Playing Outside over Jazz/Rock style

[guitarplayer007]

Anyone have a way of thinking when playing to create kool outside sounds like playing in theStyle of Larry Carlton. Sometimes i'll just play in key and then shoift a 1/2 step and play something similar and it of course sounds a littlr outside. But there must be a way of thing to create these sounds i'm looking for. I know i can play tritone subs and that can sound somewhat outside, but i'm looking for much more.
Thanks
Ken

[fep]

I know of several things that Larry will do when he goes outside. I believe most of what he does is part of the jazz vocabulary.

Here's a big one that he use to do a lot. He calls it the super arpeggio... it's made up of alternating major and minor thirds. To find it start on a root or third or 5th or 7th chord tone, go up to the next chord tone (which will be a major or minor third) and then continue to build an arpeggio from there.

For example, G7, pick a chord tone, let's say B. That's a min 3rd so the formula of alternating maj and min 3rds would be B D F# A C# E G# etc.

That ones pretty out there for a G7 (you may like it though) so let's try starting on D instead... D F A C E G B D#; that ones pretty cool.

How about for Gmaj7. Let's try starting on the root: G B D F# A C# E G#, very cool.

As Larry explains, he doesn't necessarily just run these 'super' arpeggios up and down, often times he'll just pick a piece of one and use that as his imaginary chord tones and make up phrases around those. And the pieces are just simple triads and we all have a vocabulary of licks that work around simple triads.

So over the Gmaj7 example, he might play some F#m stuff (the F# A C# of that arp) or A maj stuff or C#m stuff or E maj etc.

I think why it works so well when he does it is he finds good patterns to go into the outside stuff and back out of the outside stuff.

I have theory that if you go outside in an organized way then it can sound right. Larry can be playing a G# note over a Gmaj7 chord and it can almost sound consonant when he approaches it with the super arp.

[guitarplayer007]

Ok that sounds like a good start, i will try it tonight when i get home from work. I purchased a book on outside playing, but i want to know the reason it worksa as well, not just learn licks. If you have anymore please post them or you can email me at guitarplayer33_1999@yahoo.com
Thanks again
Ken

[derek]

This question kind of took me aback when you mention Carlton. He is a very inside player imo. However, outside playing is really a matter of taste and experience imo. Larry refers to himself as a wanna be jazzer, and mixes enough jazz phrases to his rock vocabulary to make it interesting to me. He is one of my favs.

Another in a similar vein is Robben Ford. Robben has done more straight ahead jazz than Larry, and played for a time with Miles. Robben has a few instructional vids out where he discusses how he uses the diminished scale, among others, to get some of his outside playing in the blues.

Jimmy Herring is a guy you should check out if you haven't. He is one of the top jam band guys, and put out a solo disc this past year that is fantastic. He also mixes in some side slipping with lydian dominant, and a healthy use of the diminished scale to get some of those tones you speak of.

Here is a pretty cool book with some far out lines in it. My only complaint is, he doesn't spend any time discussing the theory of it, so you have to suss it out yourself to apply in other areas. I use a few of these. Good luck.

Music Dispatch

[guitarplayer007]

Thanks for your reply, although i know Larry plays alot of rock/jazz stuff...i have listened enough to hear him go to places you don't expect him to go. Maybe these moves are not way outside, but they sure are'nt expected. I do believe i actually have that book you posted. I just want something that also explains the thinking i guess.
Thanks again
Ken

[Dookychase]

Guitarplayer, try Don Mock's dvd The Blues from Rock to Jazz. Has some great ideas on soloing with alot of examples.

Well worth the money.

[guitarplayer007]

Thx Dooky

[oleo20]

dude just listen to come brecker and youll find some awesome outside playing - he plays really great on mccoy tyners infinity album - theres a stonking version of impressions on there and brecker just rips it to pieces as does mccoy.

i learnt just recently that you can make anything sound cool be it inside or outside by playing it with the right articulation! try it man its inspiring!

one thing i do when playing outside is for example if im playing on a min7 something modal fur instance take Dmin7 start fiddling round with Dminmaj7 harmony over the top of it - basically just slip the major 7th in there occasionally to add a bit of spice!and maybe slip up a semitone up to Ebmin7!also if you hit some quartal cells and side slip em up a bit they sound pretty awesome (very much in the style of a piano player) listen to mccoy or calderaazzo or kenny kirkland or mehldau - those guys are on it!they play outside really great man!

[ZzaJMarc]

dude just listen to come brecker and youll find some awesome outside playing - he plays really great on mccoy tyners infinity album - theres a stonking version of impressions on there and brecker just rips it to pieces as does mccoy.

i learnt just recently that you can make anything sound cool be it inside or outside by playing it with the right articulation! try it man its inspiring!

one thing i do when playing outside is for example if im playing on a min7 something modal fur instance take Dmin7 start fiddling round with Dminmaj7 harmony over the top of it - basically just slip the major 7th in there occasionally to add a bit of spice!and maybe slip up a semitone up to Ebmin7!also if you hit some quartal cells and side slip em up a bit they sound pretty awesome (very much in the style of a piano player) listen to mccoy or calderaazzo or kenny kirkland or mehldau - those guys are on it!they play outside really great man!

Yes really, oleo has good points, splip it up a semitone under also, or a triton away. It really sounds cool. If i remember well in breckers solo hes doing a pattern a minor third away and comes back to dmin by semitones, so F dorians, E dorian, Eb Dorian, D dorian.

[fep]

This question kind of took me aback when you mention Carlton. He is a very inside player imo.

Derek, I'm guessing you didn't listen to him play live around 1978 plus or minus 5 years. And you probably haven't heard his Last Nite album...

[derek]

I have this video. This performance is on his first instructional recording. He sounds like he is responding to the extended chords the keyboardist is laying down. I have lots of Carlton stuff, but not the disc you mentioned.

Even with this performance, he steps into altered territory, but resolves very melodically pretty quickly. I think his sense of melody is pretty strong. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make, but thanks for posting this. I haven't seen it in a couple of years or more.

[Joe Dalton]

There is more and more outside playing in rock, I find it moderatly succesfull myself. But honestly, even with the greats, I find the outside playing works around 10% of the time, the other times I don't like it.

[Jazzaluk]

There is more and more outside playing in rock, I find it moderatly succesfull myself. But honestly, even with the greats, I find the outside playing works around 10% of the time, the other times I don't like it.

I agree with Joe... to me...too much "outside" playiing starts sounding like bad inside playing. Outside phrases are best served as a side dish, not the main course. When to employ them is much more important than how often.

[Luan]

Over a dorian vamp, treat it like a mixolydian. It doesn't even sound outside at all for some reason.

[fep]

I have this video. This performance is on his first instructional recording. He sounds like he is responding to the extended chords the keyboardist is laying down. I have lots of Carlton stuff, but not the disc you mentioned.

Even with this performance, he steps into altered territory, but resolves very melodically pretty quickly. I think his sense of melody is pretty strong. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make, but thanks for posting this. I haven't seen it in a couple of years or more.

Hi Derek,

I was just trying to point out that Larry does play outside sometimes. It appears you had already heard this.

For me Larry's outside playing is about as outside as I like to listen too. That is why I always liked Larry's outside playing, he doesn't over do it for my tastes.

And I believe it is much more than playing over the extensions the keyboard player is playing. In that video (I use to have it also), Larry would have Terry hold a Dm chord why he'd play over different triads F, Am, C, Em, G (if I'm recalling correctly). Or Eb triad over a G7 chord is another one I recall him using as an example. Larry was the one that was doing the extensions.

I suppose we could transcribe what he plays in that video, but I'm too lazy at the moment.

[derek]

Hi Derek,

I was just trying to point out that Larry does play outside sometimes. It appears you had already heard this.

For me Larry's outside playing is about as outside as I like to listen too. That is why I always liked Larry's outside playing, he doesn't over do it for my tastes.

And I believe it is much more than playing over the extensions the keyboard player is playing. In that video (I use to have it also), Larry would have Terry hold a Dm chord why he'd play over different triads F, Am, C, Em, G (if I'm recalling correctly). Or Eb triad over a G7 chord is another one I recall him using as an example. Larry was the one that was doing the extensions.

I suppose we could transcribe what he plays in that video, but I'm too lazy at the moment.

I agree. Larry is one of the tastiest players around, and even when he steps outside, he is able to make it sound like it somehow fits.