The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Hey, Jehu. I'm taking it very literally, personally.

    I want every nuanced inflection under conscious control, so I'm content practising super-slowly. I'm enjoying awareness of fingering and picking, but today I notice how I exhilarating playing with Benson picking can feel. Procedural knowledge before declarative - back to practising.

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu




    Hey, question for David and/or the rest of the group: I know HR says to pick your tempo for the day based on how quickly you can play through perfectly. How literally are you taking that?


    .

    This 50 minute part of my day is sacred. I play for different things outside of that 50 minutes, but in the 50 minute bubble, my patience and safe criticism is my teacher.
    The moment I'm pushed beyond the speed of good execution is the moment I'll cover up with a safer approach, safer choices and at worst, an acceptance of sloppy execution. These things could become ingrained and at some point in the future I ask "Why don't I hear changes better? Why didn't I get better at getting off book when things were at a gentle pace?" and we all know who's to blame.
    Going through these projects is making me mindful of playing by ear vs. playing by knowledge of the changes. I can find peace with these two approaches and learn sides of interactive playing once and for all.
    Not all I'm getting from this program are things I could have seen when I started. It's good facing the potholes in the road. I can get out and patch them, and still get to where I'm going without an accident.

    After the 50 minutes are up, I have the luxury of working on stuff like voice leading and playing with others. When I do, I've noticed I'm a stronger player.

    Oh, I don't know if this week's changes are actually Tune changes, but the exercise is challenging and I'm finding that looking at 2 systems at a time (2 lines of the chart) and getting to know them that way is a good way to know the piece as a whole.
    To each their own.
    Have fun
    David

  4. #103

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    I am not certain but I think the suggested list of actual songs might have weeks 3 and 4 swapped with the two weeks after. Week 3 seems to be Bauble, Bangles, and Beads, not Angel Eyes.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I am not certain but I think the suggested list of actual songs might have weeks 3 and 4 swapped with the two weeks after. Week 3 seems to be Bauble, Bangles, and Beads, not Angel Eyes.
    Hey, right you are!
    David

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I am not certain but I think the suggested list of actual songs might have weeks 3 and 4 swapped with the two weeks after. Week 3 seems to be Bauble, Bangles, and Beads, not Angel Eyes.
    Good call! I'm not very familiar with the tune. It seems to be a series of ii-V-Is, with the tonal center rising in thirds, like the second half Giant Steps.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Last week we looked at the Bb changes. From that week, here's one suggestion of things that could've been incorporated into a 10 minute session. Just to give you ideas of the devices, range, note choices available to you.
    David

    Attachment 41916Attachment 41917
    Sight Reading Factory(R) is paying off. I could almost read that (slowly - aka Bobby Shew's "Tempo-de-Learno")!

  8. #107

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    Bar 8, anyone know what's up with that Ami7 chord? I'm seeing A G C# D. Shouldn't the C# be natural?

  9. #108

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    Week 4!
    Same structure but again a shift in keys allowing a familiar set of changes on a new set of strings. Our end of week target tempo is up to 96. Be patient.
    Some observations: Let's keep contributing our results and questions, this is the point when the novelty starts to wear and it's a test of resolve. Stay with it and keep note of ways you grow and share it with the others here.
    I've noticed myself that with steadily increasing speed, but starting really slowly back in week 1, I've changed the way I use my right hand. I strive to get a more even and vocal like line, especially in the transitions between phrases. The slow speed allowed me to hear more clearly and work on right hand timing and phrasing. As the speed increases, a cleaner articulation gets gradually incorporated.
    More challenges than I could have imagined. So that's my ongoing challenge.
    David

    Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-2b-lesson-jpgHoward Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-2b-music-jpg

  10. #109

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    STRICTLY for amusement, example or inspiration
    Last week's project and Howard Robert's examples. Please excuse the annoying landscape orientation

    David

    Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-img_8841-jpgHoward Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-img_8843-jpg

  11. #110

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    I'll be unable to participate this week but look forward to next week.

  12. #111

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    At the end of Week 3, I feel things becoming slightly more fluid and less clammy. I took the group's advice and backed things up tempo-wise, so I'm currently hanging out in the high 40s (nowhere near this week's target of 96!). I'm finding the key change in Week 4 helpful; the changes make more sense to me in Bb.

    One complication is that the relentless, slow 8th notes are driving my wife nuts, so I need to steal moments when A) I am home, and B) She is not!

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    At the end of Week 3, I feel things becoming slightly more fluid and less clammy. I took the group's advice and backed things up tempo-wise, so I'm currently hanging out in the high 40s (nowhere near this week's target of 96!). I'm finding the key change in Week 4 helpful; the changes make more sense to me in Bb.

    One complication is that the relentless, slow 8th notes are driving my wife nuts, so I need to steal moments when A) I am home, and B) She is not!
    I was thinking about tempo after the other post. I was thinking some people are driven to progress when pushed, some benefit from finding what space offers. Above all else, this 20 weeks is about finding out what's strong in you as a player, and using that to build a stronger voice, and finding out your weaknesses, and confronting them.
    If you want to play faster out of weak time, impatience or because of a paucity of ideas, then now is the time in your life to become a better player. It's a practice routine. It's going to be ugly. It's not going to be fun at times.
    If you want to play faster because it pushes you to get it to the next level by the end of that session, then that's surely taking the initiative through knowing your own approach.

    I do think it's the hardest thing for me to concentrate on good practicing when I know people are listening, or especially when other people are not enjoying it... or really disliking it.
    Do protect the sanctity of your practice time, most of all from your own self criticism. The things you get down here will make it a lot more enjoyable to others. For sure.
    Have you visited the introductory part of the book lately? You might make a list of things that you want to keep in mind as you go into each 10 minute section. Dynamics can bring life to the line of a solo. Trying to visualize directions in phrases, and creating contour, LEARNING TO PLAY BY EAR- by this I mean let your ear guide you rather than your fingers-and hear the line (this is surprisingly difficult but it's a great goal)... that kind of stuff.

    Anybody else struggling with worrying about not making breakthroughs? Observations and words of encouragement from anyone? Former lurkers? Silent strugglers?
    For all the times I was not feeling progress, avoiding that frustration really held me back. For me, it was finding another player that made the importance of my own time clear. Ironic but true.

    Keep at it. The breakthrough is waiting
    David

  14. #113

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    I've been keeping with it. So far for me, the benefits have been getting more fluid moving around the fingerboard. That alone is worth 20 weeks practice, I think, at this point in my development.

    A stead stream of 8th notes really helps me appreciate how important rhythms are to good phrasing and lines--it's hard to sound hip like this!

    I'm basically ok at these tempos (in the 80s and 90s), but that's partially because I don't worry too much about the occasional clam. For me now, the benefit of pushing myself a bit outweighs playing each note perfectly. I'll be surprised if I can keep up the tempos for the whole course, though. I can barely play scales at 200 right now, much less lines. But we'll see--17 weeks more development should help!

  15. #114

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    I'm still doing this program. Last week was a bit broken, I only got to practise on 3 days. This week should be better, so hopefully I'm soon back on track. Speed wise I started this week at 60 bpm and that is plenty for me. I'm still using other songs, so this week I have On the sunny side of the street. I do feel that my ability to find chordtones has increased during these weeks. One thing I noticed also, Im using iReal Pro backing tracks for practising. If I pick swing style in the track, then playing even 8'th notes becomes impossible for me. Which is kind of obvious I guess.

  16. #115

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    I love this week's project. As far as changes go, I find this piece easier than last week's. It's Angel Eyes.
    A nice workout with minor tonalities and turnarounds therein, and a bridge that contrasts nicely in major.
    See what you think. Ask questions. Have fun!
    David

    Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-fullsizerender-12-jpgHoward Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-fullsizerender-11-jpg

  17. #116

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    Well, today I learned I have a lot less vocabulary for minor ii-V-i than for major.

  18. #117

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    Just a couple of questions on progress on this week's project. I'm wondering how people are doing with this week's changes. In particular, in the B part, are people finding it easier to get around on changes, anticipating the shift in tonal areas and letting their lines reflect that?
    As the tempos are increasing, are people keeping up? Finding it easier? Changing the way they hear or the things you wind up playing through doing this every day?
    I'm definitely enjoying the process of being able to think of new ideas each time around; not falling back on the same things.

    David

    Here's an inspired version of Jim's approach. Of course he's not limited to 8ths but you can hear him thinking about how it all goes together. I've always loved this one, maybe it'll help in hearing the changes in a clear way.
    Have fun

  19. #118

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    I still have a bit of trouble hearing the "logic" of changes at such slow tempos. When I listen to recordings of Angel Eyes, it all makes sense. But at 44 bpm struggle a bit to hear the resolutions, especially on what I think are probably simple passing chords. That said, I am struggling less than I was at the beginning. I did miss all of week three, but I am back in the saddle and looking forward to more.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I still have a bit of trouble hearing the "logic" of changes at such slow tempos. When I listen to recordings of Angel Eyes, it all makes sense. But at 44 bpm struggle a bit to hear the resolutions, especially on what I think are probably simple passing chords. That said, I am struggling less than I was at the beginning. I did miss all of week three, but I am back in the saddle and looking forward to more.
    Hey, welcome back!
    Yeah. That's why I asked how everyone's doing. One thing I realized was at slow speeds, you kinda have to hear where you are, where you're going in the big picture, to really make a thoughtful solo line, what you call logic.
    I think that at a faster speed, you can hear and take cues from what's happening around you, and even let the first beat of a change cue you in to where you should be. But in a strong solo, you anticipate and play "into" a new chord that you know, feel and hear is there. It's meeting something because you know the piece well enough.
    That's why I thought I'd ask this question at this point, and thanks wzpgsr, that's a great observation. Learning pieces at speed can sometimes let you focus on your strong points, and avoid that very vulnerability of anticipating the chords changing. That's one reason I encourage students to get off book; it tests whether you really hear what's going on on in the piece an when the changes occur.

    I'm starting to see the Roberts method in a broader way, not just for the chops, but the ear too. Clever and spot on course of study.

    Curious to hear how others are relating to the changes and their ear, finger and perceptual growth.

    David

  21. #120

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    Here's where I'm at. Angel Eyes, 46 bpm. This is my third run from tonight's practice, starts a bit slowly, but I think I went to some new places tonight. Feeling good. Lots of clunkers, but I am starting to feel the changes a bit more, not relying on the book as much. You can probably hear when I am not confident in a particular change—there's a sort of hesitation or tentativeness going for the nearest note I can find, which results in my time already poor time faltering even more. I have the A section pretty much committed to memory so for the next several days I am going to really work hard to memorize the B section and figure out how to better handle the changes.


  22. #121

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    Hey dudes, sorry I haven't been the world's greatest contributor to the thread. But I'm hanging in there, mid-way through Week 5 at a blistering tempo of 58bpm. I think that it was a good idea to embrace the slow, ensuring that I can nail the changes before ratcheting it up.

    Having said that, I wholeheartedly agree with wgpszr (who I will henceforth refer to as "Larry" in the absence of vowels) -- it's really hard to hear the tune at this tempo rather than a series of at-times-loosely related chords. Especially given HR's sometimes unexpected passing chords and turnarounds.

    I'm finding this one to be a great exercise for working on minor resolutions after all of the major ii-Vs of previous weeks. There is a lot of hanging out on Dm, so it's been fun to emphasize the difference between the major and minor 7 and avoid having it sound like My Funny Valentine. But when a bog-standard ii-V rolls around, oh man, all that hard work in the previous weeks comes blasting through! At 58bpm!

    I'm still finding the shifting tonal centres of the B section tricky after the relative staticness (?... staticity?) of the A section, but like Larry, I'm hoping to have it under control by the end of the week!

    I'd post a clip, but I pretty well sound exactly like Larry at the moment. So... sounding great, Larry!
    Last edited by Jehu; 05-19-2017 at 08:33 AM.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    Having said that, I wholeheartedly agree with wgpszr (who I will henceforth refer to as "Larry" in the absence of vowels)
    Hey man, you spelled it wrong! I will you spare you the backstory on my handle. For the record, it's pronounced "what's up, gasser?", but you can call me gasser for for short.

  24. #123

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    Whew. Glad you're gasser now, those letters are all ones my fingers hate on the keyboard! I've been listening a lot to the clip and there're a lot of thoughts (good thoughts) that go with what I hear.
    I know 50 minutes is at once a lot of time and not nearly enough time. At this tempo, you're right Jay, it's hard to see and hear the whole landscape. It's a little like the feeling I had when I was driving through the Southwest a few years ago. Just a lot of flat, then some hilly rocky areas, then some flat, then some mountains off to the left... But when I flew back, far above (and quite a bit faster) I had this "So THAT's what I was driving through!" revelation.
    I posted that Jim Hall because that's the landscape I hear, even at a really slow tempo. When I play the Cherokee project a few weeks ago, I hear Charlie Parker's KoKo even at a really slow tempo.
    Maybe it's not a bad idea to listen to a real time version of a "fleshed out" recording. Not to copy, but just so you can see where the mountains appear, and how far you are to the end and where those changes occur.

    If you have the time, I find it useful to just take a small passage, maybe 4 or 8 bars of the B section and loop them. Then really get to know them, like you would a small town you pass through in on route 66. Get to know it so every time you come to it you can say "Hey I hear this, it's familiar, I don't need to be timid in finding out where I am."
    If you look at a piece being made up of these smaller sections, if your trip is made up of familiar sections connected by a passing chord, your playing takes on a new dimension. You can do more.

    That's the way it worked with me anyway.

    Back to the wheel...
    David

  25. #124

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    If you're looking for some inspiration, Wes Montgomery recorded Angel Eyes in Dm on Groove Brothers and So Much Guitar. Although some of the changes sound a bit different, this is helping me to hear the harmony a bit better.

  26. #125

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    I've been thinking about how many different jazz books/resources encourage you to work on the constant 8th notes thing. Each has a slightly different take

    * "The Joe Pass Guitar Style" sets out lots of continuous 8th note solos. He says "By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies. 8th-note studies also tend to avoid the practice of playing memorized licks." (p. 35)
    * Joe Elliot's "Introduction to Jazz Guitar soloing" has the "connecting game," where you play continuous 8th note arpeggios. (There was a study group on this board for that book.) There's a connection to superchops here, since Joe Elliot is an MI guy and the book is published by MI, which I believe grew out of Howard Roberts's GIT.
    * Mark Levine talks about the "continuous scale exercise" or the like

    And the one I found most intriguing:
    * In "Forward Motion," Hal Galper first talks about hearing a continuous 8th-note line that targets chord tones. Then, he says you apply hipper rhythms. For example, he says, "This is achieved by substituting rhythmically syncopated hearing by letting the rhythms select which notes you want to play." (p. 62) But he says you can only do this once you "have acquired the ability to hear and execute a continuous 8th note line."
    Last edited by dingusmingus; 05-21-2017 at 08:56 PM. Reason: typo