Playing way 'outside' on purpose

**Tom Karol** · 08-25-2009, 09:57 AM

Lately, in an attempt to break out of my standard melodic patterns, I've been fooling around with trying to play lines that make no scalar or harmonic sense: Chromatic movement followed by weird seemingly non-diatonic leaps ... stuff like that. I'm not sure if this exercise is accomplishing anything, but it's a lot of fun! Anyone else ever do this, or am I just getting really weird in my old age?

**reventlov** · 08-25-2009, 10:15 AM

"it's a lot of fun! Anyone else ever do this, or am I just getting really weird in my old age?"

Yes it's a lot of fun, yes lots of folks do/have done this. As to whether you're getting really weird - if you are, you're not alone!

Try doing it (if you haven't done so already) with just bass and drums accompaniment - BIAB is great for this. Don't forget to play 'inside' occasionally at key points of the sequence though, it makes the outside stuff more effective.

Or...if that isn't outside enough for you ...check out

- you may like it, you may not BUT you won't worry too much about being weird after you hear it. While you're there, have a listen to his version of 'Laura'.....it's...well....different.

**Jazzaluk** · 08-25-2009, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by reventlov;45998
Or...if that isn't outside enough for you ...check out [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5raW49kQM"

YouTube - Derek Bailey[/URL] - you may like it, you may not BUT you won't worry too much about being weird after you hear it.

Sounds like my cat playing the piano. (and she didn't have a single lesson!!)

**franco6719** · 08-25-2009, 01:53 PM

I call BULLSHIT!! Who is this Bailey fellow anyway? This is the first I have ever heard of such a charlatan. This man was actually paid and admired for this sort of random, scratching thing that I did when I was 11 years old? Well, maybe I'll go back to that then and become famous. WT??

**franco6719** · 08-25-2009, 02:15 PM

Now, wait a minute now. On second thought, this guy should be given some credit for the sheer audacity and the absolute indifference to concerns about "the audience". In fact, it's the audience I don't get!

**mr. beaumont** · 08-25-2009, 02:30 PM

sometimes, a simple interesting visual pattern can make for some neat outside sounds. howard roberts would often talk about this...

the key to playing out is getting back in, of course.

and derek bailey's a lot to take, but there's some genius in there. he was attempting "non-idiomatic improvisation," and i think he got as close as anybody.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-25-2009, 02:40 PM

It reminds me of a talk and concert I went once to, given byIannis Xenakis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The talk went right over my head -- all about mathematics. And the music was electronic. One piece sounded exactly like a dumpster, full of garbage, being turned over and over. Cool.

**Jazzaluk** · 08-25-2009, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

and derek bailey's a lot to take, but there's some genius in there. he was attempting "non-idiomatic improvisation," and i think he got as close as anybody.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I didn't give my cat enough credit.

**Goofsus4** · 08-25-2009, 04:00 PM

Yes, I do what you describe all the time. I've stumbled onto some interesting lines that way. I will often just play a crazy line like that, then if any of it sounded good, I try to play it again, but shift some tones around to narrow the line down so that it is a bit more inside yet retains whatever hip sounding tones that got me interested originally. It's like when an artist is painting - sometimes just letting yourself go and splashing paint, scoring the paper, letting colors bleed into each other with abandon produces marvelous effects. You learn from what enhances the work and try to learn how to acheive the effect intentionally next time. If it sucks, well, you know what doesn't work and that's useful too. Music is such a wonderful artistic medium for experimentation - it doesn't cost you anything. Experimentation and risk taking in other art forms often can mean compromising many hours of work and wasting expensive materials and ruining promising efforts. Not so in music - you just play it again!

**bkdavidson** · 08-26-2009, 01:16 AM

So Derek Bailey. . . . wow. . . . . . There goes five minutes and forty-five seconds that I'll never get back. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. At least, that's my humble opinion. Takes me back to the Theory IV days in college. I still refuse to accept that that kind of stuff (aleotoric music and/or serialism, etc.) is actually music and believe it to simply be overly complicated math problems. Again, just my humble opinion.

**Stackabones** · 08-26-2009, 11:47 PM

From the Aeneid ...

It is easy to go down into Hell;
Night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide;
But to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air -
There's the rub, the task.

I think it relates to going outside and trying to get back in. Most players aren't Aeneas.

**franco6719** · 08-27-2009, 04:00 AM

Maybe not. But I, for one, have certainly been down into hell and come back......over and over again.

**timscarey** · 08-29-2009, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by franco6719

I call BULLSHIT!! Who is this Bailey fellow anyway? This is the first I have ever heard of such a charlatan. This man was actually paid and admired for this sort of random, scratching thing that I did when I was 11 years old? Well, maybe I'll go back to that then and become famous. WT??

Listen to him play "Laura".

**franco6719** · 08-30-2009, 03:34 AM

Yes, I heard that one. He actually plays some of the harmonies with interesting jazz voicings, etc.. But he sort of hammers on the chords and then moves around to some of that arbitrary "non-idiomatic" stuff. It seems that he actually knows the tune but he doesn't WANT to sound like he can actually play the instrument. Well, to each his own.

**ES350** · 08-31-2009, 08:16 PM

He played straight-ahead jazz in England in the early-mid 60's...Gavin Bryars played bass with him...

**franco6719** · 09-01-2009, 03:47 AM

Well, he became a little bit unwell, to put it kindly then, IMO.

**blkjazz** · 09-02-2009, 12:14 PM

Well.....at least it ain't rap.....

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 09-02-2009, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by blkjazz

Well.....at least it ain't rap.....

I just had this mental image of me waiting at a traffic light. A car pulls up, with rap music pumping. I crank the Derek Bailey! "Turn that down man, it's too aleatoric!"

**NSJ** · 09-02-2009, 12:29 PM

I bought Derek Bailey's book on improvisation. On my list of do do's. He also narrated an entire BBC series or something on improvisation across cultures. I would have loved to have seen it. I think you can find it on the net, somewhere.

I managed to catch Derek live, towards the end of his life, at Columbia College in Chicago. He played with a "laptopist". Let's just say it wasn't my cup of tea. I had no idea what he was doing, honestly. It seemed utterly random to me. Totally free expression, devoid of any regular harmonic, melodic and rhythmic framework.

It would be interesting to a trajectory of his career, to gage his, for lack of better words, *Development* from straight-ahead to avant-whateveritwas.

**vsaumarez** · 09-03-2009, 02:41 AM

Derek Bailey aside, playing weird stuff or outside, is what it's often all about. The chromatic scale doesn't count because most of the notes are inside, but paying chromatically, ie being able to use any note over any chord is fun. The most outsice scale IMO is the wholetone, because it very quickly sets up dissonance. However, none of works (unless your D Bailey) unless its played in some sort of context. A lot of people think avant-garde jazz is just messing around, but like other forms of jazz it also has a language.

**franco6719** · 09-03-2009, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I just had this mental image of me waiting at a traffic light. A car pulls up, with rap music pumping. I crank the Derek Bailey! "Turn that down man, it's too aleatoric!"

+2

**blkjazz** · 09-03-2009, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by vsaumarez

Derek Bailey aside, playing weird stuff or outside, is what it's often all about. The chromatic scale doesn't count because most of the notes are inside, but paying chromatically, ie being able to use any note over any chord is fun. The most outsice scale IMO is the wholetone, because it very quickly sets up dissonance. However, none of works (unless your D Bailey) unless its played in some sort of context. A lot of people think avant-garde jazz is just messing around, but like other forms of jazz it also has a language.

I agree. Sonny Sharrock, Archie Shepp, Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, all seem to kinda speak the same language. There is context.

**mangotango** · 09-04-2009, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

From the Aeneid ...

It is easy to go down into Hell;
Night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide;
But to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air -
There's the rub, the task.

I think it relates to going outside and trying to get back in. Most players aren't Aeneas.

Aenough, already!

I was in a band once with a piano player called Peter Urpeth who went on to play totally improvised gigs with Derek Bailey. Part of the gig involved "prepared" instruments - in this case, stuff like putting slivers of wood inbetween the piano strings to achieve different sounds. Not too far different from Lionel Loueke putting paper between his guitar strings to sound like African instruments, I guess. But I didn't care too much for the results that they achieved.

I will frequently play something totally random on certain tunes, just to do something unexpected. It works, in context, though it did get me a comment from the bassist; "You know, you only look like John Scofield"...... (both

and

!!!)

**merseybeat** · 09-04-2009, 04:02 PM

There is actually some science to this! I believe it is from a theory called a "12 tone row" ... I studied a lesson on this a while back and basically as long as the phrase resolves after a 12 (or a multilple of 12) notes you can play what any random chaos you can find.

Try google "12 tone row"

Eddie

**gremboul** · 09-05-2009, 02:24 AM

The Derek Baily vids I saw on youtube sound alot like the movie sountrack of a bizarre movie...creating tension with dissonance and unresolved chords. Personally, I use the "playing outside" thing sparingly and return home in a timely fashion so the listener can hopefully appreciate the contrast. That being said, Mr. Baily's music can offer some ideas and I enjoyed his rhythmic approach as well.