The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Stackabones
    From the Aeneid ...

    It is easy to go down into Hell;
    Night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide;
    But to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air -
    There's the rub, the task.

    I think it relates to going outside and trying to get back in. Most players aren't Aeneas.

    That is right on the money.That's why I love my hero(es) so much.A true master can take you way out to the darkest depths of your mind and then gently bring you back home.While some very skilled yet less experienced players can leave you hanging in some weird places.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Fingers
    That is right on the money.That's why I love my hero(es) so much.A true master can take you way out to the darkest depths of your mind and then gently bring you back home.While some very skilled yet less experienced players can leave you hanging in some weird places.
    This is in my opinion is a very interesting discussion. Any musical ideas/thoughts are welcome. Isn't going back home a matter of a lick or measure that gets you back to the tonic or even the dominant? Until I saw that Baily video, my own application of this would be for a lick that can be repeated here and there or a max of 3 measures. What I really like about Baily is the nice groove he would add when going outside (I felt as though it kept me engaged and emphasized rhythm to give the listener a sense of "inside"). I feel that playing outside has more value when the contrast of playing within the song structure is more frequent. In a less extreme fashion, I also use modes to achieve this, for example playing a piece in Dorian and then venturing into a couple of measures in Phrygian, and perhaps sneaking in a couple of #9 chords. Also (and I find this highly dissonant) sometimes to play a lead a chromatic step higher than the tonal center (a tune in C major with a lick or two in C#). Before my ramblings get too long, it seems to me that the food on the table and the spice to create contrast and flavor should be discerned...
    Last edited by gremboul; 09-05-2009 at 04:07 PM.

  4. #28

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    The Derek Bailey book is a good one---I enjoyed his approach to it, a fresh one. He may say some things in there that aren't everybody's cup of tea, but he wasn't a charlatan...

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by gremboul
    The Derek Baily vids I saw on youtube sound alot like the movie sountrack of a bizarre movie...creating tension with dissonance and unresolved chords. Personally, I use the "playing outside" thing sparingly and return home in a timely fashion so the listener can hopefully appreciate the contrast. That being said, Mr. Baily's music can offer some ideas and I enjoyed his rhythmic approach as well.

    Even if you don't dig Derek you can get some great ideas from him. He was an expert @ mixing fretted notes w/ harmonics and that is something that someone like Bill Frisell has used a lot in a more "inside" approach. His book on improvisation is interesting reading and he comes across as both intelligent and analytical. I believe he passed a few years ago.

    =-) PJ

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by P.J.
    Even if you don't dig Derek you can get some great ideas from him. He was an expert @ mixing fretted notes w/ harmonics and that is something that someone like Bill Frisell has used a lot in a more "inside" approach. His book on improvisation is interesting reading and he comes across as both intelligent and analytical. I believe he passed a few years ago.

    =-) PJ
    Absolutely and yes it also feels like this inspired Frisell and has some Jim Hall in it too. What I really liked about Derek is what I felt was a bright "major scale(ish)" rhythmic right hand approach, when playing "outside".

  7. #31

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    I don't understand the premise of this thread. The music I heard was not what I would call "outside" playing because there is no evidence of "inside" playing. His "sonic rambling" was without a tonal centre and had a very weak form and structure which did not develop into anything. You can easily hear this by randomly moving up and down the recording... there is no discernable difference in character anywhere along the track.

    In order for a phrase to be heard as "outside" it must be played against an "expectation" of an "inside " phrase. Outside playing adds tension, excitement and surprise by extending a phrase outside of its harmonic context... a colourful leap into unexpected territory. I'm afraid that Derek's composition did not present enough form or structure to generate any expectation what so ever.... so where is the outside playing? And frankly, I also found it to be a poor example of free jazz.

    I wonder what that audiance really thought?

  8. #32

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    again, i suggest you all read up on what derek was trying to do. though he hung with some jazz musicians, he's not calling it jazz.

    check out his album "aida"-- very interesting piece of solo guitar that really adheres to no standards as far as time, melody, or chord progression. it's not as easy as it sounds-- i give the guy a lot of credit.