBs in Boston area.

    Again this was all based on an analysis from the CST direction... doesn't really matter what you use as organization for labeling notes and harmony, as long as it's repeats and you can label etc...

    And again you need understanding of traditional counterpoint and Jazz counterpoint.... they're different but use same principles just different guidelines as to what's accepted practice.

    Another technique is to use similar approach... start with melody, then derive a voicing technique and rules for what the voicing notes need to follow. 4th's and 2nd's was cool sounding... Constant Structure, Chord Patterns or Cycles were cool for short phrases. All of these approaches were cool for working with film or shows ... they create great effects.

    Any of these approaches can create movement and create different types of Function as compared traditional Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant.... but you can still use the terns in an expanded approach, that's how I've approaches Harmony for the last 40 years.

  13. #37

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    I'm really excited to have such a knowledgeable and diverse group here. There are so many different things I want to assimilate into my own playing, things that have existed in theory and in limited practice and it was my hope that with you guys, I/we could throw out some practical ideas, and finding strength in numbers, explore the transition from good ideas to things we actually incorporate into practical, beautiful, unexpected and expanding applications.
    Yeah a lot of this is NOT under my own fingers yet, and the process is a slow one, but as you've voiced here, it's not novelty we're doing here, it's exploring, mapping and quantifying some pretty large goldmines, taking what we want to work with and making something usable out of it.

    I'm just now compiling and drawing out some chord shapes so we can have semi exhaustive collection of chord grids that represent voicings of closed triads over the chromatic bass notes, after which we can start playing around.
    Reg, I really appreciate your contributions (always have) and I hope you'll add as many of your thoughts as you can, but more importantly, I hope in this and with the help of one another, we can find sounds and useful harmonic groupings you would have never thought to use. That's the real point here.

    It's hard to know just how specific to get in introducing material. Some members on the group are unravelling the mysteries of chord placement on the fingerboard, others can create a complete chord solo on the fly over the entire range of the guitar. There's something here for everyone, but it's hard to know how much I should explain, and outline and for that I wanted you all to speak up.

    Some can interpolate the re-ordering of given harmony over a tonal group of a standard, some, I imagine would find a re-written lead sheet helpful. I don't know so do say.

    We'll get to concrete stuff as soon as I can write it out. This can be the most exciting material I've worked with in my time on the forum. We'll see. Gotta say, when I work with these structures, I don't name the chords by letter name. It doesn't seem helpful in their use as moving structures, but that's me. New territory here.

    Thanks all
    David

  14. #38

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    Hey David... cool, wasn't sure I should get involved, but the direction is fun.... obviously not audience friendly, more for musicians.

    A good practice drill for developing performance skills for using uncharted harmonic and melodic waters.... anyway is to play standards in relative and parallel keys... then move on to relative modal relative and parallel keys etc...
    example... play St Thomas in relative minor etc...

    The trick is to not practice or try and memorize new melody or changes... but to play live. When I use to gig... non stop, it was a way to make tunes new and have fun at gigs.

    Like transposing but with another level of organization.... then modal, We even use to use sub relationships, gets a little stupid... but we develop your live performance skills.

    Personally what I believe makes this skill easy is being chart conscious... I hear and think tunes in roman numerals with a reference, and hear melodies with reference to chord tones or at least targets. Anyway... that's a different thing.
    Here's a couple reharms of How Insensitive....and The Days of Wine and Roses... did 7 or 8 years ago on this forum...




  15. #39

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    Simple idea: I IV V major triads against any bass note that sounds good alone and sequentially.

    D/C G/Eb A/Bb

    X C F# A D X ..... X Eb G B D X ..... X Bb E A C# X

    X C X A D F# ..... X X Eb B D G ..... X Bb X A C# E

    C X X D F# A ..... X Eb X D G B ..... X X Bb C# E A

    X C F# X D A ..... X Eb G D X B ..... Bb E X C# X A

    C X A X F# D ..... X Eb B X G D ..... Bb X A X E C#

    ect.

  16. #40

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  17. #41

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    Here's a set of triads over bass notes. Each page gives individual 4 part chords progressing from chords of least dissonance (more consonance) to chords of most dissonance.
    Experiment with these and put them in combination with one another to explore the effects of chords, not by their function over a chord symbol, but their abilities to convey changing degrees of colour.
    They cover triads in 3 inversions, over two sets of strings, each with 9 distinct bass notes so no tones are doubled.
    Take a poke at this toolbox, and the fun begins as we each give our individual takes on how to use these in compositional and diatonic applications.
    Let the fun begin!
    David
    New constructs in modern harmony and form-fullsizerender-jpgNew constructs in modern harmony and form-screen-shot-2018-04-15-10-44-56-pm-pngNew constructs in modern harmony and form-screen-shot-2018-04-15-10-45-17-pm-pngNew constructs in modern harmony and form-screen-shot-2018-04-15-10-45-34-pm-pngNew constructs in modern harmony and form-screen-shot-2018-04-15-10-46-02-pm-pngNew constructs in modern harmony and form-screen-shot-2018-04-15-10-46-19-pm-png

  18. #42

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    I suppose one way I have worked with this type of material is to take a melody and harmonize it specifically with triad over bass notes (with the top three voices being the triad and the bass voice being the non-chord-tone note) but push myself to look for a triad/bass note combination that i have difficulty analyzing or seeing in a conventional context.

    Often I find myself looking at things that way in the sense that: if I can justify it easily as being some key change or cadence or modal change that I'm used to, I look for another option to push my ears and creativity. Obviously this doesn't lead to a hit record, but I've found this type of thinking over the past 2-5 years or so has made me be a lot more harmonically flexible.

    For the triad over bass note stuff, I think a terrific entry point to the idea of using them in a not-part-of-conventional-cadence type of way is to try harmonizing a melody.

    Perhaps an interesting thing for us all to try is harmonizing a very straight forward melody (a standard, a nursery rhyme, a pop song) using only triads over bass notes, and trying to use as little information from the original harmony of the song as possible?

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    I suppose one way I have worked with this type of material is to take a melody and harmonize it specifically with triad over bass notes
    Precisely how I've been using it. Any melodic line I chose to treat this way, I try to pick one that ends with a dominant chord from the original changes, then when I arrive at that chord, I play it as a dominant and it takes me right back "in". I'm always surprised at how well that works. At this point, it's small passages, usually not longer than a couple of bars.

    David

  20. #44

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    [QUOTE=christianm77;859808]

    Anyway, I'll attach an example of something from my forthcoming album, Honeysuckle Rose

    Christian, liked it a lot, very quirky flavour, very cool

    ps you ought to give Derek-Bailey some lessons. Dont let him near your ES-175

  21. #45

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    Thanks. Derek was definitely in my thoughts when I cut that lol. It can be difficult to get away from him when playing free.

  22. #46

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    What a great thread. I remember seeing those diagrams David but I wasn't ready for it at the time.

    How things change. I'm writing stuff that is somewhat unconventional but hopefully highly original.

    Does anyone want to revive this thread?

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    What a great thread. I remember seeing those diagrams David but I wasn't ready for it at the time.

    How things change. I'm writing stuff that is somewhat unconventional but hopefully highly original.

    Does anyone want to revive this thread?
    You FOUND it! I KNEW I started this and I could not, for the life of me, remember what it was called. YES, let's bring this baby to life again. It's been forever.
    This is the stuff that Jack Pezanelli gave me, and I was about to start a new thread but here we are.
    Yes time has given me a fresher and more evolved perspective, we should definitely revisit this stuff. It brings Goodrick's non functional diatonicism and Jack's beautiful harmonized melodic lines into one space.
    Very cool stuff that I've been working very closely and hard with for the past 6 months or so. Good timing.

    For starters, I think it's really good to analyze tunes as far as tonal blocks, harmonic areas that have their own starts, endings and functions, then to figure out different ways to inform those 'chapters' with inside and outside harmonic progression. IMHO there are way too many students who look at a piece as a blind colouring book of chord symbols where the space is filled with ...thoughtless notes.
    Harmony is the so pervasive yet so easily misunderstood when we think in such small episodes (What scale goes over this chord, what II V licks can I use to shoot my load by the end of this section...).
    These techniques of non function (for lack of a better term) force us to observe, feel, quantify and control just what we want to create, sensually, in a harmonic area.
    We intuit these landscapes of tension and release when we sing the words, but how many of us really impart the same sense of importance when we're playing?
    The devices in this thread are things that will allow us to create distinction and harmonic colour within the sections of a piece.

    Maybe we can begin by asking "How do YOU form and use the enormous resource of harmonic vocabulary in the service of the tune? Is this something you are aware of and to what degree?" Maybe with this discussion, we can open up the topic of not only "What" we can play, but "When" and "Why".

    What's anyone reading this think of this material and direction for this material.
    Thanks Liarspoker! You made my day in finding this lost thread!

  24. #48

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    In honor of Jack Pezanelli, I'll relate a story of my studies with him. He had thrown a tune into my lap and said "Let's play this". It was a melody based on the chord movement of There Will Never Be Another You.
    We played it through, had some fun soloing and comping. We ended, and after a quiet spell he asked me what shapes my solos and my harmonies.
    He then proceeded to break the piece into sections: A question asked, Another question related, a commentary, a questioning commentary. Each different to some degree. Then he created a narrative of a story of some people and as he outlined each gesture, or dramatic action, he orchestrated it with rich harmonies which were carefully chosen to impart some beautiful and fitting feeling to each melodic idea. When he reached the final first chorus double bar, he'd created an exquisite chord solo improvisation.

    That was how he got me hooked on chords of differing dissonance and how to "dial in" tension based on the effects he was after. He orchestrated on the spot like a movie score. These harmonies followed the melody and dramatic line rather than the harmonic changes as they were given. The effect was stunning.

    That's something that we can think about when contemplating "Just how far can I go with the knowledge I have and where are some of the next steps I can explore?"

    Thoughts?

  25. #49

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    Between when this thread was previously active and now I have been listening to a lot of Jacob Collier. Both his music and his interviews/talks. I think his approach really fits into the idea of "hooked on chords of differing dissonance and how to "dial in" tension". Another part of his music and improvisations is the frequent use of unusual modulations.

    Are you familiar with him?

  26. #50

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    This is some raw reference material I'll be working with. It's from Mick Goodrick. It's his richness chart, his take on Herb Pomeroy's arrangement techniques.
    New constructs in modern harmony and form-screen-shot-2022-10-26-7-42-19-pm-png
    Mick looked at any chord as a blend of all the individual intervals within it. Each interval had a lesser or greater amount of consonance or dissonance to it. By adding the total amounts of "richness" and finding the average throughout, any chord can be assigned an average quantifiable index that, even given the same functional role, can have a radically different impact on the listener.
    When you're writing an arrangement, these are real considerations. Mick took this a step further and his chords had a richness index known to him that allowed him to subtly alter the impact of chords while he was comping, to complement or contrast with the lines he was 'enriching'. That's one of the secrets he had to playing 'just the right chord' underneath a soloist.

    All 3rds and 6ths had the least amount of "grit" to them.
    The Tritone within the chord had the next step, he gave these a value of 1
    Perfect 4ths and 5ths were next, and these had a value of 2
    Whole steps, b7 and natural 9 were next and these had a value of 3
    Half steps Major 7ths and b9's were the most rich and these had a value of 4.

    When totaling the sum all intervals within must be totaled, then divided for an average. We feel intervals that originate from the 3rd of the chord to an 11th for instance. It's diatonic but it creates a stong interval, so right there, you've got an element on the 4th order...

    This is the Goodrick/Pomeroy approach to harmony.

    There's a lot that's shared with the Pez approach but a lot that's different too. Mick's method is often applied to the harmony of the given piece and it dictates considerations of voicings.
    Pez's can but certainly is not limited to diatonicism, as a matter of fact, its greatest strength is in following and harmonizing a line that's NOT a coincident harmony with the key of the piece. So it creates a texture of the moment.

    More of this as we delve deeper.

    Note: This material is most relevant for players who've achieved some amount of proficiency and comfort in diatonic in-key chord work and are looking for sounds and approaches more akin to the language of arrangers and pianists. The goal is to use this to create/compose harmonically rich and sound textures in real time. So yeah, it's gonna mean a lot of work.
    Just to be clear.
    If you want it, it's not work. It's discovery that takes you to another level.