-
Hi,
When i'm playing with BIAB I manage to sync and improv according to chords, looking at chords progress.
When playing with band or backtracks I have problem to find where i'm.
How do you do it?
Ronen
-
09-27-2009 04:31 AM
-
Hi Ronen
I can only speak for me but I always have a melody in my head! Its normally the vocal line (head whatever). Actually I always make a point of learning to play the melody as it always assists as a crutch!
Hope this helps
Eddie
-
learn to make phrases, four measures each, with some breathing space in the fourth measure--don't just run notes out.
don't look at the screen when you use the biab, count measures and listen to the harmony.
-
Hi Ronen
Got to agree with Merseybeat, here. I had the same problem until I realised that you have to know the tune before you can successfully improvise over it. By that I mean it has to become part of you. You can achieve this by playing the melody over and over until you have "internalised" it. Then you can improvise over it and, as MB said, it will be playing in your head while you improvise.
Put some time in on this and focus on playing just one melody repeatedly for half an hour and you'll very soon, reap the rewards. Unfortunately there are no short cuts. As Pierre says, "time on the instrument". Try it and let us know if it helps.
-
Its a rough task. Like musicalbodger said there are no short cuts.
There is some good news though - it gets easier the more tunes you know. Many of the standards have very similar forms and structures.
-
Learn the changes. Then comp along behind a commercially-available recording of it.
You should get the feel of it pretty quick that way.
-
You're getting lost because you haven't memorized the changes. Learn how to comp the song first, practice until you have the changes down cold. Then you won't get lost.
-
All of the above answers are good comments. I had a similar problem when I first got BIAB. I agree that you really need to know at least the melody of the song and knowledge of the chords will give you a lot of useful places to go when you are improvising. I solved my problem of getting lost by ONLY practising with BIAB without looking at the screen. If I need to have the chords, I print out a leadsheet from BIAB but after you quit looking at the changes going by on the computer, you will start to develop your own melodic ideas for each song. Biab is great and I use it on many gigs (small town here) when I can't find a bassist or drummer. Good luck with your music!
wiz
-
Thanks for great ideas.
I ussualy know the changes and melody well.
The problem apear when playing with bass/Drum. It's hard to follow up bassist when he play bass but also add small improv in between.
Some wrote that they are counting. I tried it but I found it hard and it impacts creativity.
Ronen
-
BiaB is great but you shouldnt get into the habit of looking at the screen while using it. You have to keep track of the measures in your head, it's an easy skill to learn if you train it but if you keep looking at the screen you wont.
-
All good responses.
One suggestion I would make is to learn the tune, as others have said, without any backing track.
Begin learning the chords from a lead sheet. Then try and comp without looking at the chart. Do the same with the melody, using a metronome through all of this.
Then when you start getting a feel for how you want to solo over the chords. Get the backing track out, but only when you have something to play. Don't just loop a backing track hoping you will magically play something great. It will save you alot of time if you create a few licks (or learn them from somewhere else) and play them against a metronome. Then break out the backing tracks for a jam.
Ultimately you want to be able to improvise against total silence and hear the chords and the rhytms in your head. This will force you to play the changes more accurately. But lets not get ahead of ourselves
Peace.
-
Don't worry about it! I think this is a very common problem amongst unexperienced jazzplayers. It happened to me a lot and still happens from time to time.
Follow all the advices given here and you will see that your ears, your thinking and your "playing-with-others-instinct" will devellop and get trained more and more!
Some tips I would like to add:
- practise also with play-along tracks like Aebersold's instead of BIAB, without using sheet music
- play with others as much as you can, training on the job works best in this case
- realise that playing is listening and your listening has to devellop just as much as your playing!
A very good exercise that I was told (and that I practise at the moment too) is to take a song and start improvising only using 8th notes in a very constant pace, no rythmic variations, only those 8th notes. Even if you get lost in the progression keep on playing those 8th notes (even if they are totally off!) while listening to the bass, drums and piano and try to get back to the progression and pick it up again. This will train your ability to play and listen at the same time a great deal!Last edited by Little Jay; 09-30-2009 at 10:10 AM.
-
ha! I see that my advice (as an excersize) is kind of the opposite.... but I found it works! I think after doing the 8th-notes thing your playing should devellop into what randalljazz advices......
Originally Posted by randalljazz
Oh and another thing that came to mind: make sure you hear everybody well enough and make sure your guitar is not too loud. If you hear yourself too loud you also tend to run out of sync with the others, eventually getting lost in the progression.
-
This is the technique I've been using while learning single-note soloing. It works really well as it also maxmises the value you are getting out of practicing. There are no 'wasted' spaces where you haven't been practicing some new lick or cell. Originally Posted by Little Jay
However, once I get the hang of the single-note thing, I will start 'adding silence', liberally.
-
I was reminded by Little Jay, and his suggestion of using 8th notes with no rythmic variation of an article I read in GuitarOne a while back that had an interview with John and Bucky Pizzarelli (sp?).
He said that when he leads clinics he tells his students to start using only WHOLE notes. Then quaters (not unlike a walking bass), then eigths, then adding rythmic varations. A rather convoluded approach I think, esspecially with the whole notes, but it does give one a real taste of the changes. Bucky is a great guitar player, if he says it works, it must work.
It might be worth a try?
-
I always try to keep track of what chord is going by in the song as I improvise. Try taking a song and practicing improvising over it in slow motion. Slow it WAY down and improvise in slow motion. Maybe try creating a solo in advance that gives you lots of hints/reminders about what chords are going by (for example, create a very basic solo that is made up only of the root, 3rd, and 5th of each chord going by). Once you get the hang of what chords are happening, try to gradually made the solo more interesting.
Slow motion is a BIG help to me in many aspects of guitar playing.
-
One thing that can be gained by playing whole notes through songform is that it creates a guide melody and from there we can create lines to connect these notes. Anything that sounds good in whole notes will make an excellent guide melody. Originally Posted by sc06yl
-
one thing, if you cant sing it dont play it. it works for me.
Last edited by blackwingchai; 10-01-2009 at 09:07 PM.
-
It's been said a few times, but I would recommend memorizing tunes at first. Pick a few, and as far as memorizing, play 4 bars, and then turn the music around and play those same 4 bars. Play the next 4 with music, then turn it around and play the 1st 8. Do this, always starting from the beginning when you play it from memory. As with anything, this gets easier with time and practice. Also, as far as help with counting, a lot of jazz tunes are 32-bar forms that follow an A-A-B-A format. If you don't know what that means, there's 8 bars of something, that 8 bars repeats, there's a different section (both melodically and harmonically) and then a repeat of the 1st section. Hope that helps.
-
Guys,
Thanks, indeed great ideas to deal with it.
Already started with whole note (Guided tones and 8 notes and it helps.
Looking at others it looks so simple but for me - so much work!
Thanks
Ronen
-
If you know the melody, then you just keep it playing in your head. You don't have to count, just focus and concentrate. Maybe the bass and drums don't know where they areThe problem apear when playing with bass/Drum. It's hard to follow up bassist when he play bass but also add small improv in between.
Some wrote that they are counting. I tried it but I found it hard and it impacts creativity.
. But if you stick with the melody in your head, that you know is right, what can go wrong? Have faith and believe in yourself.
-
Hi Ronen...
same thing happens to me...i play the head then when its time to improvise i get lost and i dont know when to come back to the head. I have read some of the posts here that say memorize the song and keep the melody in your head all the time, but the thing is if i keep the melody in my head how will i focus on the improvisation??...somebody once told me to count the bars as you are playing but i some how cant seem to concentrate doing that...can anyone suggest how to go about doing this?...
cheers!...
-
HD280 — You misunderstand about keeping the melody in your head. What I said in an earlier reply is that you practice playing the melody over and over until you have internalised it. It's then playing in your head without you having to think about it. You know automatically where you are in the tune because it's become part of you. You're then free to focus on improvising.I have read some of the posts here that say memorize the song and keep the melody in your head all the time, but the thing is if i keep the melody in my head how will i focus on the improvisation??
Ronen — it's so much work for everyone. Remember, you can never know what's going on in their heads, they may be as confused and frustrated as you.
-
Hi might I add a suggestion, and this works for every tune from now on!
For this example I will use Autumn Leaves in G
First of all relax, Strum an Amin7 and scat a melody over it using only your tonsils!
Strum a D7 alt and do the same!
G Maj7 (The same) etc.
Next try to play what you sang (SLOWLY). You can let the first bar go (For now) and start your inprov on beat 2 of each bar!
My point here is if you can’t sing an improvised melody on the fly then it’s not in your head to start with! If this is the case then all you have is a bunch of autonomic mechanical movements! To quote Joe Pass “This is not music”.
So from now on when working out a tune strum the chord on Beat 1 of the bar and try and improv a melody over beats 2,3 & 4 then do the same for the next chord change.
In no time at all this will become second nature and you will find a natural ability to keep track of most tunes!
Muscle memory must be learnt but if it becomes autonomic then it’s a big problem!
Regards
Eddie
-
A lot of good ideas here. Personally, the key for me to really internalize the changes and the melody to a tune is just plain repetition. Take the tune, try to mechanically memorize the changes at first by playing the chords over and over with a metronone or with one of the classic recordings. If you use backing tracks or BIAB, you really have to FORCE yourself to stop depending on the visual aspect. It's the same problem that often still arises for me with certain tunes I think I know well enough and then I find I have to go searching in that damned Real Book or whatever. The more you play and listen to a tune, the more the chords/melody will get into your aural memory. Spend enough time on just that one tune though!!
Also, as someone mentioned above, when you DO get lost, do not panic and stop playing! Keep playing and try to listen to things that signal a new chorus or a B section, for example. And, finally, the more tunes you know, the easier it seems to get with memorizing other changes. This is not true for melodies, but many, many jazz standards are based on the same exact changes: rhythm changes, blues, minor blues, etc.. and many others have similar chord formulas like turnarounds, etc..
Reply With Quote
Looking for a "jazz box"
Today, 09:57 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos