Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine

[TH]

I still have mine

That one and the orange one! Have you been following, or have you used it in the past?
David

[fredpower]

I bought the book back in the late 1970's. I studied it a little bit but quit. I just checked and Amazon wants $229 for a copy. Hard to believe.

[TH]

These last three weeks are going to bring us as close to real organic and articulated lines as we'll get. We're introducing Hammer-ons, Pull-offs and Slides.
Have fun!

[wzpgsr]

Back in the saddle again. I will be a week behind because I don't want to miss week 17's review before tackling hammer-on and pull-off.

[Jehu]

These last three weeks are going to bring us as close to real organic and articulated lines as we'll get. We're introducing Hammer-ons, Pull-offs and Slides.
Have fun!

Can't wait! I'm still back midway through the Week 14 review. Getting back to changes playing feels like a bit of a kick in the junk after two weeks of modal noodling. I've had to scale back the ol' bpm.

[TH]

This is the second week of our interpretive reviews of past projects. Now these are all things we've done with straight eighths and triplets, now with some devices that really bring life to a line and point strongly to the creation of phrases when you use rhythms and space.
The project order is a suggestion, and quite a rigorous workout. Do feel free to explore things out of order or even with pieces you may be working on yourself, at this point. We're nearly at the end of the 20 weeks! Let me know how these note articulations change the ways you play, if it changes the way you hear.
This has been an exciting journey and one anyone will be able to run through at their own pace after all the pieces have been presented in toto here.
See the notes from last week for the devices suggested. Here's our worksheet:



Have fun!
David

[wzpgsr]

I'm still a week behind. I think I have my metronome set to high. Not being able to hang on certain songs at 58 bpm has made me lazy and more prone to straying from the prescribed rhythms. Gonna drop it back to a more comfortable level today and hopefully get back in the zone.

[Jehu]

On to Week 15, combining eighths and triplets. Things are hopefully about to become much more tolerable for my wife and dogs!

[TH]

How's everyone doing with position changes on chords and between sections? Does this create more problems as the speed increases and does this work out during the course of the week?
It's one of the areas that prevents progress in many students' playing, staying "safe" as position shifts are required. Those pauses and rests become crutches. Has this program helped in this area?
David

[wzpgsr]

How's everyone doing with position changes on chords and between sections? Does this create more problems as the speed increases and does this work out during the course of the week?
It's one of the areas that prevents progress in many students' playing, staying "safe" as position shifts are required. Those pauses and rests become crutches. Has this program helped in this area?
David

It's getting better. I plan to do a lot of work on organizing my fingerings after week 20. To get started, I'd like to be able to access the most useful arpeggios and subs for a given key center relative to 6th and 5th string root positions. I pay quite a bit of attention to Barry Harris's dominant-based organization, so I want to get the 1, 3, 5, and 7 "important arpeggios" relative to the dominant under my fingers in a more automatic fashion as well. I'm learning how to think about harmony in terms of tonic, dominant, or leading sounds, and how to simplify progressions on the fly so that I don't have think so damn much and hunt around for the fingerings.

[Jehu]

How's everyone doing with position changes on chords and between sections? Does this create more problems as the speed increases and does this work out during the course of the week?
It's one of the areas that prevents progress in many students' playing, staying "safe" as position shifts are required. Those pauses and rests become crutches. Has this program helped in this area?
David

I've been using Garrison Fewell's approach to organising the fretboard, which is essentially triad-based and involves quite a bit of horizontal movement. So my playing has been less "positiony" than it used to be. However, I do tend to have my own pet chord shapes that I tend toward, and I still go back to those shapes. But I've noticed that since I've been making a solid effort to close the gaps on the fretboard, I've been seeing them less as "safe" spots and more as "strong" spots. That is, I don't need to jump to a certain position when a chord comes up, but if I find myself nearby, lines seem to fall more naturally in that position.

I'm just a few days into mixing eighths and triplets, and I've noticed that the big challenge is to mix them in interesting ways... I keep getting stuck in ruts where once I play a triplet, I can't stop! It will come.

[TH]

As we get towards the end of the program, and we can really begin to employ the abilities developed through these weeks, (there's a LOT of takeaway from such a small amount of time, now that we can look back on it) I'm thinking that with this strong foundation of eighth note facility, what kinds of things do you think are important now?
I ask this not only of the active participants, but also lurkers and observers; quiet diligent practicers. What would be a good list of improvisational abilities once coordination and good tempo timing are an ally?

The aforementioned awareness of position shifts might be one area.
A working lexicon of phrasing devices and embellishments (briefly run through in an etudes thread, maybe part 2 in that area?)
Rhythmic patterns and an in depth look at rhythmic permutations and how they effect the development of a solo.
Creating a solo based on motif and development. (Jim Hall, Mick Goodrick and Sonny Rollins, masters of this)
Pacing in a solo.
Phrases, how they begin, what makes content, how they end... the construction of a compelling and fresh sound.
Continuity and Contrast.
Texture and weight.
Silence, the overlooked element: Turning silence from something you think means Panic! to a frame for ideas.
Articulation. Long notes, short notes, how to breathe life into a solo.
Question and Answer, the conversation that makes you into a listener.
Harmonic options, other substitute or outside harmonies, in chords and in soloing.
Looking at a piece, how do you create a strategy for learning and then soloing over different forms?

All these things and more can be looked at on a topic by topic week by week. We might take a piece a week or for two, and look at everything from "What does this piece hold in compositional construction?" to position shifts and where might we aim to create the dramatic arc?

I think I'd like this to be participatory, have at least a few people that'd be willing to chime in and work through and contribute their own discoveries.

But as a water tester, who's working on their soloing abilities and who would like to work with others in a friendly conversational group?

Thanks

David

[Duffy Pratt]

Just started looking at this, and I think I am going to give it a try while Jimmy Bruno recovers (I hope). From what I've read, this seems to share quite a bit with Bruno's method. The focus on key centers parallels Bruno's pitch collections. The five patterns here are almost identical to Bruno's five fingerlings. The emphasis on simply improvising for long periods, with severe limitations on what you are doing is the same. And so is the tune/chord change emphasis.

There are different points of emphasis, and in some ways Roberts lessons seem to require even more discipline. I am not sure I will go through Roberts tunes, though I might. The discussions here have convinced me of the value of these exercises, so I thank you all for that. If anything, this will give me a good focus while Jimmy gets better, without doing anything that would be too far removed from what he is teaching.

[wzpgsr]

Both of the programs that I've been working on this year require alternate picking. I started week 18 with the additional fingering options today and it felt pretty good to loosen up those restrictions. Definitely more of a horn-like vibe not tonguing every note.

[TH]

Both of the programs that I've been working on this year require alternate picking..

Yeah I play seven string fretless fingerstyle, so it's been highly interpretive for me, to say the least. The strict discipline though, it's been really pretty remarkable how this really filters out and traps bad habits.
This program is worth re-visiting at different stages in one's growth and development. And of course at different stages it's quite possible to add or subtract your own parameters, but the song forms, the tempos and the commitment to improvement for less than an hour a day, it's pretty comprehensive.

There's just getting the fingers to the point of confident movement, then there's making it into music.
Hey, we're just about at week 20!!

David

[TH]

We're up to the last week!




It's the end of the summer and the end of our program of Super Chops. This weeks we'll continue the momentum we've built up and as the book suggests, we've got
Project 1B
Project 4B
Project 2B
Project 5B
Project 3B
Project 6B
All covering a wide variety of tune forms and concluding with your best speed for the program.

As always, do chime in with any thoughts you've had on the program. If you began and stopped, I'd be curious to know where, when and why. If you've been working steadily, congrats! I love hearing what has worked, and what you're ready to do for the next step.

I hope we'll share our thoughts through this week. Great work. I'm looking through etude books and real books to think about what might be a good avenue to continue this work with.

Hope your summer's closing is a good one.

Have fun this week!
David

[TH]

Twenty weeks that might have changed your life. There are lots of takeaways from any focused program. This book and really thoughtfully organized course of 20 weeks sat on my shelf for decades 'til I revisited it with this group. I'm glad I did.
I'd say the strongest benefit for me was having a finite time of just an hour each day that's done and over in under two seasons, and finding that elusive "zone" that comes only from that kind of sustained relationship.
I found out tons more than ever suggested in the exercises, and this format, making a weekly project of a piece slow to fast, will make you into a mature and individual player; I don't think you can help it.

I'd say with the control of time and the instrument at this point, no matter what your target speed was at this point, really paves the solid foundation for a study of listening and creating phrases and lines that are not based on limitations, but can really do justice to what ever you hear and imagine.

These song forms will give a great workout in whatever capacity you revisit them. The format and material we did in the last three weeks form a nice condensed version of the program. I plan to make these a part of my regular routine, but with phrasing, embellishments, melodic devices and solo considerations as a part of the mix. That's one version of the "next step". How about you guys?

It's been a lot of fun doing this. Thanks guys, for keeping it alive and your work has been the real inspiration for bringing the Super Chops adventure to life.

David

[wzpgsr]

Twenty weeks that might have changed your life. There are lots of takeaways from any focused program. This book and really thoughtfully organized course of 20 weeks sat on my shelf for decades 'til I revisited it with this group. I'm glad I did.
I'd say the strongest benefit for me was having a finite time of just an hour each day that's done and over in under two seasons, and finding that elusive "zone" that comes only from that kind of sustained relationship.
I found out tons more than ever suggested in the exercises, and this format, making a weekly project of a piece slow to fast, will make you into a mature and individual player; I don't think you can help it.

I'd say with the control of time and the instrument at this point, no matter what your target speed was at this point, really paves the solid foundation for a study of listening and creating phrases and lines that are not based on limitations, but can really do justice to what ever you hear and imagine.

These song forms will give a great workout in whatever capacity you revisit them. The format and material we did in the last three weeks form a nice condensed version of the program. I plan to make these a part of my regular routine, but with phrasing, embellishments, melodic devices and solo considerations as a part of the mix. That's one version of the "next step". How about you guys?

It's been a lot of fun doing this. Thanks guys, for keeping it alive and your work has been the real inspiration for bringing the Super Chops adventure to life.

David

David, thanks so much for running the study group. I will be finishing week 18 today and plan to continue through as scheduled through the rest of the program. I'll certainly be back to post my thoughts at the end.

I plan on continuing to use this model for my practice, although I have a laundry list of items to practice, weaknesses that revealed themselves during this 20 week program.

I'm definitely interested in hearing your thoughts on how I could incorporate other elements into this kind of model: rhythmic exploration, comping, etc. Since I am only able to devote approximately one hour each day to practice, give or take, those are areas of my playing that certainly took a hit over the past 20 weeks. I suspect there is a way to incorporate most of the elements critical to playing jazz, but I am not quite certain how I might approach it.

I'd also be interested in continuing with the study group format, perhaps we could all chime in once a week on our progress, what we've been working on, etc.?

[woollyhair]

David, thanks so much for your indefatigable passion and drive for sharing this. I've had a lot of enjoyment following your thoughtful and considered messages sharing seasoned knowledge. And also the participants who were courageous enough to post their own recordings.

My practise schedule is on another trajectory right now. When that's complete I'll do a private 20week stint and revisit this thread studiously.

a super chops lurker

[Jehu]

Yes, thanks a lot, David. I've had this course for a while now and always planned to give it a go, but was waiting for that magical time when I would somehow have 20 weeks to devote to it. We all know that life doesn't really work that way, so it was good to finally get the kick needed to jump in.

I'm heading into Week 17 so still a few weeks to go, but I can say that I will certainly be continuing to include elements of this programme into my regular practice. (And as I've mentioned, it would be great to continue on as a group in some capacity.) Some weeks it has been a big of a slog, but toughing through it has been very worthwhile. I will almost definitely be giving the entire course another run through at some point in the future.

Congrats on finishing (again), David. I'll be there soon! Too bad that other HR thread seems to have fizzled so quickly. I'm still not sure why they did not just jump on to this one...

[TH]

Hey guys, fellow forumer bako was wondering about your thoughts on this program. An interesting thread here:

how to destroy music but make scales/arpeggios more musical

Your questions are far broader than what I was getting at, breaking down the elements of preparation

to play improvised music. Thanks for such a well articulated short essay.

My post speaking generally is related to bridging the expressive differential between practice and playing.
Scales and arpeggios were the vehicle. Mechanics often begin aimed at playing content perfectly even
perhaps followed by different subdivisions, accents, articulations, phrasing, etc.
How much musicality is possible to bring into such a venture?

Music is saturated in gesture and expression. I suggested transcribing excerpts that can then be
"patternized" because we can retain the musical intent when applied to the scale/arpeggio mechanics.
We can alternatively create our own or transcribe ourselves for a similar effect.
The goal is certainly imbuing every note played with intention and personality. Sometimes we forget.

You just completed stewardship of the Howard Roberts Chops program. He sets up a musically challenging scenario
of continuous notes within a single subdivision. I didn't participate but I played around with the concept some.
It is so easy to zone out in this endeavor because the insertion of silence has been removed from the method.
It would be interesting to have participants from that study group to weigh in here.

If you feel like it, it'd be cool to talk a little about using this discipline and program and what it means to being musical.

Thanks!
David

[wzpgsr]

Still here, plodding my way through week 19. I had to slow down a bit due to life circumstances, and I've also started segueing into my next bit of study. David, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you have planned for your next study group!

[wzpgsr]

Two days left! Just "for the record" here's a few choruses from tonight's practice: Blues For Alice 66 bpm. Too many liberties taken I think, but I had fun.

[Jehu]

Nice. Sounding good, gasser! A few liberties taken after 20 weeks is permissible, I'd say!

I'm midway through Week 19, so getting there as well. I've been pushing the tempo a bit in these last couple of weeks, and have managed to surprise myself by what I can handle. I'll post an "after" clip as well in about a week and a half.

[wzpgsr]

Good idea! I will cobble together a before and after comparison as well this weekend. I am going to continue working this way, but I plan to spend at least some of the 10 minutes sessions working on troublesome sections. So maybe I’ll do a tune every two weeks. I could see playing one 10 minute session straight through, identifying the most problematic part and looping through that for another 10 minutes. Or taking 4 bars first, then playing the whole tune for two segments. I think it’s important to NOT skip playing the entire tune every day, even if you’re not totally comfortable.

One of the obstacles I’ve faced is focusing too much on minutiae, and this program has demonstrated the benefit of hearing and playing through a whole piece, ad nauseam, slowly developing your ear and technique over time. As opposed to, “let me just keep throwing shit at this single ii-V-I for weeks on end.”