The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Anyone wanna discuss Pat Metheny style improvising? I played "bright size life" on a gig last weekend and realized that it's really hard to play in that style without resorting to altered dominant bop licks. On that whole album, he almost never uses any altered dominant or diminished scale language. It's very refreshing and surprisingly difficult to do.

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  3. #2

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    Yeah, I'm no expert, but when I play Metheny's tunes like that, they're really almost more like folk songs than "jazz tunes." I actually tend to play really inside, and I try to be careful with chromaticism. They're tough!

  4. #3

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    I wish I knew enough to be able to talk about Metheny's style. He's the guitarist I listen to and just put my guitar down and listen, realizing I can't even cop licks from this guy.

  5. #4

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    Metheny certainly has a distinctive way of forming melodies while improvising whilst keeping to the changes. I really love his playing and Bright Size Life may actually be my favourite record by his.

    I find his tunes hard to improvise over. Because a) you have to play the changes, even though they are folky/pop-like, and b) you really have to make melodies, otherwise you’ll just sound bad, really bad. I tried the bebop licks thing over his songs too and failed miserably.

    However I’ve read tons of interviews with Metheny and he always hammers on the importance of bebop language and how important it is to learn to navigate changes like the bebop guys do. He even said the first thing he does when he hires a new guy for his group is play a bunch of bebop/standard tunes with them to check whether they understand the language.

    So that brings me to the following: use bebop sensitivity and harmonic navigation as in connecting chord tones and spelling out the harmony in your lines, but still try to make lyrical melodies. I think that is the best I can do for now

  6. #5

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    I’d be the last person to describe myself as a Metheny expert but I would say from my investigations of his playing - mostly the early stuff - he is not someone I would associate with melodic minor language. Or dim for that matter. So the OP rings true for me.

    Metheny’s palette to me sounds derived heavily from the pentatonics, major scale and modes and triads in close and open position in particular.

    He also has a side line in surprisingly old school bop language which presumably comes from Wes. A lot of the chromaticism I hear in his playing is kind of beboppy. But this is not IMO the 'meat' of his playing, more the 'spice'.

    And then the guitaristic effects such as sideslipping out of the key by a semitone and chromatic planing licks. These I think he uses these as special effects to build tension etc.

    The note choices are often pretty straightforward. The phrasing is slippery. And a completely characteristic pick sound.

    Also fretting - Metheny has in common with Wes that he likes to play along the string rather than in position. He also seems to like low positions a lot, again like Wes.

    Continuous scale exercise and triads through BSL would be a good prep for soloing on the tune.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-15-2018 at 07:25 PM.

  7. #6

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    Oh one example of dim style language in his early playing might be the tritone triad pair lick he uses at the end of his solo on In France They Kiss on the Main Street from shadows and light (Joni Mitchell)

    (It is very much a lick though, to the point where it’s a cliche these days. I know a swing clarinettist who played that one all the time. I must have done hundreds of gigs with him... So I’d know that sound anywhere..... Barry Harris has a whole rant about it lol. I still use it though. Sorry Barry.)

    The solo is full of almost chuck berry/Charlie Christian style stuff but somehow sounds completely Pat.

    It ain’t the notes....

  8. #7

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    Last edited by christianm77; 03-15-2018 at 07:46 PM.

  9. #8

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    I saw him live around 1980 when he was playing the Bright Size Life material. One thing that has stuck with me that doesn't come across when listening to the album is his use of dynamics. He'd go from a whisper at times to a shout at other times and everything in between, the whole band did. This was done not only by playing at different dynamics but also by varying the instrumentation.

    The really quiet parts came across as so intimate.

    It was awesome. To me that is an important part of the Metheny sound.

  10. #9

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    @AmsterdamJazzist BTW listen to how chromatic & boppy Pat sounds in the lesson.... Perhaps he has the same issues with his tunes that we do lol.

  11. #10

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    I know I am in a decisive minority, but Pat Metheny’s playing does nothing for me. I just don’t hear any soul at all in his approach. Got that typical Berkeley thing going on. (Been wanting to say that for a long time.) Hope I didn’t offend anyone!


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  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimraygilliam
    I know I am in a decisive minority, but Pat Metheny’s playing does nothing for me. I just don’t hear any soul at all in his approach. Got that typical Berkeley thing going on. (Been wanting to say that for a long time.) Hope I didn’t offend anyone!


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    Perhaps you should start a thread discussing a player you prefer?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Perhaps you should start a thread discussing a player you prefer?
    You’re right! I am sorry that I hijacked the thread. My apologies. It’s just been on my mind lately.


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  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    @AmsterdamJazzist BTW listen to how chromatic & boppy Pat sounds in the lesson.... Perhaps he has the same issues with his tunes that we do lol.
    Haha yes I agree - especially in those old bootlegs of young Pat you can hear how boppy he really is, check out this ‘74 version of Stella by his:



    What is a constant factor however, is his flow, and overal smoothness: the lines really flow after another in any style he plays, be it the boppy things or his own stuff. Reminds me to work on this, better get back in the shed...

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterdamJazzist
    Haha yes I agree - especially in those old bootlegs of young Pat you can hear how boppy he really is, check out this ‘74 version of Stella by his:



    What is a constant factor however, is his flow, and overal smoothness: the lines really flow after another in any style he plays, be it the boppy things or his own stuff. Reminds me to work on this, better get back in the shed...
    It sounds like he uses a bit of judicious slurring in his playing, anyone looked into if and how he did this?

  16. #15

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    Metheny's career has now been long enough that it has its own eras. You might like one or two eras of his playing and not like other eras. How anyone can play as many gigs as he has every year for over 40 years and still maintain enthusiasm and freshness is something I don't understand very well.

    I like his early recordings, up to and including Offramp, and then very little of the PMG's output after that. But I really also like the various non-PMG trio and quartet recordings that he's done. And even the stuff I don't like very much often manages to have something interesting going on that at least catches my ear. But it's the Metheny-Mays-Gottlieb-Egan stuff that I like the most by far- the other PMG lineups don't sound like the other musicians are given a lot of autonomy. They reflect Pat's voice and submerse their own. Now that I think about it, the moden PMG is actually sort of a big band, isn't it? Hmm, I may have just found a way to more enjoy listening to that music.

    I think his playing still tends to bear the stamp of Gary Burton (which would make sense as the Gary Burton group was his favorite band at the time Metheny joined it).

    Addendum: wow that clip from '74. In addition to its own qualities, it makes me wish he'd dial back the delays and other effects to a minimum.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It sounds like he uses a bit of judicious slurring in his playing, anyone looked into if and how he did this?
    I remember reading somewhere that Pat spent his youth learning Wes stuff, with his thumb...that would explain plenty of sliding up and down the neck...

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimraygilliam
    You’re right! I am sorry that I hijacked the thread. My apologies. It’s just been on my mind lately.


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    I think it's okay to express this. It would be useful for you to drill down and ask what specifically is involved in the criticisms you had of PM's style. For the longest time, I just couldn't listen to PM, it did nothing for me. Then one afternoon I was driving through the country near my home and I think it was "Have You Heard" came on, and I was enchanted, hooked, engrossed. I didn't know who it was, and the station was playing 2-3 songs back-to-back so I had to wait a song or two before hearing it as Pat Metheny! I got that album, and realized that somehow, something in my musical sensibilities had shifted, and I was loving PM's music.

    What we don't like often can tell us as much as what we do like, and if someone gives specific things about PM's playing (or anyone's) that does not work for them, that is insightful and helpful at least to me. It's not like trashing the guy, it's just describing something that doesn't appeal to us.

  19. #18

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    I hear a lot of Ornette Coleman, and a lot of 'Footloose'-era Paul Bley.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I wish I knew enough to be able to talk about Metheny's style. He's the guitarist I listen to and just put my guitar down and listen, realizing I can't even cop licks from this guy.
    It was Pat Metheny that inspired me to learn jazz guitar. Through his music I discovered Wes Montgomery and Jim Hall and Gary Burton. (The Quartet Live album is one of my favorites.) You might find his earliest music (Pat Metheny Trio) a good entry point for study. For me, the doorway to his repertoire is Question & Answer. At this point, the best I can do is comp and play the melody. It's a rewarding experience to be able to do just that.
    Last edited by Bflat233; 03-16-2018 at 09:01 AM.

  21. #20

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    To me Pat's characteristic sound is he plays the 135 triads ... all over the neck connected in all inversions ...
    Over different pedal and moving bass notes

    Nice sound ... I'm trying to get the triads together myself

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Yeah, I'm no expert, but when I play Metheny's tunes like that, they're really almost more like folk songs than "jazz tunes." I actually tend to play really inside, and I try to be careful with chromaticism. They're tough!
    I've played Bright Size Life a bunch of times on gigs. I play it pretty inside as well. The written harmony is interesting enough, and putting a lot of hard bop type subs on it doesn't really improve it, IMO.

    Speaking of Metheny tunes: I called "Last Train Home" at rehearsal a couple of weeks ago. The drummer told me that playing that train rhythm all the way through had given him "semantic satiety"* for 16th notes.

    *(That's when you repeat a word over and over until it seems to lose its meaning.)

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Metheny's career has now been long enough that it has its own eras. You might like one or two eras of his playing and not like other eras. How anyone can play as many gigs as he has every year for over 40 years and still maintain enthusiasm and freshness is something I don't understand very well.
    I saw him a few months ago and for a guy in his 60s he has amazing enthusiasm (not to mention hair!). It was sort of a "greatist hits" show, so he was really tearing it up on the guitar.

    Well, he's got a huge audience so presumably he makes a good living, more or less complete artistic freedom, and the leverage to put together some of the best bands imaginable. I imagine that would keep my morale pretty high. ("Say, Joe, who do you want for your next gig? Would Christian McBride and Antonio Sanchez be ok?".)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimraygilliam
    I know I am in a decisive minority, but Pat Metheny’s playing does nothing for me. I just don’t hear any soul at all in his approach. Got that typical Berkeley thing going on. (Been wanting to say that for a long time.) Hope I didn’t offend anyone!
    I'm not offended.
    My view is a bit lateral. When I first encountered Metheny's music, never bothered to learn titles of songs and albums, I thought of it as of band named after it's leader, I did not even think about him as of guitar player*. I thought of the music as of some surprisingly good fusion**. I felt that it was all strictly arranged and orchestrated by Metheny him self. Down to individual cymbal hits. In my mind it was closer to Mike Oldfield than to Jazz.
    That is what I thought it was about.

    Also in the era of expansion of technical - speed - scale/ pattern playing and players, to me Metheny sounded rather different, but there, with regard to * I was not really into fusion, or Jazz, to really know about too many players***.


    *Basicaly, I never think about music I listen to in terms of how good players are, or how emotional, ... I just do not function that way. I can not distinguish players from the band they play in/ with/ for, overall.

    ** and *** At the time I hated fusion, now I just don't like it, like really do not like it, not from Jazz purist's point, but rather from my pop-punk-rock musical orientation. Thanks to Metheny, now I can even stand listening to Holdsworth (RIP) for a while.

  25. #24

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    The 'Question and Answer' CD is one of my favourites, not only does Pat play well, but Roy Haynes is just amazing throughout, superb 'in-your-face' drumming.

    I played this recently to a friend who is a jazz-lover but has never liked Metheny much, and he was so enthused he couldn't wait to get it.

  26. #25

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    I'm halfway through the book, Pat Metheny: The ECM Years. It addresses his music, moreso than the Richard Niles biography. For those that want a view into his influences and his evolution as a musician, this is the book to get. Though it touches places in musical theory that are beyond my abilities to use as a player, it's expanding my understanding of what he is doing, and how he arrived at these ideas.

    By the way, the entire ECM library was released on Apple Music, so if you have a subscription, you can listen to each of the albums and the tunes as you read through the book, which is laid out chronologically.