The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    chords:

    Three Note Voicing and Beyond
    The Drop 2 book

    lines:

    Line Games
    Cellular Approach


    thats the basic order Randy has in mind I believe, but I think he wrote the drop 2 book before the 3 note chord book, the drop 2 has a more specific subject and the 3note voicings is more general

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe
    Do you have the ireal pro files useful to work with this book? I hate the interface and writing them myself is a pain ITA

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    Send me your email address and I will send you the iReal pro files


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  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Send me your email address and I will send you the iReal pro files


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    Benjamindeornelas@gmail.com thanks!

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  5. #79

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    Here are examples 1-17 through 1-19

    1-17 to 1-19

  6. #80

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    Here are Examples 1-20 through 1-23

    1-20 to 1-23

  7. #81

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    So, I’ve been continuing to use this book, on and off, for about a year now, all still on Chapter One. Some observations:

    1. I think if you spend a lot of time with it to internalize the cells, it can help your playing, but I’m still not sure exactly how. Equivocal, I know.
    2. I know that it’s helped my technique, and my fretboard familiarity, which is pretty key for intermediate players like me.
    3. I'm less sure of what influence it's had on my improvisations. I think of these cells as routes to get from one place to another, such as the root of one chord, to the third of another. They don’t have a “flavor” of their own. That presumably comes in how you use them, through ornamentation and rhythm.
    4. To internalize these, I’ve been moving beyond the specific exercises in the book. I’ve found it helpful to take a pair of cells through the circle of fourths in one key, and also to use it everywhere possible over a tune. (I think this is somewhat similar to what comes in chapters 2 and 3).
    5. The book’s treatment of the “supplemental cells” starting on page 43 is a little curious. Up to that point, Vincent spends a lot of time on each cell, with lots of permutations and fingerings. By contrast, each of the cells in the supplemental cells section is simply listed, and the user needs to figure out how to practice it. So, those 6 pages, with 30 exercises actually has as much, if not more, “meat” than the previous 43 pages with 144 exercises. I think that’s fine, it’s just an interesting change in approach.
    6. On pages 49-61, Vincent goes through “chromatic ii-V sequences.” For example, Dmi7 – G7, C#mi7-F#7, etc. Because he writes out an example of pretty much every cell and lots permutations, I’ve been using that as a review for the whole chapter that comes before.

  8. #82

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    Great points dingusmingus.

    1 and 2. I think that these are primarily technical exercises and all technical exercises are aimed at improving technique.

    3. I think that your third point is right on. I am planning on recording several examples of situations where this approach is used in a less than obvious manner.

    4. Great idea !!

    5 and 6. I haven't got that far yet.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    1 and 2. I think that these are primarily technical exercises and all technical exercises are aimed at improving technique.
    Definitely! It's probably an obvious point, but I had kind of been thinking of the book as a source of vocabulary, as opposed to a technique book.

    Here is how Vincent describes it in the introduction:
    Like my previous book Line Games, this book is a collection of things to practice on the guitar that will help develop the vocabulary of jazz improvisation while simultaneously developing and maintain single-note technique.

  10. #84
    It's a vocabulary book, but it starts out with a very niche application: 2-beat dominant chord cycling. Later he starts applying it to longer changes and different changes like 2-5-1's etc. But it's not merely technical.

    Cycling dominants quickly is a legitimate nut to crack. Perhaps he is choosing to begin with something that hasn't been covered to-death in other places.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-28-2018 at 04:14 PM.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    It's a vocabulary book, but it starts out with a very niche application: 2-beat dominant chord cycling. Later he starts applying it to longer changes and different changes like 2-5-1's etc. But it's not merely technical.

    Cycling dominants quickly is a legitimate not to crack. Perhaps he is choosing to begin with something that hasn't been covered to-death in other places.
    Yes, I'm sure you're right--it is both vocab and technique, as the introduction states. (And perhaps the distinction between vocab and technique is illusory?)

    I'm looking forward to chapters 2 and 3, but I've already gotten a preview from using the cells over tunes, I think.

  12. #86

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    I completed chapter one and started the repetitions of all cells from the beginning, because I want to master them till the point I don't have to think while I play.

    Indeed, the main advantage of the cells and the reason why Mr. Vincent might have started to apply them to the quick dominant cycles is that you simply DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO THINK when you play the quick cycles at speed (e.g. in the turnbacks).

    All you can do is to start with the first note of the first cell and then link the cells together, where the only decision you can take when the chord change is to go up or down to the guitar register.

    The first thing that I learnt with these cells is to NOT try relate them to the CAGED system, as I initially intended to do (see my previous post)...

    It's far easier to learn a couple of fingerings of each cell on each string, as explained in the book.

    So, you need to locate the first note of the cell in the fretboard, which is very easy for the root-to-root cells, where you need to locate the roots:

    Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach (and other books)-untitled-jpg

    In order to internalize the sound of each cell, I am applying them singularly to the tunes, not mixing them, at least at the beginning...

    I attach one chorus of my improvisation on Jordu (tune used in chapter one, ex.1-93).

    The file format is ".tg", you can open, edit and play it with TuxGuitar (free guitar editor tool, you can find it on the web).

    I know that it is a very poor improvisation by using the root-to-root cells only, but I think it will sound much better with the other cells.

    More examples will come...
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Vinz; 03-06-2018 at 05:44 PM.

  13. #87

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    Very Good !!
    Thanks for that

  14. #88

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    Here are exercises 1 - 24 through 1- 27.

    Exercises 1 - 24 and 1 - 25

    Exercise 1 - 26

    Exercise 1- 27

  15. #89

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    This exercise uses the 3rd-oriented patterns with octave displacement explained in the book on ex. 1.68A, 1-68B, 1-68C, 1-71, 1-72.


    Two fingerings are used, both in position and with shifts. Fingerings are showed above the staff.


    With these you can play a never-ending 3rd-oriented cycles from any location on the fingerboard.


    I do this kind of exercise for any pattern on chapter 1 to internalize the fingerings.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by seaguitar
    NOTICE: This thread was begun some time ago and has been merged with the new Study Group working on Mr. Vincent's book.
    Please see post #22 below for a videotaped intro to the study group. (17 April 2017)


    As I'm progressing in my jazz playing, I'm trying to find patterns that can be incorporated into instinct for the language while improvising. Certainly transcribing helps, but it's nice to also find well laid out exercises. Have any of you used the Vincent book? Is the approach one that has payoff -- I.e incorporate dominant cycles that can be transformed into II-V and other progressions? Am curious before I spend a lot of time on it. He doesn't really provide much explanation on why he is presenting things the way he is.
    i find it a great book i ll start it this week end

  17. #91

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    Hello all! I got ahold of this book (Cellular Approach) about a year and a half ago and did what I do with most books I get: worked through the first few pages, didn't think it was immediately helpful to my playing, flipped forward to see where it was leading me, then lost interest.

    Then I got really, really into Julian Lage (huge inspiration to me and former pupil of Randy). And did plenty of playing with and talking to a sax player friend of mine who recommended stuff by Mike Steinel, specifically targeting change running (http://www.mikesteinel.com/resources...ge-Running.pdf) and vocabulary building (Building a Jazz Vocabulary by Mike Steinel). I attend a local jam each week and have steadily been crashing and burning, especially on songs I don't know but also on songs I do. Give me long stretches of one chord ("So What", "Footprints") or tunes mostly in one key ("Autumn Leaves", simpler blues tunes) and I'm fine, but when there are lots of chords and they're moving fast, I am at a loss. I need to beef up my vocab big time so I can even hang.

    So I looked into Steinel's book on building vocab, recognized the term "melodic cells", and remembered I already had a book all about that stuff and better yet it is targeted specifically toward guitar players. Since the beginning of May '19 I've been drilling the heck outta this book, keeping my head down, and trusting the material. Things I haven't historically done. As dingusmingus has said a few times, I'm not sure how all this will work out, if any of it will seep into my playing. It's a concern, but I'm trying to trust that I'm in good hands with Randy.

    To that end, I've been so far taking each group of patterns in chapter 1 (root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, etc.) and working them up to the point where I can play them never-endingly, as Randy suggests. This feels good and convinces me that there's something to this approach. I can blow through quickly cycling dominants with various different approaches, which is nice and becoming reflexive. My next goal is to start applying this stuff to tunes, mixing sections of my own improvisation with these patterns. And instead of running the patterns completely through a cycle, attempting to phrase them in chunks for greater musicality and as a challenge to myself to keep track of where I am in the tune and be able to hop back in at will.

    Anyway, thought I'd revive this thread to share my progress. My fear with devoting myself to any one "approach" is discovering that it's just not applicable like I'd like (Pat Martino's Line Games, for instance, did nothing for me, unfortunately). But I think Randy's onto something and I want to let him lead me for a while. I'll be continually reminding myself to force this material into improvisations over real tunes as I would work on any other vocab building. Anyone else still working through this book? How are you getting on?

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermacd
    Hello all! I got ahold of this book (Cellular Approach) about a year and a half ago and did what I do with most books I get: worked through the first few pages, didn't think it was immediately helpful to my playing, flipped forward to see where it was leading me, then lost interest.

    Then I got really, really into Julian Lage (huge inspiration to me and former pupil of Randy). And did plenty of playing with and talking to a sax player friend of mine who recommended stuff by Mike Steinel, specifically targeting change running (http://www.mikesteinel.com/resources...ge-Running.pdf) and vocabulary building (Building a Jazz Vocabulary by Mike Steinel). I attend a local jam each week and have steadily been crashing and burning, especially on songs I don't know but also on songs I do. Give me long stretches of one chord ("So What", "Footprints") or tunes mostly in one key ("Autumn Leaves", simpler blues tunes) and I'm fine, but when there are lots of chords and they're moving fast, I am at a loss. I need to beef up my vocab big time so I can even hang.

    So I looked into Steinel's book on building vocab, recognized the term "melodic cells", and remembered I already had a book all about that stuff and better yet it is targeted specifically toward guitar players. Since the beginning of May '19 I've been drilling the heck outta this book, keeping my head down, and trusting the material. Things I haven't historically done. As dingusmingus has said a few times, I'm not sure how all this will work out, if any of it will seep into my playing. It's a concern, but I'm trying to trust that I'm in good hands with Randy.

    To that end, I've been so far taking each group of patterns in chapter 1 (root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, etc.) and working them up to the point where I can play them never-endingly, as Randy suggests. This feels good and convinces me that there's something to this approach. I can blow through quickly cycling dominants with various different approaches, which is nice and becoming reflexive. My next goal is to start applying this stuff to tunes, mixing sections of my own improvisation with these patterns. And instead of running the patterns completely through a cycle, attempting to phrase them in chunks for greater musicality and as a challenge to myself to keep track of where I am in the tune and be able to hop back in at will.

    Anyway, thought I'd revive this thread to share my progress. My fear with devoting myself to any one "approach" is discovering that it's just not applicable like I'd like (Pat Martino's Line Games, for instance, did nothing for me, unfortunately). But I think Randy's onto something and I want to let him lead me for a while. I'll be continually reminding myself to force this material into improvisations over real tunes as I would work on any other vocab building. Anyone else still working through this book? How are you getting on?

    I am glad you found us. I have neglected this particular group lately just because I was been busy with other groups and other projects.

    I agree with you on two fronts. 1. There is definitely something to this approach. The exercises can be tedious but the end result is quite fabulous.
    2. You need to combine this approach with others like the one you found by Mike Steinel.

    Please post your progress, I am certain that it will encourage me and others to return some focus to this group.

  19. #93
    The cellular approach is great. All the benefits aren't obvious from the very beginning , but beyond anything else, it's a great technique book . Really helps with legato swing feel phrasing.

    Does anyone have Randy Vincent's newest book? Just came out and it has no reviews on Amazon that I can see. There was some speculation early on that it possibly overlapped with his previous books mostly. ....Kind of a compilation? Anyway, I'd be curious to know what others think about it, if they have purchased it.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    The cellular approach is great. All the benefits aren't obvious from the very beginning , but beyond anything else, it's a great technique book . Really helps with legato swing feel phrasing.

    Does anyone have Randy Vincent's newest book? Just came out and it has no reviews on Amazon that I can see. There was some speculation early on that it possibly overlapped with his previous books mostly. ....Kind of a compilation? Anyway, I'd be curious to know what others think about it, if they have purchased it.
    Which title are you referring to ?


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  21. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Which title are you referring to ?


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    "The Guitarist's Introduction to Jazz", published in November 2018.

  22. #96

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    I did purchase it but I have not worked on it yet. It is on my list of things to do this summer.
    Maybe another study group in the making ?

  23. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    I did purchase it but I have not worked on it yet. It is on my list of things to do this summer.
    Maybe another study group in the making ?
    So what's the verdict? Is it somewhat an amalgamation of the other books?

  24. #98

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    Not terribly surprised by this, but I blew over a few tunes with a bass player the other week and absolutely none of this material surfaced in my lines. This stuff isn't going to magically appear, so I've flipped through the book and made a checklist of patterns I want to cover that I believe will be the most useful to me over a majority of tunes. As my friend said about learning melodic cells like these, "patterns are useful, they're like the white bread of jazz - it's not the good stuff, but every sandwich has it." I'm omitting patterns with alterations for now, focusing instead on vanilla stuff. I've memorized and drilled root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, 3rd-to-5th, and am finishing up 3rd-to-root patterns. Next, Randy pivots to quick ii-V sequences, slightly modifying the dominant patterns from the earlier part of the book to cover minor chords. I anticipate these patterns coming quickly. So far each successive pattern takes less time to learn and play proficiently. After all that, Randy moves on to longer ii-Vs, stringing the patterns I already know together to form longer lines. I'm thinking this will be a great leap forward in usefulness of this stuff. I've done some learning of ii-V vocab before and it's applicable all over the place, so I'm optimistic that this more modular and vast collection of patterns will take me pretty far, especially over tunes I don't know very well. Long ii-Vs is where my current checklist ends. I'm going to evaluate how useful this amount of work has been before deciding where to go next. I'm still in the keeping my head down phase. Enjoying the act of running through this material. Hopeful that learning just a bit more, then concentrating on applying it to tunes will provide me with the solid baseline for running changes that I need.

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermacd
    Not terribly surprised by this, but I blew over a few tunes with a bass player the other week and absolutely none of this material surfaced in my lines. This stuff isn't going to magically appear, so I've flipped through the book and made a checklist of patterns I want to cover that I believe will be the most useful to me over a majority of tunes. As my friend said about learning melodic cells like these, "patterns are useful, they're like the white bread of jazz - it's not the good stuff, but every sandwich has it." I'm omitting patterns with alterations for now, focusing instead on vanilla stuff. I've memorized and drilled root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, 3rd-to-5th, and am finishing up 3rd-to-root patterns. Next, Randy pivots to quick ii-V sequences, slightly modifying the dominant patterns from the earlier part of the book to cover minor chords. I anticipate these patterns coming quickly. So far each successive pattern takes less time to learn and play proficiently. After all that, Randy moves on to longer ii-Vs, stringing the patterns I already know together to form longer lines. I'm thinking this will be a great leap forward in usefulness of this stuff. I've done some learning of ii-V vocab before and it's applicable all over the place, so I'm optimistic that this more modular and vast collection of patterns will take me pretty far, especially over tunes I don't know very well. Long ii-Vs is where my current checklist ends. I'm going to evaluate how useful this amount of work has been before deciding where to go next. I'm still in the keeping my head down phase. Enjoying the act of running through this material. Hopeful that learning just a bit more, then concentrating on applying it to tunes will provide me with the solid baseline for running changes that I need.
    I agree. These cells do not sound like lines which has made my enthusiasm for them wane. There is some useful material here but you do need to weed your way through some pretty monotonous stuff.
    The ii-V stuff seems like it will be more useful.
    Thanks for your input huntermacd.


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  26. #100

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    Spent some time shedding Jordu these past weeks, putting the Randy Vincent stuff to use as much as possible. Here's a clip of me taking a few choruses, mixing the melodic cells in with general improvisation following my ear. Makes for a good combo.



    I went through the entire first chapter again last night and took note of all the cells Randy outlines. Moving on to another tune, one which doesn't feature rapidly cycling dominants, my plan is to pick a cell for each chord type and run it, much like I'd do when working on arpeggios. I mentioned Mike Steinel's "3 In, 2 Out" stuff in an earlier post. Looks like all of those patterns are mentioned in Randy's book too. Starting to see the utility of this stuff and hearing it come out in my playing. We'll see what happens next.