Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine

[Jehu]

I've been using a swing feel from the beginning (though not with the metronome on 2 and 4), and I think that my time and feel has really improved through this process. Once I can include phrasing and space, I think I will be a much different guitarist than I was 11 weeks ago!

By the way, I don't know if any of you listen to the GuitarWank podcast, but in the latest episode (#79) Scott Henderson talks about one of the most valuable exercises he has come across, something that was taught to him by Chick Corea: Slowing a progression right down and forcing yourself to play through it using nothing but uninterupted 8ths. Bruce Forman then chimes in (he has advocated this before) and talks at length about all of the benefits of this practice.

A good listen in case anyone is lacking motivation!

[TH]

These comments you guys are contributing are really making this course of 20 weeks come and stay alive. Thanks for doing this with me.
Often there'll be a comment that'll really make me think. I have the great fortune to be in a town with some of the greatest musicians alive and catching up with them before the first hit is always a pleasure. Last night I had a nice talk with tenor player Jerry Bergonzi and I asked him if could ever think of what he considered important considerations in making a solo that has life to it; how he thinks of phrases and putting them together. He gave me his top three priorities.

Direction. Are your lines going up? Going down? Several in a row in the same direction? Angular? Using dissonance or consonance? How long does a line go?
Rhythm. Think rhythmically.
Singing. Does your line sing? Can you sing your line? It has to have a singing quality to it.

Hmmm, well the rhythmic thing might be difficult since we're using all eighth note phrases, right? Not as elusive as you might think though. Rhythm, the use of space and density, can also be achieved even with eighths, with line length, or counterpoint (C E C F C A C G as a way to create quarter note values, etc), or things you come up with.

As for Direction and a singable line, I'll just say maybe focusing on these ideas can give you ideas that bring you INTO the soloing space along with all the stuff you do.

Thought for the day.
David

[wzpgsr]

Thank you, David, for putting this together and leading the charge. I'm hoping we can continue in some manner after the 20 weeks is up.

[wzpgsr]

Well, I neglected to set the metronome to 2 and 4, but I tried playing with swing eighths anyways. When I am at more normal tempos--tonight I played Cherokee at 50 bpm--swing feel just sorta comes outta me. But at this tempo I find myself playing swing 16ths instead of 8ths and everything sort of goes to hell as far as sticking to the program. Interestingly, although I wasn't able to play continuous strings of 16th notes, I did find that what I played in these bursts felt a lot more like jazz to me than what I play in straight 8ths. I've always dug Billy Bean's sense of swing that comes out in his 16th note runs. I have definitely developed some unhelpful muscle memory over certain kinds of changes. I frequently have to nudge myself back to striving for creativity.

Cherokee is still probably the hardest tune for me out of the bunch. I even took some time to play the A section with vanilla changes, but I just can't see to keep all the key changes straight. Of all the changes we've been working, I think I will be working through this one and Blues for Alice for a long, long time. They're both really great songs.

[TH]

But at this tempo I find myself playing swing 16ths instead of 8ths and everything sort of goes to hell as far as sticking to the program.

Maybe I should've suggested this earlier on so we could've brought it up to speed, and you still can of course. There's a different set of benefits in playing 16ths and 8ths, and you see that. Try it out as 8ths. I suggested this because once you feel 8ths, you may acquire a sense of weight and movement to your notes that can inform your note choice.
It's natural to move to 16ths or to lose an individual sound of the swung note pairs at high speed. It's the feel that remains even if the notes even out. That's the thing I think is important.

Yeah, the program can bend you all over like a pretzel, but I've got to say, there's a ton of breakthroughs you can make given all you'd have picked up at this point.

Hey I'm curious, anybody out there doing these 20 weeks with a practice partner?

Moving onward-

David

[TH]

Week 16. We're making our way through the review of the previous projects, with ever increasing speed and hopefully confidence. Week 2 of the three week review.
I'm curious to get feedback on the flow of ideas in line construction.
How are the notes going?
How are the small note figures going?
How are the larger figures and lines going?
How are the phrases going?
Are you getting a sense of entirety in a solo chorus?
Do you feel your playing changes depending what you set about thinking before you engage your fingers?
Are you getting a sense that you can do more, given the elimination of finger hesitation, the sense of finger confidence?
Has your right hand changed through all this? (I should say your picking hand, for lefties)
Are you hearing differently?

Do chime in and though there's not a lot to say about the new material, having met it previously, there is plenty to share about what re-visiting this can mean.

David

[wzpgsr]

I've been having some difficulty sticking to the rhythmic requirements the past few days. I think this might be because I don't have a whole lot of time to play and have been just wanting to play. I have bumped my tempo up to 58 because I found that I can hang as well there *on the charts or parts of charts that I am out of the book on* as at the lower tempos.

I occasionally double the speed of my recorded sessions to get an idea of how my ideas might sound at normal tempos. I was pretty surprised tonight to hear that, on a line by line basis, I lot of what I play freely (without rhythmic restriction) sounds really cool to me and just about what I'd like to sound like at 2x the tempo.

This first run through the 20 week program has been mostly an exercise for me to discover my weaknesses and what I need to focus on. In a nutshell, that's fretboard familiarity. I have definitely improved in this regard but have a long ways to go. There are two approaches I'd like to work on: straightforward five or seven positions and Mick Goodrick's unitar concept.

I had a really hard time mixing streams of 8ths with triplets in the 40s bpm, but it feels a lot better at 58.

I'm a long way from having the tunes down cold, but on each review I've improved the speed with which I'm able to jump in and start playing.

Improving a bit on my approach to identify at a glance sections that I should treat as dominant and those I should treat as tonic. Modulations that don't use secondary dominants are still hard to hear, but getting better. Same with tonic subs and tritone subs. I was pleased to notice that I was doing a better job at switching positions when the key centers changed. I didn't always find the dominant sound right away, but I chalk that up to my spotty fretboard knowledge, which should improve over time with effort.

That's where I'm at!

[Michael Kaye]

I'm just marking this thread to follow it in quick links

[TH]

I had a really hard time mixing streams of 8ths with triplets in the 40s bpm, but it feels a lot better at 58.

There's so much to keep track of in one's playing, time, feel, note choice, content, harmony, etc... When it comes together, it all becomes a part of one's flow; like speaking. When I hang out with people that speak articulately and eloquently, I think differently. When I see good music regularly, I hear differently. It's very much like language.

The blend of 8ths and triplets is a really good thing to get down; the feel is very closely related. Hey you might try putting down the guitar for a segment, it can just be for a little while, and articulate the swing feel by saying it verbally. You can also do this with a metronome on 2 and 4, as I've mentioned. Then go to a triplet feel. It'll have the same feel as swing 8ths, but instead of two tied notes and a third, you have all three you speak.

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 becomes 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3... then switch back and forth. Have you tried that? Just to get the time feel.
Also I know it's not in the instructions of the exercise, but if you're working on hearing the changes, and then playing by ear (a good goal) you might try this exercise: Take two measures and play eighths as the exercise goes. Then take the next and play chords. Then alternate back. This is over the backing track you make. See if this can help you smooth that transition between the harmony and melody worlds.

There's an exercise Mick plays around with, I think he calls it Space Stella. You play a couple measures of stella as a solo, then a couple as comping, back and forth. It's a real ass kicker but in the end, you see the connections between areas of the guitar, hearing and playing, comping and soloing, and just being as mindful from the initiative you show from one area and making sure you apply it to others.

These are all things that come together slowly. What ever you wind up working on, focusing on, doing it in real time and on a regular basis, it's going to pay off in ways you never knew.

Really glad you're in the river here. I'll throw some other thoughts out there when I get a chance. Any other comments or advice from anyone out there?

You guys finding this review segment more or less satisfying? Surprising?

Hope you're surprising yourself-

David

[wzpgsr]

There's so much to keep track of in one's playing, time, feel, note choice, content, harmony, etc... When it comes together, it all becomes a part of one's flow; like speaking. When I hang out with people that speak articulately and eloquently, I think differently. When I see good music regularly, I hear differently. It's very much like language.

The blend of 8ths and triplets is a really good thing to get down; the feel is very closely related. Hey you might try putting down the guitar for a segment, it can just be for a little while, and articulate the swing feel by saying it verbally. You can also do this with a metronome on 2 and 4, as I've mentioned. Then go to a triplet feel. It'll have the same feel as swing 8ths, but instead of two tied notes and a third, you have all three you speak.

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 becomes 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3... then switch back and forth. Have you tried that? Just to get the time feel.

I have been doing that. Thank you for the suggestion. To deal with the slow tempo issue I have been applying a subdivision technique I learned from Peter Erskine's book Time Awareness. He recommends vocalizing off-beats. So on 8ths you make some sort of sound on the -ands and with triplets you make a sound on the second and third components of the triplet. When playing swing 8ths, I will play the one of a triplet, sing the 2 and 3 and also play the 3. It sounds complicated, but it's just a matter of practice. I find that at faster tempos it is easier to get away from the oom-PAH oom-PAH exaggeration that playing strictly on the 1 and 3 of the triplet can create. Mathematically speaking I think swing sounds more natural and swingin' when you're a little short on the length of the 1 and maybe playing a hair ahead of the 3 instead of right on it. I also like to sort of slide in and out of swing and straight in the middle of a line.

Also I know it's not in the instructions of the exercise, but if you're working on hearing the changes, and then playing by ear (a good goal) you might try this exercise: Take two measures and play eighths as the exercise goes. Then take the next and play chords. Then alternate back. This is over the backing track you make. See if this can help you smooth that transition between the harmony and melody worlds.

That's a great idea. I've read about something similar when transcribing. Play a couple of measure directly from the transcription, then play a couple measures of improv.

[TH]

There you go! Yeah as we are in the review segment here, it's great to realize the value of the 8th note chops program, but there are so many more things beyond what's given that you can bring to your playing. That includes taking this exercise and bringing some variation of it to your practice routine "post graduate". It'd been ages, decades since I got the book and it's been absolutely great redoing the run all this time later. Much different experience for sure.
I didn't realize this when I started this thread that we'll wind up about the time of Summer's end.
Good takeaway for a 20 week summer.

David

[TH]

I'm just marking this thread to follow it in quick links

Chime in with all your triumphs, thoughts and frustrations, no matter where you are in the program or progress. Let this be a place where everyone can learn something from everyone else.
My best group hangs are when players of different levels share their questions and answers with one another. It truly enriches the entire experience to uncover the many layers of self discovery and progress.

David

[wzpgsr]

Just a quick note. Tonight, just for a few bars here and there, I alternated between comping and improv as David suggested. It really does help negotiate the changes. Usually I might play a chord and then improvise a line over that chord. When I would play a chord during a 10 minute run, I would be playing INTO the next chord. Very cool!

Need to spend more time with this.

[Jehu]

Hey guys, I haven't been spending a lot of time on the forum but I'm still plugging away at this every day. I'm a few weeks behind you, half way through Week 12.

I was really struggling with this one, as until now I've been using a chord tone approach (triads and extensions, and approaches to/enclosures around those). That really wasn't working out for this tune and on top of that, the progression itself really does not appeal to me. (Anyone know what this one is, by the way? Is it an actual tune?) I even considered skipping these two weeks of the course.

Eventually I resigned myself to using a modal approach and that seems to working much, much better. I'm having more fun with it, and it's probably a good exercise for me to get used to using different approaches to different types of tunes.

Anyway, that's where I am. I'm still a far stretch away from producing coherent phrases with intention, and I'm still a bit noodly, but at least my noodling is sounding more and more like something other than scales and chromatic flailing!

[TH]

Hey guys, I haven't been spending a lot of time on the forum but I'm still plugging away at this every day. I'm a few weeks behind you, half way through Week 12.


Eventually I resigned myself to using a modal approach and that seems to working much, much better. I'm having more fun with it, and it's probably a good exercise for me to get used to using different approaches to different types of tunes.

Nice. As much as this program is focused on chops, and we so often think of chops in terms of speed and finger dexterity, this graduating from ultra slow (how many felt out of their element, impatient or deceived by the slow start?) to finding the upper limit of one's playing is really turning out to be a thought exercise as much as a speed thing.
Yes, each piece is going to require a different way of hearing, a different strategy of pacing and different tools of the language. Finding the beauty of the lyric line in a ballad, creating a sense of architecture within a modal tune (or even the middle section of Stella for that matter), negotiating fast changes over tricky fast moving unusual interval harmonies ( Miss Jones, Giant Steps, ...) all require a different approach and process.
That's why these pieces are such a workout. Cherokee requires you to hear differently than All The Things.

It's not always easy to appreciate the unique challenges of different types of tunes, at least the first time through the 20 week course; they're just pieces to unfold and get through week by week, but in the review section we're currently going through, it becomes clearer that you've got to have a wide vocabulary to artfully and craftily negotiate different types of music.

For each piece, there's a balance of being aware of the overall sense of movement, having a knowledge in your hands AND in your ear of what each tonal area requires, being able to anticipate and gracefully or meaningfully handle transitions from one section to another, and having a sense of overall purpose. The last one is really challenging as you need to understand the landscape of the piece if you're going to seed it and grow your own ecosystem on it.

You don't plant the same way for rocky terrain as you would an open rolling plain. Same way with these pieces. So Jay, good for you for having a tough time. You're learning about some new sonic flora and fauna now. When you can hear it, really understand the underlying flow of the piece, you can play by ear as much as by device, and you will find playing naturally is much faster than the fight between your mind and ear.
And your time feel and swing becomes more natural too.

Unexpected benefits from the search for chops.

David

[wzpgsr]

I was really struggling with this one, as until now I've been using a chord tone approach (triads and extensions, and approaches to/enclosures around those). That really wasn't working out for this tune and on top of that, the progression itself really does not appeal to me. (Anyone know what this one is, by the way? Is it an actual tune?) I even considered skipping these two weeks of the course.

Is this the tune with the F blues vamp? I wondered the same thing. I hear it with a Stolen Moments vibe even though it's not the actual song.

[quote ]Eventually I resigned myself to using a modal approach and that seems to working much, much better. I'm having more fun with it, and it's probably a good exercise for me to get used to using different approaches to different types of tunes.
![/QUOTE]

Definitely a challenge when we are playing over the same style of backing for each tune!

[Jehu]

Is this the tune with the F blues vamp? I wondered the same thing. I hear it with a Stolen Moments vibe even though it's not the actual song.

Definitely a challenge when we are playing over the same style of backing for each tune!

Yep, that's the one... the bebop style 'chord tones + enclosures' approach really sounds terrible on it, at least the way I play it! I think the problem is that the progression never really resolves, but I guess that is a somewhat common feature of nonfunctional harmony that I need to learn to cope with.

[wzpgsr]

Yep, that's the one... the bebop style 'chord tones + enclosures' approach really sounds terrible on it, at least the way I play it! I think the problem is that the progression never really resolves, but I guess that is a somewhat common feature of nonfunctional harmony that I need to learn to cope with.

You're on! I'll give your approach a shot next time that tune comes around.

[TH]

Starting to tie things together and getting the 8th note task in order.
We've got a different form each day, and HR suggests an order that keeps things fresh, a pace that keeps things lively.
David



Have fun!

[wzpgsr]

I'm going to be a bit mobile over the coming days. I should be able to wrangle some sort practice together though likely unable to record. Maybe I'll get a friend to comp for me for an hour straight :-)

Anyways, I've been thinking a bit about King Oliver's ideas about mastering simple melodies before embellishing them, as discussed in Hal Galper's Forward Motion. Last night I spent a bit of time with just chord tones, vary degrees of swing feel, and picking dynamics to hunt down some melodic and ideally hummable hooks. Seems so easy in theory, in practice, it was a mixed bag. Feeling pretty good at 58 bpm. I've pretty much settled on this as my max tempo at this point. A few more mistakes, but the feel is not quite so elusive, which makes it more interesting to me.

[TH]

I'm going to be a bit mobile over the coming days. I should be able to wrangle some sort practice together though likely unable to record. Maybe I'll get a friend to comp for me for an hour straight :-)

Anyways, I've been thinking a bit about King Oliver's ideas about mastering simple melodies before embellishing them, as discussed in Hal Galper's Forward Motion. Last night I spent a bit of time with just chord tones, vary degrees of swing feel, and picking dynamics to hunt down some melodic and ideally hummable hooks. Seems so easy in theory, in practice, it was a mixed bag. Feeling pretty good at 58 bpm. I've pretty much settled on this as my max tempo at this point. A few more mistakes, but the feel is not quite so elusive, which makes it more interesting to me.

If you find it difficulty to find a rhythm track, use your metronome and maybe even concentrate on one piece during this time and do the chordal and solo alternation exercise. There are always several layers that we're building up to do this well, and hearing the relationship between chords and solo lines is an excellent way to focus your playing. You'll come back a changed player.

Have a good trip!

David

[TH]

Hey guys. A few thoughts on the continuing progression of the 20 week program.

First of all, I'm taking a run through from the beginning starting this week. (WHAT?! WHY?) A few years ago I was really intrigued with the fretless guitar. I put some time into playing it but it never really came together. Some things sounded good, but too many things were not coming together. The learning curve was way too steep and I love my chords; chords are unforgivingly difficult on a fretless.
Well I've begun to re-acquaint myself with the fretless and somethings I noticed. Within a position, I can be convincing. When I have to change, all hell breaks loose. Sometimes it's a slide home and SAFE! ...other times, Yer OUT!. The instrument is completely different. And ideas that are so easy on a fretted guitar completely abandon me for certain safe ideas that I find myself trapped by.

My solution is to do the 20 week program with specific goals each week aside from the HR program. Like work on one fretboard position (ex: roots on 6 and 4, or roots on 5 and 2... etc and eventually as the speed is increasing, the difficult leap to moving up and down the fingerboard.)

The graduated speed approach is good for me. The commitment to accomplishing something solid is even better. That, it turns out, is the greatest determiner of success: Following through.

So I'm not going to say anything further on this endevour except to say I'll still excitedly finish up the 20 week journey while I'm doing a second cycle.

What are your feelings for a possible project after week 20? A piece a week, slow to fast with a goal of introducing embellishment and phrasing devices into our every day soloing? Work on an etude and study how we might create better lines through our own use of the language? Looking at the pieces of the HR 20 week course without the constrictive 8th note rule? (In other words do this same program or a similar one but with rhythmic or harmonic focus). Focus on a collective set of stylistic devices (motif, direction exercises, introducing dissonance, use of space...) in the search for an order that is personal and logical.

I ask this of people who have been with us and done the Super Chops program. What would be useful in your personal goals, and are you willing to follow through and contribute comments? This last one is important to me, personally, so I don't turn this into a monologue of things that who knows what anyone thinks of.

Just a few things off the top of my head. These review weeks are proving to be a lot of fun!

David

[wzpgsr]

Hey guys. A few thoughts on the continuing progression of the 20 week program.

First of all, I'm taking a run through from the beginning starting this week. (WHAT?! WHY?) A few years ago I was really intrigued with the fretless guitar. I put some time into playing it but it never really came together. Some things sounded good, but too many things were not coming together. The learning curve was way too steep and I love my chords; chords are unforgivingly difficult on a fretless.
Well I've begun to re-acquaint myself with the fretless and somethings I noticed. Within a position, I can be convincing. When I have to change, all hell breaks loose. Sometimes it's a slide home and SAFE! ...other times, Yer OUT!. The instrument is completely different. And ideas that are so easy on a fretted guitar completely abandon me for certain safe ideas that I find myself trapped by.

My solution is to do the 20 week program with specific goals each week aside from the HR program. Like work on one fretboard position (ex: roots on 6 and 4, or roots on 5 and 2... etc and eventually as the speed is increasing, the difficult leap to moving up and down the fingerboard.)

The graduated speed approach is good for me. The commitment to accomplishing something solid is even better. That, it turns out, is the greatest determiner of success: Following through.

So I'm not going to say anything further on this endevour except to say I'll still excitedly finish up the 20 week journey while I'm doing a second cycle.

What are your feelings for a possible project after week 20? A piece a week, slow to fast with a goal of introducing embellishment and phrasing devices into our every day soloing? Work on an etude and study how we might create better lines through our own use of the language? Looking at the pieces of the HR 20 week course without the constrictive 8th note rule? (In other words do this same program or a similar one but with rhythmic or harmonic focus). Focus on a collective set of stylistic devices (motif, direction exercises, introducing dissonance, use of space...) in the search for an order that is personal and logical.

I ask this of people who have been with us and done the Super Chops program. What would be useful in your personal goals, and are you willing to follow through and contribute comments? This last one is important to me, personally, so I don't turn this into a monologue of things that who knows what anyone thinks of.

Just a few things off the top of my head. These review weeks are proving to be a lot of fun!

David

I am torn between all of the options you've presented. I will give it some thought and get back you soon.

[Jehu]

Hey David,

I'm still at it, about halfway through Week 13 at a white-knuckle 74bpm. This is the second week of the last new progression. At first this one was a real chore, and I was finding working on it very unpleasant. Once I moved from a chord tone-based approach to a modal one, things dramatically improved: Horses for courses. It had been quite a long time since I worked on visualising the fretboard as a series of interlocking scales/modes, so that has been a good review, and while I used the blues scale quite a bit back in my pre-jazz days, it has been a very long time. I don't think I've ever put any effort into the parallel minor blues scale in all areas of the fretboard, so that's been a real eye opener. All of this felt (and sounded) very mechanical to begin with, but as familiarity increases I'm becoming more and more able to pre-hear and develop listenable ideas.

You're a brave man taking this course on with a fretless! Many years ago I learned a bit of violin and cello, and I remember it not taking very long to get things to sound more or less in tune. But as soon as you try to play a double-stop, any intonation issues become glaringly obvious. I can't imagine trying to get chords sounding in tune on a fretless guitar!

You and gasser will obviously be finishing the course a few weeks ahead of me, but in terms of what to work on next, my vote would be for this:

A piece a week, slow to fast with a goal of introducing embellishment and phrasing devices into our every day soloing? Work on an etude and study how we might create better lines through our own use of the language?

I know the latter is kind of what you were aiming for with your other etude thread, and I just want to say that I'm still working with that stuff and getting a lot out of it even though conversation has dropped off a bit. I've been a terrible contributor but I'd like to get back on that thread again, and hopefully get another etude going. I think it's really great what you have been doing; you've been incredibly generous and I'm surprised more people aren't taking advantage.

(That sort of thread is sort of what I was hoping for with the Raney Aebersold study group I started a while back, but I found that nobody really wanted to discuss the devices/approaches and what Raney may have been thinking, preferring to get the etudes up to speed and under the fingers. Also a totally valid goal, but clearly very different from what you are doing in your thread.)

[fredpower]

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