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Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
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06-07-2017 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
David
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
We could also comment on the ways we see the phrase (I see a motif here, etc) and in this micro process we develop a usable familiarity with the tools of the trade.
If one person comes to include a melodic sequence in their playing when they would've usually played a tired scale passage, then THAT's exciting!
This should also help strategise logical fingerings that swing, by hearing and practicing in phrases
Thats my hope
David
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So that lick over the G7 is pretty funky. Huh? Interested in how one analyzes such things. I don't really don't know.
Is it an arpeggiated embellishment of a basic descending chromatic to D? E-Eb-D-B-G is easy to grasp. Is it like a variation of that? Chromatic resolution delayed by chord tones? I know there are nerd chord scale analyses possible as well.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 06-07-2017 at 10:34 PM.
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Just so I know my ears aren't that terrible, the YouTube video is in Eb not C... right? Everything he is playing is actually a minor third above what is scored. Or am I that far off?
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Then I thought about it. If someone wants to learn it as a piece, it's not for me to say that's not worth the time, but I'll be focusing on an organic approach that models actual soloing processes.
Anyway, here's concert with TAB.
David
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If I had to vote I'm fine with the concert c version. I also am interested in the language aspect of this as opposed to a performance view. I plan to use these pieces to understand their construction as a method for gaining melodic sensibility in my own improvisations. My goal is to elevate my playing from "this scale works over these changes" to something more meaningful that reflects my understanding of the harmony involved in any set of changes.
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Originally Posted by nick1994
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Learning to read TAB may be easier than learning standard notation, but it still is learning to read music. It takes effort, effort I always felt I would rather use learning standard notation. So I don't read TAB, and like you find it distracting.
Likewise, I am not interested in learning the whole etude as a set piece. The Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes study group was doing that, and after learning five separate 32 bar etudes i lost patience and had to drop out.
All that said, I still like the score to match the example. I like playing a bar or two, hearing him play a bar or two and reading the score. If the score is transposed by a third, it requires one more step of mental gymnastics. That distracts from what I am trying to do, which is challenging enough.
So thanks for posting the score that matches the key he is actually playing the example in.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I believe I've seen that augmented triad in bebop heads, like Donna Lee.
edit to add: oops, I see Nick1994 said the same thing earlier in the thread. I like the G aug followed by G minor, though.Last edited by dingusmingus; 06-08-2017 at 01:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
I guess the interesting thing to me is that the line is compact. One altered note. It's not a complete step out to the altered scale (containing all the altered notes mentioned above) but a simple use of one of those notes that says enough by itself. It's brief and shows restraint. I like that because my tendency is throw every thing I've got at a chord. ????
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Measure by measure learning is not my way either. I'm always trying to get to "What were you thinking when that beautiful line appeared out of nowhere?! Can I ever get to that place on my own?"
David
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From that idea I made a couple of my own ... One altered note in the line.
And now my practice session is over...off to the real world..
Hmmm....don't know how to rotate that. Sorry about thatLast edited by Michael Kaye; 06-08-2017 at 01:30 PM.
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I'm seeing/hearing it the same as some others have mentioned:
- starting off with a Cmaj sound, with that last C - A in the first measure which could be seen as going to the 6th of C (a major sound) or anticipating the Dm
- Dm heading to Gaug
- returning to C in the 3rd measure, but this time a bluesy Cdom (C9) sound. I recognise that slip from the b7 to the 6 as a Raney thing, which probably means it's a Parker thing?
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What does everyone think of the thought process behind that G augmented triad? Eventually I'd imagine a skilled soloist is thinking of the sound it creates, rather than thinking "i will play a g augmented triad here." Is there something special about the #5 sound in the context of a blues that makes it a better choice than moving to one of the other altered notes? (I'm not suggesting there's a right answer here, just interested in what you think or like.) I played the same lick with different altered notes in place of the #5 but I think there's something special sounding about moving a half step down from the 6 to the #5 that makes it sound especially bluesy.
Last edited by wzpgsr; 06-09-2017 at 12:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Just an after thought: I think my two examples using the b5 and the b9 bring my phrase in to a diminished flavor which is why they sound not quite "right" in that context.Last edited by Michael Kaye; 06-09-2017 at 03:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
I actually think he WAS thinking Gaug. The preceding bars all seem to be triad based with passing tones. C up, C down, D (scalar) up, Gaug down. That seems very much his thinking in these few bars.
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I thought it'd be kind of interesting to talk about process when we're soloing and the role of phrases and devices. I'm always curious to know "What are you thinking or what drives your decision to play what you play?" and I mean that from ALL of you, from the beginner to the seasoned soloist. It's an interesting question because our notes are the end product of a compositional process; one that might be informed by our discussions/observations here.
So what do you think of when the void of silence meets the movements of your fingers?
Sometimes I listen to players and I hear "scales and arpeggios". Cool- but I'm waiting for the idea.
Sometimes I hear thinking a lot about what I was practicing. Keep at it; it's going to come together. -but it's not there yet.
Sometimes I hear the wandering struggle to keep the space filled with notes. This is uncomfortable and yet full of untapped potential.
Sometimes I hear a very personal and intentional blending of the familiar and the unexpected, a fresh and thoughtful idea with each phrase and I think YES!
I was looking at the first passage, from the point of a composer's phrase. Strong opening phrase even before the first beat. Followed by a thoughtful pause in bar one. That ends with with a completed thought, concise and strong use of two notes, then the bar ends with another pickup note to bar 2, the 5th of D leading to the tonic. That's a really nice feeling of propulsion into a new change. Cool. That scale run leads right up to the next change, again before the 3rd beat. That G7, I kinda hear an answer to the ascending phrase of the D-7 answered by a bluesy phrase where that G is actually part of a blues descending line. It just feels like a bluesy response to a set up to me; and the resolution to the G root.
The last bar of the phrase is a nice dramatic end to the phrase through the use of use of chromatic passing notes and a sequenced series of thirds to a chord tone.
That's the notes, (and just my take) but let's put ourselves into the driver's seat and look at C7 D-7 G7 C7. It's the I chord and when we see that in a blues, what do we see? and what can this etude give us that we wouldn't have thought of ourselves off the bat? And how might we practice this?
Well a few things that I like:
The use of pickup notes to set up tonality in the next bar. This takes planning and ear comfort to know that sound, because if you're waiting for the tonal starting gun at the bar line, you'll never get that "jump". I've looped changes and then started to develop a vocabulary of pickup phrases that feed into chord tones. It really makes a nice energy.
Use of space. Waiting until the 2nd or even longer, to begin a phrase. Phrases can begin in many ways. Explore the impact of placing your opening in different parts of a measure.
Ascending and descending lines. Bar 3 steps up and leaps down. That feels like running up a hill and sliding down. There's a rush from a well set up run. In this case, even more to my ear because it sounds blusey.
Introducing tension through a phrase. This one begins with space and diatonic ideas and evolves into an element of surprise in the final C7 measure. Chromatics are a nice way to introduce the unexpected. Too often they're used as a justification of "What do I do now?" or "oops, didn't mean that... oh yeah, that's a chromatic... I meant that!" but used with intention, a break from the expected, through chromatics of sequenced notes breaking up a scale... that can make a dramatic end of a phrase.
Phrases can end with long notes, short notes, the unexpected... but personally, I don't like to crowd a good idea by rushing into a new phrase, or playing too much to "fill up the space". Look at the next bar after our phrase. Rest. I find that one of the hardest things for a player to do is to use space/silence, 'cuz you're a PLAYER and that's not PLAYING, right? Silence is part of your vocabulary. How can you use it?
Those are some semi-random thoughts after the first phrase. Play around with and invent a new thought process, and see how it sounds.
Just a random two cents-
David
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Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Im also noticing that my old habits seem to include the thought : 'scale-scale-scale-arpeggio', 'scale scale scale scale-arpeggio-scale scale', whereas, I'm noticing a much deeper and more thoughtful rhythm is happening in these phrases which I'm finding is more interesting and adding a 3rd dimension to the actual notes. I can't think of a better way to describe it.
Some of these observations are coming from skipping ahead and seeing multiple ideas linked together, admittedly.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
For some days now I am working through Halsted Street Blues, and the rests are like life saving islands in the brawly flow of eighth notes. I am always happy to reach one right before I'm going to drown.
Robert
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Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
So yes, if you're learning to solo, spend a little time mastering the short, medium and long phrase. All different animals. Listen to Sonny Rollins. Listen to Joe Henderson. Listen to good drummers.
I'll address rhythm as I look at the next couple of phrases. I'm so glad you're hearing this. Polish your sense of swing too; there are many dialects of swing. Find an appropriate one for your notes and perfect it.
You'll see-
David
RIP Nick Gravenites
Today, 05:48 PM in The Players