The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Nice job! Really solid. I liked quite a bit how you handled the chromatically descending m7 turnarounds before the bridge—sounded to me like repeated patterns that included large interval leaps. In the greatest tradition of American music, I’m stealing that!
    Thank you, wzpgsr! I appreciate your listening and your feedback. It's funny. Those chromatically descending m7 turnarounds always catch me off guard and a bit flat-footed. I kept thinking I should be doing something more interesting. And I agree with your earlier post about a lot of chromaticism. At these slower tempos it doesn't work the way it would at a faster pace. But I believe it's still good to try and use it in these exercises. Ready to dive into Db! I'm enjoying sharing the journey with all of you!

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  3. #327

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    Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-screen-shot-2020-12-13-5-12-19-pm-png
    Familiar form, new location. This week it's a Cherokee based form but the new home key area is in Db. That's going to throw things way off as far as the fingerboard is concerned because the roots will be shifted in roughly a string's orientation.
    A few notes as we begin. Find all the Db roots up and down the neck and revise your internal map so you know where these are. Use your ear, your visual layout of the neck and your harmonic knowledge to really avoid avoiding. By that I mean, really DIG INTO those awkward positions that many wind up avoiding. Yeah, you know them, maybe root on the 4th string? That kind of thing?
    Push yourself at some point to explore those positions that are full of missed notes. Anything that has important notes between the second and third strings is going to tend to fool your fingers. That's where weirdness occurs, and especially exploring unused intervals, your fingers are going to have different habits.
    Explore this and really learn them at this point. You'll be glad to have these autopilots down when the speed picks up.

    Another thing to think about. You don't need to strive to make a profound or beautiful statement on every phrase. There are different heirarchies of phrases, some support, some declare, some ask, some answer.
    Think about this. Experiment with taking a 2 bar area and setting up the next 2 bars. Take two bars to ask a question, and answer it in some way in the next two bars. Find contrast in direction, in direction, in tendency and learn to create a feeling of resolution.
    There are definite ways to do this. I won't state anything right now but fool around with the idea, and see what it does when you're going into a phrase, a section, a solo...and see if it changes the way you play.
    Good luck and enjoy playing!

  4. #328

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    In case you need the format. End of the week goal is 72
    Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine-screen-shot-2020-12-13-5-28-47-pm-png

  5. #329

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    Today’s my off day. I have a lesson tonight, but time permitting will try to commit the changes to memory so I am ready to dive in tomorrow. Learning the benefits of thinking numerically when memorizing changes....

  6. #330

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Today’s my off day. I have a lesson tonight, but time permitting will try to commit the changes to memory so I am ready to dive in tomorrow. Learning the benefits of thinking numerically when memorizing changes....
    Yeah, I'm trying to work on thinking numerically when memorizing changes as well. Not sure why I didn't do it years ago. I'm diving into Db this evening!

  7. #331

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    Could I ask if you guys get off book at some point of the week, and to share your thoughts on a difference of approach at that point?
    It's something I absolutely recommend, and in reading over the soloing notes from the Super Chops book HR also makes it a point of emphasis.
    Thanks.

  8. #332

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    Day 8. 50 BPM After a certain amount of backing myself into strange corners, I figured out some nice ways around this thing in Db. By the end I was rather happy with how I had it flowing and was starting to get some nice voice leading going on... I'd love to hear how folks are applying a numeric system when memorizing the changes. For me it is still brute force...

  9. #333

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Could I ask if you guys get off book at some point of the week, and to share your thoughts on a difference of approach at that point?
    It's something I absolutely recommend, and in reading over the soloing notes from the Super Chops book HR also makes it a point of emphasis.
    Thanks.
    I was off book starting on day 1. That was one of the reasons I chose to ignore the full voicings and play mainly shell voicings. It took me maybe 45 mins tonight to internalize the Db harmonies today with 80% confidence. By the time I sit down to record tomorrow night I expect to be at 100% confidence and have the changes and key centers internalized for improvising off-book.

  10. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    Day 8. 50 BPM After a certain amount of backing myself into strange corners, I figured out some nice ways around this thing in Db. By the end I was rather happy with how I had it flowing and was starting to get some nice voice leading going on... I'd love to hear how folks are applying a numeric system when memorizing the changes. For me it is still brute force...
    My approach is sort of a hodge-podge of relating the chord of the moment either to the I chord of the key center, or as a larger unit—say, ii-V moving to the IV. The bridge I think of as a bunch of descending ii-Vs—this is more of a visual thing. I suppose I should at least internalize what relationship the first ii-V of the bridge has to the primary key of the piece. I guess in Bb, the first ii-V is in B, so from now on I’ll think of that as a movement to the bII. Weird maybe? I haven’t analyzed a ton of music like this, so I dunno how weird a key change to the bII is, but it sounds so good.

    For me personally, playing the changes (as opposed to using a backing track) with simple shell voicings is key. I just know I would be staring at the chart a lot longer if I hadn’t internalized the harmony by playing it myself. Three years ago when we did this group (see page one of this thread) I was lost in this tune, but now I can internalize the changes pretty quickly—kind of a cool way to note my improvement in this regard over three years.

  11. #335

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    I'm on day one of Db. I did the exercises with the iReal Pro backing track. Then I spent a bunch of time this evening trying to iron out some of the changes that are a bit less familiar in this key. Trying to envision different ways to attack these troublesome spots all over the fretboard. I spent a lot of time thinking about melodic minor and diminished scales over some of #11 and #9 chords. I continue to enjoy the process.

    I commend you, wzpgsr for comping the changes. I have no doubt it's very helpful to internalize the harmony and the form. I always comp through the changes before I get started. I've done it more often now that the key has been moved to Db. But I continue to use iReal Pro more out of convenience and a bit of laziness. I look forward to spending the rest of the week in Db. I'm certain it's going to open more doors. I also look forward to moving on from Cherokee. It's never been my favorite tune.

  12. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by D'Aquisto Fan
    I'm on day one of Db. I did the exercises with the iReal Pro backing track. Then I spent a bunch of time this evening trying to iron out some of the changes that are a bit less familiar in this key. Trying to envision different ways to attack these troublesome spots all over the fretboard. I spent a lot of time thinking about melodic minor and diminished scales over some of #11 and #9 chords. I continue to enjoy the process.

    I commend you, wzpgsr for comping the changes. I have no doubt it's very helpful to internalize the harmony and the form. I always comp through the changes before I get started. I've done it more often now that the key has been moved to Db. But I continue to use iReal Pro more out of convenience and a bit of laziness. I look forward to spending the rest of the week in Db. I'm certain it's going to open more doors. I also look forward to moving on from Cherokee. It's never been my favorite tune.
    I totally get it, and I hope it didn’t sound like I was criticizing the backing track approach. Part of the utility of these program is that it forces each of us to confront the challenges it poses in different ways.

  13. #337

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    A very powerful hint: Even if you don't use your own recorded backing track for eighth note practice, take the 10 minutes and play the changes-off book ASAP. Metronome on 2 and 4. This will impart a sense of swing, a sense of anticipation for the flow of the chords. It sharpens your ear, it gives you an overall sense of the landscape and topography of the piece and it holds you accountable to the piece so when you're soloing, you're aware of the PIECE. Not just changes. You know what's coming up.
    And the benefit, when you play with other people, your single line and chordal sense will be much more solidly joined.
    Just a suggestion/goal.

    Y'know now that I think about it. A person who's trying to learn to comp could do superchops tempo and exercise program with comping and bass line only. There's a lot to be learned about soloing from comping, comping from soloing and both from studying bass line.

  14. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I totally get it, and I hope it didn’t sound like I was criticizing the backing track approach. Part of the utility of these program is that it forces each of us to confront the challenges it poses in different ways.
    We have 19 weeks to work on what you feel you need. The more solid you are as you're doing this daily, the better a player you'll be daily. You might find you want to confront the chordal beast...later on. I'll tell you from experience that having solid chops means good time and no hesitation. That'll make rhythm chord playing (with melodic embellishment even) much easier when you're ready. It's a complementary spiral, they do become part of the same thing. Take it at your pace.

  15. #339

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I totally get it, and I hope it didn’t sound like I was criticizing the backing track approach. Part of the utility of these program is that it forces each of us to confront the challenges it poses in different ways.
    No worries, wzpgsr. I didn't feel like you were criticizing the backing track approach at all. Perhaps I'll stop being lazy and comp the chords soon. I certainly understand the benefits.

  16. #340

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    Day 9. I played the Db version of the changes using shell voicings a couple times as JBN recommended. Still not quite internalized so I am still peeking at the chart occasionally.
    50BPM Switched back to playing with the modified ireal pro backing track. Chords sound, eighth notes are played. Feeling more than a bit stilted and stale, so I'm going to bump the tempo a bit for tomorrow to give myself a jolt. My tuesday blues returning? I'll just keep plugging at it. The longest journey consists of a bunch of single steps etc. etc...

  17. #341

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    I just finished Day Two of Db Cherokee. I felt things coming together a bit more musically. I did play with iReal Pro, but I comped it for a bit in between my first and second takes. I admit I'm looking at the chart much of the time. I seem to have an odd block/aversion to Cherokee. Perhaps it's good for me that we started on this song rather than one I'm much more familiar with. I'm still trying to find the most musical, creative and economical ways to tackle B7#11 and D7#9. I don't find myself focusing on the key centers that much. At this tortoise pace one is allotted a lot more time to really focus on the chords and chord tones. I need to start thinking about the upper extensions more as I did when we were playing in the comfortable key of Bb. I continue to enjoy the process. I appreciate everyone chiming in. A sense of community is motivating and inspiring!

  18. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    Day 9. I played the Db version of the changes using shell voicings a couple times as JBN recommended. Still not quite internalized so I am still peeking at the chart occasionally.
    50BPM Switched back to playing with the modified ireal pro backing track. Chords sound, eighth notes are played. Feeling more than a bit stilted and stale, so I'm going to bump the tempo a bit for tomorrow to give myself a jolt. My tuesday blues returning? I'll just keep plugging at it. The longest journey consists of a bunch of single steps etc. etc...
    You will feel stale. It's where a lot of people stop and give up. You will have a breakthrough.
    Listen to the backing track without playing. Learn to feel the flow of the sections as they form the piece. Really listen and see if you can identify chords by roman numerals, see if you can hear the changes before they occur.
    It's kind of like an amusement park roller coaster, each section will give you a unique twist that you have to meet and play on. If you're behind the chord, you'll most likely play notes to "fill in" the changes with some kind of note without really feeling what you're playing. This is what stale comes from. When you're with the changes, ear, fingers, thoughts, you can choose an idea and play it. It's in the hearing of changes. That's why I'm trying to encourage internalization, and not by note letter or position on the guitar, but by ear and moving your hands into the place or position on the guitar that feels strong.

    Sometimes in trying to play something meaningful, one can set yourself up for not meeting your expectations. Patterns are always good things to master, they give your fingers facility and that comfort can let you put those shapes into larger structures. Listen to good horn players, they have arcs in their solos that can be made up of smaller phrases.
    I take these out and run them on changes. It's good to limber up my fingers and open up my ears.
    Improvisation for saxophone - Oliver Nelson.pdf - Google Drive
    It's a book of improvisatory patterns written by Oliver Nelson.

    Would it help if I took a small moment and had a post on learning to hear changes and the value of the numeral system? It's something that works for me. It helps me "see" the harmonic shape of a piece so my ear doesn't always follow the changes from behind.
    Get in front of the changes and meet them with authority. That's a good goal.
    It comes from sheer brute force and time spent on the instrument. You'll get an enormous rush when this happens. Believe me, it will.

  19. #343

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    Day 1 in Db, 52 bpm. Really felt like I had thoroughly internalized the chords and key centers earlier in the day, but when I sat down to record it all kind of went to hell. That’s okay and to be expected at times.

    I am definitely noticing that certain parts of the tune are more challenging than others, regardless of key. I have gotten better, I think, in applying the sounds of the key centers in the A section, so that’s a positive.

    Also focusing on playing swing 8ths. It sounds really unnatural and polka-like at these tempos, but I will keep cracking at it.

    No idea how to competently handle the Eb7#11/Bb Eb13 bit. Why is the natural 5 in the bass? Even just playing the chord tones sounds weird here, so when I roll into the following Fm7b5 Bb7b9 Ebm9 D7#9 bit I am already feeling tripped up and flummoxed and lose the form.

    The chromatically descending m9 turnaround is a pit of despair. I looped the chords for a bit and worked through HR’s sample to see how he approached it. What I gleaned from this is that I need to practice connecting the ii and I triads the way I practiced them earlier in the year when I was working through Garrison Fewell’s triad book. Light at the end of the tunnel here, I think. If only there was more time in the day....

  20. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr

    No idea how to competently handle the Eb7#11/Bb Eb13 bit. Why is the natural 5 in the bass? Even just playing the chord tones sounds weird here, so when I roll into the following Fm7b5 Bb7b9 Ebm9 D7#9 bit I am already feeling tripped up and flummoxed and lose the form.

    ....
    Cherokee may not be a tune with a lyrical singable harmony, but there's a kind of fun roller coaster ride structure to it. It's a blowing tune. I knew the drummer Alan Dawson and he likened it to "the Giant Steps of our day", meaning it was something that players called to run the changes on; to enjoy the ride on. Maybe that's a part of why it's different to connect with.
    Try this one: Find a version of the tune that you can relate to, in some way, and put it on before or after you practice, and don't think of the changes, or the exercise, or anything but the sound of the piece. Listen and engage yourself, think of the player and put yourself "behind the wheel" and think of the phrases as something you yourself might be playing, take the ride in the driver's seat and feel the flow of the piece. You don't need to know what's going on, just get a feel for the scenery and the landscape. That strange corner and twist that's kind of interesting? Make a mental note. The easier flow of familiar run? Yeah, enjoy the player enjoying it. Don't think, feel. See if this helps you get to know the piece differently.




    This one's a real ride!



    Did you know that on YouTube you can slow the playback speed down? There's a menu icon at the bottom of the screen and you can slow it down if you want.

  21. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    You will feel stale. It's where a lot of people stop and give up. You will have a breakthrough.
    Listen to the backing track without playing. Learn to feel the flow of the sections as they form the piece. Really listen and see if you can identify chords by roman numerals, see if you can hear the changes before they occur.
    It's kind of like an amusement park roller coaster, each section will give you a unique twist that you have to meet and play on. If you're behind the chord, you'll most likely play notes to "fill in" the changes with some kind of note without really feeling what you're playing. This is what stale comes from. When you're with the changes, ear, fingers, thoughts, you can choose an idea and play it. It's in the hearing of changes. That's why I'm trying to encourage internalization, and not by note letter or position on the guitar, but by ear and moving your hands into the place or position on the guitar that feels strong.

    Sometimes in trying to play something meaningful, one can set yourself up for not meeting your expectations. Patterns are always good things to master, they give your fingers facility and that comfort can let you put those shapes into larger structures. Listen to good horn players, they have arcs in their solos that can be made up of smaller phrases.
    I take these out and run them on changes. It's good to limber up my fingers and open up my ears.
    Improvisation for saxophone - Oliver Nelson.pdf - Google Drive
    It's a book of improvisatory patterns written by Oliver Nelson.

    Would it help if I took a small moment and had a post on learning to hear changes and the value of the numeral system? It's something that works for me. It helps me "see" the harmonic shape of a piece so my ear doesn't always follow the changes from behind.
    Get in front of the changes and meet them with authority. That's a good goal.
    It comes from sheer brute force and time spent on the instrument. You'll get an enormous rush when this happens. Believe me, it will.
    Thanks for this! I know the hill always feels the steepest before reaching the tip of the rise. Just need to acknowledge the struggle and move through it... As I told you before we started this, I'm square in the middle of the sheer brute force and time on the instrument phase. Some times it is feeling a bit bruising and the HR material is really good at highlighting the distance I still have to go. But I keep working at it...

    It would be wonderful if you could explain the numerical system. Thanks!

  22. #346

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    Day 10 (3 in Db) 50bpm Did a couple of choruses of shell chords to warm up. Then back to the revised ireal pro for the 8th note outings. Lots of fog but occasional glimpses of actual melodic ideas. But still lots of scalar/arpeggio fog... One step in front of the last.

  23. #347

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    Like guido5, I just finished day 3 in Db. I was at 55 bpm. I definitely ran amuck occasionally. But that's okay. I'm exploring the entire fingerboard and purposefully trying to put myself in awkward positions. Especially when I confront B7#11 and D7#9. But when I nail those changes it sounds so sweet. Sometimes for the B7#11 I'm just seeing Bb mixolydian and raising the 4th. But often I'm zeroing in on F# melodic minor. As for D7#9, I'm typically targeting Eb melodic minor. Which I realize is just one note/major 7th different than the Ebm9 that precedes it. I was also trying to expand out a bit into the upper structures of some of the chords. Of course, that means often the same "chord" can be played over a couple bars. For example playing Gbmaj7 ideas over Gbmaj7 as well as Ebm9. And on those descending minor chords I was specifically targeting from the 3rd of each chord, thus playing Bmaj7-Bbmaj7-Amaj7-Abmaj7 ideas. I realize this is all pretty basic stuff, but it's nice to have the time to really think about it and make intentional decisions. I also really tried to take JBN's advice to feel the flow of the changes and be one step ahead. One place where I always hear the "step ahead" is approaching that B7#11. It's such a cool sound. Reminds me of the 7#11 in Stella. I really appreciate how these slower tempos allow the ears to take over as opposed to reacting and reflexively just reaching for patterns and positions. I really feel like I'm composing on the spot. Certainly it's not always great composition, but it's creatively rewarding. Anyway, I continue to enjoy the process. Thanks to everyone sharing the journey with me.

  24. #348

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    Much better night tonight. Db, 54 bpm. Lots of clunkers but cracked open some new doors tonight.

    Areas of focus:

    trying to play swing 8ths that don’t sound like polka at these tempos;

    experimenting with alternating between more and less extreme swing feel;

    worrying less about nailing the arpeggios and more about playing by ear key in the “shared major tonality” bars like DbM7 Fm7, GbM7 Ebm7, Fm7 Bbm7;

    starting to hear myself play the beginnings of something sensical over the Eb7#11 Eb13 bar—whole tone scale looking for resolution;

    I do think I am going to take a stab at expanding my dominant shell voicings to include at least some of HR’s extensions and alterations because I think it will guide my ear more.

  25. #349

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    Day 11(4 in Db) 50bpm Repeated the sequence of a couple of choruses of shell chords then back to the revised ireal pro for the 8th note work. Sort of a no drama, no breakthroughs session. Doing the work.

  26. #350

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    Day 4 of Cherokee in Db is in the books. It went well enough. I had a long day of work, so I was feeling pretty fried. Not making excuses, but I didn't feel quite as inspired as prior days. Still came up with some nice stuff, I think. Ran into some awkward situations in the same old places. But I keep pushing myself to try and reach for new ways to approach these changes. When I land on my feet it's pretty cool. When I don't it's often a mental lapse or not seeing and hearing the next chord properly. Onward and upward!