How do you make triads sound melodic?

**sungjy1231** · 10-06-2009, 01:01 AM

Hey everyone,
I purchased Intervallic Improvisation: The Modern Sound awhile ago. It teaches how to create lines using major, minor, diminished, augmented triads. Ive been messing around with it and cant find to make it sound melodic or interesting. My playing makes it seem obvious I am using pairs of triads. I cant find a way to connect triads to make it sound smooth. Anyone have any tips? Please I would prefer someone to post a video explaining this. I need to know how it is supposed to sound!

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-06-2009, 01:18 AM

I think you need to work with more that just triads. But to liven them up, add some note enclosures:

Dissonance, Resolution And Note Enclosure In Guitar Improvisation

**merseybeat** · 10-06-2009, 04:54 AM

Actually triads should sing out! ie a simple ii V I in C Major

II chord Dm7 (Play F Triad arp)
V chord G alt (Play E Major Triad)
I chord C Maj7 ( D triad Resolving to a C Maj7 chord tone)

This is a simple technique! Once your comfortable get wacky!

Regards

Eddie

**merseybeat** · 10-06-2009, 04:55 AM

oops!

**derek** · 10-06-2009, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Actually triads should sing out! ie a simple ii V I in C Major

II chord Dm7 (Play F Major Triad)
V chord G alt (Play E Major Triad)
I chord C Maj7 ( D triad Resolving to a C Maj7 chord tone)

This is a simple technique! Once your comfortable get wacky!

Regards

Eddie

Anything worth saying, is worth saying twice! I agree by using the base triads plus the upper extensions, you are going to sound very melodic. This is the basis for Garrison Fewell's book, Melodic Improvisation for Jazz Guitar.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-06-2009, 11:49 AM

But I don't think it's enough. Jazz is chromatic. That's the extra spice.

**Dookychase** · 10-06-2009, 01:29 PM

Try looking up Sid Jacobs on youtube. I have his dvd and if I remember right, he does something similar to what you're looking for.

He would play a triad and all its inversions up and down the neck. He would pick these kind of like an arpeggio.

Good luck.

**merseybeat** · 10-07-2009, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

But I don't think it's enough. Jazz is chromatic. That's the extra spice.

Very true! but its nice to have a skeleton in which to work across! I always find triads a nice "frame" to skate ideas around! For me, triads opened up the neck more!

As BDLH points out, chromatics is the spice! So try and sidestep your triads. Its also worth having a look at the HW diminished scale because as I mentioned in another thread this scale contains a "shed full" of familiar triads! all usable over a V alt!

Try this, for the V chords (say Galt) in our II V I, go up with a Bb Maj Triad and down an E Maj triad and then resolve chromatically (say Ab to G notes) for a CMaj7 tone! That E Maj triad give you the b9 which to my ears is so beautiful!

Hope this helps!

Eddie

PS I will try and post a lick or too when I get home!

**JohnW400** · 10-07-2009, 09:24 AM

Try playing the inversions , 351 513. Also use 'out' ones such as Bb Eb and C against A.

For example , on A7

C# E A down to G Bb Eb down to C# A Bb D F E C G C# A E

[CHORD] A/C#

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

[CHORD] Eb/G

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

[CHORD] A

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

[CHORD] Bb to C

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--1|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--1|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--1|---|---|4--|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

[CHORD] A/E

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-2-|--|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-3--|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

(SOmetimes I wish I had sibelius on my work pc)

**merseybeat** · 10-07-2009, 02:02 PM

Well done John!

Eddie

**noelma1117** · 10-07-2009, 03:38 PM

I recall the George Van Eps Guitar Method, a large off-yellow paper back book, had some very good introductory material on triads and harmonized scales using triads. It finished off with constructing your own melodic harmonized etudes. Wish I could locate my copy of the book, but I'd bet a lot of that material has been republished, updated, and extended in the Mel Bay series of books on the George Van Eps Method.

**derek** · 10-07-2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by noelma1117

I recall the George Van Eps Guitar Method, a large off-yellow paper back book, had some very good introductory material on triads and harmonized scales using triads. It finished off with constructing your own melodic harmonized etudes. Wish I could locate my copy of the book, but I'd bet a lot of that material has been republished, updated, and extended in the Mel Bay series of books on the George Van Eps Method.

Actually, if you are talking about Harmonic Mechanisms, it is out of print. The only source I know of that has his stuff is in an ebook found at djangobooks.com

**jseaberry** · 10-07-2009, 05:27 PM

I think this is what he's referring to:

https://shoppingcart.djangobooks.com...ps_method.html

**noelma1117** · 10-07-2009, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by jseaberry

I think this is what he's referring to:

https://shoppingcart.djangobooks.com...ps_method.html

Nope! The djangobooks item is not it ... unless it's just under a different cover. The one I'm referring to was a pale yellow cover with a pretty decent hand sketch of George Van Eps himself holding his guitar. Inside was pure content, written music examples, and absolutely no TAB. And, I'm sure it's out of print. It was a lot for me to chew on at the time, but I'd be willing to devour it now, if I could find it.

**sungjy1231** · 10-08-2009, 04:08 PM

Hey JohnW...
Are you suggesting that I should find major triads (doesnt have to be major..) that have outside notes and connect them a half step apart from each other? For example... Against an A7 alt... C# G# E# E G# B C Eb G F# A# C# (this has C#, E, Cmin, F#..) Im just finding triads that have outside notes but connecting them. Is this basically what you mean? I've tried this out but I still cant find a good way to make it sound cool... Is it about bout phrasing them properly? Idk this is a weird concept that I'm experimenting with.

**sungjy1231** · 10-08-2009, 04:11 PM

.. this is sort of the idea that I'm trying to understand. But, Jakes playing this without any accompaignment so I dont know if how it would work when theres a II V I playing in the background.

**sungjy1231** · 10-08-2009, 04:13 PM

i guess its all about making it resolve now that Im thinking more into it... blahhhhhhhh

**sungjy1231** · 10-08-2009, 04:15 PM

im thinking about this more.... and i think the main problem is that when i start playing one triad shape i have to rearrange my fingers for the next one and this shifting makes it sound rigid. i guess if i slide my finger... hammer-ons it would sound smoother... blahhhhh

**timscarey** · 10-08-2009, 04:17 PM

Triads are strongly harmonic in nature. 3rds in general actually. they must be mixed in with 2nds to create strong melodies. check this out....

1. Play a major triad (any inversion)
2. Move up or down a halfstep
3. play a different major triad in a different inversion
4.Move up or down a halfstep
5.Continue until you fell the need to resolve

this is a bergonzi thing, actually, I heard it came from transcribing later Coltrane improvisations.

Or just remember... Triads are awesome, and work anywhere at any time. Just resolve correctly and try to use 2nds to link them together, or else you are really just playing chords.. right?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-08-2009, 04:31 PM

Dumb terminology question. C-E-G is a triad. What's C-E-G-B? Please don't say a major seventh chord, because then the corresponding name for C-E-G would be major chord.

**sungjy1231** · 10-08-2009, 04:44 PM

Or just remember... Triads are awesome, and work anywhere at any time. Just resolve correctly and try to use 2nds to link them together, or else you are really just playing chords.. right?

so basically you can play any triad major minor aug dim with a mix of chord tones CHROMATICALLY (in your case a triad of the II... D F A for Cmajor)??? Do I have this right? it sounds so weird.

**JohnW400** · 10-08-2009, 04:47 PM

Any triad has the potential to work , just don't forget the inversions. Here' a " concept " thing I work on from time to time:

Part I. linear movement

Start on the root of a triad (say A) arpeggiate the triad. When you get to the 5, connect it to another triad via the 7th (ma7 or Dom7)

So lets say you want to do this chromatically untill you get back to A

A to Bb would be A C# E (G) Bb D F and end on A
A to B would be A C# E (G or G#) B D# F# A

Continue up. You'll find that After C you may have to start using inversions

A to C# A C# E (G) G# C# E# A

Not all the chords will work out 'nicely'.

The next step is to do this starting with the 3rd in the bass then the 5th. If your ambitious, try minors, then augmented. Then mix them up

To me this one is ongoing because there is really a lot of possibilities and it's just too time consuming to do more than just the majors or minors.

Part II superimposed triads

I like this one better. Same principal but you alternate the triads and do each inversion in one position so...

A to Bb

A C# E/ Bb D F/ C# E A/ D F Bb/ E A C#/ F Bb D etc.

also try starting on A/C# and A/E and do the same thing.

The thing to do with these is to vary direction. The above is up/up meaning upt the A then go down to the Bb and go up again. There are 4 directions. more if you change direction in a particular triad.

The 4 directions are

up/up
down/ down ( eca fdb)
up/ down (ace fdb)
down/up (eca bdf)

After you do these you'll definately have an ear for using them without sounding like triad.

I aslo stack 3 triads for the whole tone but I'll save that for another day

**sungjy1231** · 10-08-2009, 05:25 PM

is this stuff that we are talking about anything related to garzone's triadic chromatic approach?

**timscarey** · 10-08-2009, 06:10 PM

in my last post i said bergonzi when i ment garzone. yes, that is it in a nutshell. when i was doing my undergrad, this technique was very popular with me and others in my class. the thing that i noticed is that it is very difficult to pull this off without memorizing licks or patterns as you are not confined to a key. it was suggested to me that this technique be used amidst chord based melodic ideas so as to add color without completely abondoning the song you are playing. when done confidently, the sound is badass.

**bako** · 10-08-2009, 06:11 PM

How do you make triads sound melodic?

There are many ways to combine triads to move through varying levels of consonance and dissonance. Several have been presented here.

Perhaps even more important than the exact ordering of the notes is the rhythm. Think of a strong rhythmic phrase or borrow one from a song and apply it to the triadic material you are working with and it should help matters some.

I know when I am working on new harmonic ideas I often try it first by playing in steady 8ths or triplets or sixteenths. I think of this as laying it out on the table for observation and building finger memory but adding rhythm and accents are what begins to give it a shape.