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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Sure. Which exercises do you want ?

    I will work on it later today.


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    Thank you! Really, any that you feel like doing of the exercises from Cellular we're working on.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    I heard back from him about what some of the Joe Pass examples are. From Randy Vincent:

    If I recall correctly the 1st two examples were from a recording of the John Lewis tune "Django" and the 3rd example is from a Joe Pass original called "C.E.D" from an album called "Sounds of Synannon". Of course those two tunes contain lots of fast-moving dominant cycles. They can also be inserted into other tunes, especially blues and rhythm changes and at many turnarounds. I hope that helps.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Here are Randy Vincent's licks for G7alt to C. These are coming from pages 23 - 26 of his book Line Games.

    105 - 114

    115 - 122

    Let me know what you think
    These sound great. Are you incorporating these exercises into the Cellular stuff, or its own thing?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I have this book. Have a look at it occasionally. Looking at it today, I'm struck by what occurred to me the first few times I looked at it as well: it presents some real technical challenges in articulating the shifts smoothly.

    I find that when I play through initially, without a lot of thought, there's a lot of extraneous thumb movement and hand movement generally. What I initially arrived at this morning as being probably the most efficient movement for exercise 1, for example, is to shift on the pick-up of the new position.

    So, I'm starting with thumb behind second finger at the beginning , and then, shifting my thumb on the and-of-3 (on the would-be stretch) to be exactly behind the 1st finger, with the first finger then sliding "into position" on beat 3.

    What a horrible mess to describe in text. I may do short a video of me doing this , to see if I can get Christian or someone to look at it and offer thoughts/help. I think the technical aspect of this is a big part. Musically and otherwise they're pretty straightforward.

    Oh, incidentally, I found the easiest way to work on this shift, the way I'm talking about, is to start on the pick up to beat 3, with index finger directly behind the thumb, and slidingthe index finger into beat 3. Somehow harder for me to get in the groove starting at the beginning of the pattern.

    TL;DR: Are you all shifting your thumb on the and-of-3 or somewhere else? I would think that really SWINGING the slide would be about 90% of getting this.
    Good Stuff Matt !!

    Please post a video if you can. I would to "see" what you are "saying".

    I haven't really thought of these pieces in that sort of technical way until now. I will think about it and to post something intelligent soon.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Fletcher View Post
    These sound great. Are you incorporating these exercises into the Cellular stuff, or its own thing?
    I found that "Line Games" and "Cellular Approach" have some overlap.

    While "Cellular Approach" feels more technical at this point and "Line Games" is perhaps a bit more practical. They both stress chord tones that lead you to the next chord.

    This study group is based on "Cellular Approach" but I thought that since there is some overlap with "Line Games" in certain sections that I should include some of the exercises.

  7. #56
    Holy cow, 1-12 is insane! Got this under my fingers a little, and kept staring at my hands in bewilderment.

    I'm admittedly mostly a position player, but I never would have thought to play something that way in a million years. Very cool on several levels, technically and otherwise.

  8. #57

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    I had the R.V. books that a great player let me borrow, as i was hoping to expand my vocabulary and he recommended them for a number of nuances which he liked.. I found the book a bit misleading but again the "how to" of randy vincent speaks for a lot. He lays a lot of this material out in the order he found out about it. That doesnt mean that you will find the first page, to last page the best way to go through the book.. I didnt read all the comments on this thread so if this has been said, apologies. I think its a good idea to browse the book and find what parts work for you. After being a teacher for so long, Ive found that the majority of books are this way. (I am a child of 3 generations of professors and find the way people learn to be worth studying on its own) Point being, what helped me is to go through each chapter, and find out what you CAN understand and make use of, and work from there. It doesnt matter if it seems uninformed at the moment, get what you can out of the books you have on the instrument and try to keep pushing that material into your playing using backing tracks at like 40bpm. if you look at "line games" its a super hip book filled with tons of info and yet its horribly laid out for some folks, including myself. I did however find two really awesome chapters of material that specifically applied to information i didnt have the best grasp of. and that informed my playing a lot. feel free to beat me up over the long post.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonious1 View Post
    I had the R.V. books that a great player let me borrow, as i was hoping to expand my vocabulary and he recommended them for a number of nuances which he liked.. I found the book a bit misleading but again the "how to" of randy vincent speaks for a lot. He lays a lot of this material out in the order he found out about it. That doesnt mean that you will find the first page, to last page the best way to go through the book.. I didnt read all the comments on this thread so if this has been said, apologies. I think its a good idea to browse the book and find what parts work for you. After being a teacher for so long, Ive found that the majority of books are this way. (I am a child of 3 generations of professors and find the way people learn to be worth studying on its own) Point being, what helped me is to go through each chapter, and find out what you CAN understand and make use of, and work from there. It doesnt matter if it seems uninformed at the moment, get what you can out of the books you have on the instrument and try to keep pushing that material into your playing using backing tracks at like 40bpm. if you look at "line games" its a super hip book filled with tons of info and yet its horribly laid out for some folks, including myself. I did however find two really awesome chapters of material that specifically applied to information i didnt have the best grasp of. and that informed my playing a lot. feel free to beat me up over the long post.
    I feel that for the purposes of this group we are going through the book in order and I personally am going to pluck out exercises from "Line Games" that seem to correspond.


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  10. #59

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    Hello All

    I'm Daniel. I have studied jazz off and on and I consider myself beginner/intermediate in Jazz. I just bought the cellular book and wish to participate in this group and process. Any tips? Do you guys regularly post vids etc? Thanks

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmdaniel View Post
    Hello All

    I'm Daniel. I have studied jazz off and on and I consider myself beginner/intermediate in Jazz. I just bought the cellular book and wish to participate in this group and process. Any tips? Do you guys regularly post vids etc? Thanks
    Hi Daniel,

    We would love to have you participate in this group. I would suggest going to the beginning of the thread and check out what we have done so far. I would also suggest starting from the beginning of the book.

    Check out posts #9 and #25 for detailed description of the plan.

    Here is a schedule that I made but have been unable to stick to. It is more or less meant as a rough guide.

    Randy Vincent - Cellular Approach


    1-1 through 1-16 May 2017
    1-17 through 1-29 June 2017
    1-30 through 1-46 July 2017
    1-47 through 1-56 August 2017
    1-57 through 1-70 September 2017
    1-71 through 1-82 October 2017
    1-83 through 1-92 November 2017
    1-93 through 1-106 December 2017

  12. #61

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    I've been "lurking" for a bit as the idea of this study group seemed very appealing and I did acquire the book.

    The time it took to get the Cellular Approach though, has put me well behind the group, but I have a further problem in that the Video DailyMotion site has now produced two malware attacks and one virus on my iMac.

    I did get it settled but I am hesitant to view things on this site.

    I was wondering if anyone has had similar experience or if I have a local problem and if the OP might consider a uTube channel.

    Thanks for starting this thread; I believe there is a great deal of good information here.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    I've been "lurking" for a bit as the idea of this study group seemed very appealing and I did acquire the book.

    The time it took to get the Cellular Approach though, has put me well behind the group, but I have a further problem in that the Video DailyMotion site has now produced two malware attacks and one virus on my iMac.

    I did get it settled but I am hesitant to view things on this site.

    I was wondering if anyone has had similar experience or if I have a local problem and if the OP might consider a uTube channel.

    Thanks for starting this thread; I believe there is a great deal of good information here.
    I have not had any problems with Daily Motion. I could send you my videos through some other method if you wish


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  14. #63

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    This is a fantastic book for several reasons:

    1. Learning the fretboard
    2. Woodshedding turnarounds and II-V's.
    3. Non-scalar thinking

    I see it as scaffolding really. When I am reading stuff from Charlie Parker omnibook for example I can see all the lines relating to this scaffold and cells.

    All Randy's books get 5 stars from me.

    In fact most of Sher Music Publishings books. But Randy's are top.

  15. #64

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    A few people have asked me for mp3's of the studies recorded so far so here they are
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Doublea A; 09-27-2017 at 09:32 PM.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    A few people have asked me for mp3's of the studies recorded so far so here they are
    Ok! Thanks so much Doublea A for your time.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  17. #66

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    Sounds like we are disregarding the slurs for the moment.

    Is that to get the concepts down moving from string set to string set? (If so I get it.)

    I note that the suggested fingering (ie. pg 3 Ex.1-6 allows for the slur Eb-D with the index finger but the previous one G-F would require a pull off).

    Just "fanning" through the book, I notice much of this.

    Mr. Vincent states in the preface @ iii that the straight line between same finger is a slur!

    Don't mean to nit pick but it would effect fingering, I believe.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Sounds like we are disregarding the slurs for the moment.

    Is that to get the concepts down moving from string set to string set? (If so I get it.)

    I note that the suggested fingering (ie. pg 3 Ex.1-6 allows for the slur Eb-D with the index finger but the previous one G-F would require a pull off).

    Just "fanning" through the book, I notice much of this.

    Mr. Vincent states in the preface @ iii that the straight line between same finger is a slur!

    Don't mean to nit pick but it would effect fingering, I believe.
    Hi Wilson,

    I am disregarding the slurs at the moment and focusing on the shapes and the string sets.

    I always try to attach new learning to something I already know, thus, I am trying to visualize the cells within the context of the chord progression. This in turn affects fingering. In a few cases I have veered away from the suggested fingerlings.

    The long term goal is to take the Cellular approach and apply it to performance pieces.


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  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Hi Wilson,

    I am disregarding the slurs at the moment and focusing on the shapes and the string sets.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach (and other books)-cellularmodes-png

    OK. I get what you're saying.
    I'm looking at these cells through the modes just to see the materials that will be local to the phrases.
    Note the dominants suggest the major keys and thus the modes.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Hi Wilson,
    I am disregarding the slurs at the moment and focusing on the shapes and the string sets.

    I always try to attach new learning to something I already know, thus, I am trying to visualize the cells within the context of the chord progression.

    The long term goal is to take the Cellular approach and apply it to performance pieces.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    That's exactly what I'm after too, so I'm posting my notebook graphics here so everyone can see how these phrases "fit" into each mode.

    I've noticed recently that I can put the book away for a day and still recall the two-bar root to root phrases just by visualizing them in the modes.
    (The chord suggests the key, the key maps out the fretboard by modes.)

    This is what I'm after although I know it may not be for everyone; also the concept may completely fall apart when things get more involved.

    Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach (and other books)-root-root-two-bar-png
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    That's exactly what I'm after too, so I'm posting my notebook graphics here so everyone can see how these phrases "fit" into each mode.

    I've noticed recently that I can put the book away for a day and still recall the two-bar root to root phrases just by visualizing them in the modes.
    (The chord suggests the key, the key maps out the fretboard by modes.)

    This is what I'm after although I know it may not be for everyone; also the concept may completely fall apart when things get more involved.

    Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach (and other books)-root-root-two-bar-png
    Why are thinking in terms of Phrygian, Locrian and Aeolian ?

    Isn’t it easier to just think of the shapes or thinking of everything as dominant or Mixolydian ?

    I am questioning you, I am just curious about your approach.


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  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Why are thinking in terms of Phrygian, Locrian and Aeolian ?

    Isn’t it easier to just think of the shapes or thinking of everything as dominant or Mixolydian ?

    I am questioning you, I am just curious about your approach.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm using the MODE system just as I would the C-A-G-E-D system to reveal the stops in 8 positions;
    what's good for the pentatonic is usable for the diatonic IMHO.

    I think that just after developing this material and the phrases implied, we'll be "dropped off" in the middle of some progression and we better know where we are.

    Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach (and other books)-run-aeolian-png
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  23. #72

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    Hi guys,

    I know that my schedule has been radically thrown out the window but here is my most recent contributions to this group

    Cellular Approach 1-17 to 1-19

    Cellular Approach 1-20 to 1-23

    Let me know what you think

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Hi guys,

    I know that my schedule has been radically thrown out the window but here is my most recent contributions to this group

    Cellular Approach 1-17 to 1-19

    Cellular Approach 1-20 to 1-23

    Let me know what you think
    Do you have the ireal pro files useful to work with this book? I hate the interface and writing them myself is a pain ITA

    Inviato dal mio GT-I9060I utilizzando Tapatalk

  25. #74

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    I had the Cellular book in the shelf, even if I had noticed its immense power, like all non "scale centric" books (Bergonzi "Melodic structures", Andrew Green "Jazz Guitar Structures", etc..).


    This study group convinced me to study it seriously.


    Like Wilson 1, I always locate any musical idea (turnarounds, cycles, quick and long ii-Vs) into CAGED system, in order to make any lick "independent" from the key and have a "movable" repertoire of phrases.


    IMHO the positions are only five (Ted Greene uses seven positions, instead). You can name them "Locrian", "Dorian", "Phrygian", "Mixolydian" and "Aeolian", or use whatever name convention that helps you to visualize the position shape on the freatboard...


    But, on the first reading of the book, I'm just following the fingerings suggested by Mr. Vincent "to the letter", postponing any correlation to CAGED system later, on the 2nd reading of the book.


    I'm currently around 1-53 of the book ("3rd to 5th" cycles).


    I will post some contribution (mp3, pdf or something else) once I complete the remaining cells.


    Cheers.
    Last edited by Vinz; 12-28-2017 at 07:19 AM.

  26. #75

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    Please suggestions about the order in which Mr Vincent's books should be read as a logical progression?

    Thanks

  27. #76

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    chords:

    Three Note Voicing and Beyond
    The Drop 2 book

    lines:

    Line Games
    Cellular Approach


    thats the basic order Randy has in mind I believe, but I think he wrote the drop 2 book before the 3 note chord book, the drop 2 has a more specific subject and the 3note voicings is more general

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe View Post
    Do you have the ireal pro files useful to work with this book? I hate the interface and writing them myself is a pain ITA

    Inviato dal mio GT-I9060I utilizzando Tapatalk
    Send me your email address and I will send you the iReal pro files


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Send me your email address and I will send you the iReal pro files


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Benjamindeornelas@gmail.com thanks!

    Inviato dal mio GT-I9060I utilizzando Tapatalk

  30. #79

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    Here are examples 1-17 through 1-19

    1-17 to 1-19

  31. #80

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    Here are Examples 1-20 through 1-23

    1-20 to 1-23

  32. #81

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    So, I’ve been continuing to use this book, on and off, for about a year now, all still on Chapter One. Some observations:

    1. I think if you spend a lot of time with it to internalize the cells, it can help your playing, but I’m still not sure exactly how. Equivocal, I know.
    2. I know that it’s helped my technique, and my fretboard familiarity, which is pretty key for intermediate players like me.
    3. I'm less sure of what influence it's had on my improvisations. I think of these cells as routes to get from one place to another, such as the root of one chord, to the third of another. They don’t have a “flavor” of their own. That presumably comes in how you use them, through ornamentation and rhythm.
    4. To internalize these, I’ve been moving beyond the specific exercises in the book. I’ve found it helpful to take a pair of cells through the circle of fourths in one key, and also to use it everywhere possible over a tune. (I think this is somewhat similar to what comes in chapters 2 and 3).
    5. The book’s treatment of the “supplemental cells” starting on page 43 is a little curious. Up to that point, Vincent spends a lot of time on each cell, with lots of permutations and fingerings. By contrast, each of the cells in the supplemental cells section is simply listed, and the user needs to figure out how to practice it. So, those 6 pages, with 30 exercises actually has as much, if not more, “meat” than the previous 43 pages with 144 exercises. I think that’s fine, it’s just an interesting change in approach.
    6. On pages 49-61, Vincent goes through “chromatic ii-V sequences.” For example, Dmi7 – G7, C#mi7-F#7, etc. Because he writes out an example of pretty much every cell and lots permutations, I’ve been using that as a review for the whole chapter that comes before.

  33. #82

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    Great points dingusmingus.

    1 and 2. I think that these are primarily technical exercises and all technical exercises are aimed at improving technique.

    3. I think that your third point is right on. I am planning on recording several examples of situations where this approach is used in a less than obvious manner.

    4. Great idea !!

    5 and 6. I haven't got that far yet.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    1 and 2. I think that these are primarily technical exercises and all technical exercises are aimed at improving technique.
    Definitely! It's probably an obvious point, but I had kind of been thinking of the book as a source of vocabulary, as opposed to a technique book.

    Here is how Vincent describes it in the introduction:
    Like my previous book Line Games, this book is a collection of things to practice on the guitar that will help develop the vocabulary of jazz improvisation while simultaneously developing and maintain single-note technique.

  35. #84
    It's a vocabulary book, but it starts out with a very niche application: 2-beat dominant chord cycling. Later he starts applying it to longer changes and different changes like 2-5-1's etc. But it's not merely technical.

    Cycling dominants quickly is a legitimate nut to crack. Perhaps he is choosing to begin with something that hasn't been covered to-death in other places.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-28-2018 at 04:14 PM.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    It's a vocabulary book, but it starts out with a very niche application: 2-beat dominant chord cycling. Later he starts applying it to longer changes and different changes like 2-5-1's etc. But it's not merely technical.

    Cycling dominants quickly is a legitimate not to crack. Perhaps he is choosing to begin with something that hasn't been covered to-death in other places.
    Yes, I'm sure you're right--it is both vocab and technique, as the introduction states. (And perhaps the distinction between vocab and technique is illusory?)

    I'm looking forward to chapters 2 and 3, but I've already gotten a preview from using the cells over tunes, I think.

  37. #86

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    I completed chapter one and started the repetitions of all cells from the beginning, because I want to master them till the point I don't have to think while I play.

    Indeed, the main advantage of the cells and the reason why Mr. Vincent might have started to apply them to the quick dominant cycles is that you simply DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO THINK when you play the quick cycles at speed (e.g. in the turnbacks).

    All you can do is to start with the first note of the first cell and then link the cells together, where the only decision you can take when the chord change is to go up or down to the guitar register.

    The first thing that I learnt with these cells is to NOT try relate them to the CAGED system, as I initially intended to do (see my previous post)...

    It's far easier to learn a couple of fingerings of each cell on each string, as explained in the book.

    So, you need to locate the first note of the cell in the fretboard, which is very easy for the root-to-root cells, where you need to locate the roots:

    Randy Vincent's Cellular Approach (and other books)-untitled-jpg

    In order to internalize the sound of each cell, I am applying them singularly to the tunes, not mixing them, at least at the beginning...

    I attach one chorus of my improvisation on Jordu (tune used in chapter one, ex.1-93).

    The file format is ".tg", you can open, edit and play it with TuxGuitar (free guitar editor tool, you can find it on the web).

    I know that it is a very poor improvisation by using the root-to-root cells only, but I think it will sound much better with the other cells.

    More examples will come...
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Vinz; 03-06-2018 at 05:44 PM.

  38. #87

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    Very Good !!
    Thanks for that

  39. #88

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    Here are exercises 1 - 24 through 1- 27.

    Exercises 1 - 24 and 1 - 25

    Exercise 1 - 26

    Exercise 1- 27

  40. #89

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    This exercise uses the 3rd-oriented patterns with octave displacement explained in the book on ex. 1.68A, 1-68B, 1-68C, 1-71, 1-72.


    Two fingerings are used, both in position and with shifts. Fingerings are showed above the staff.


    With these you can play a never-ending 3rd-oriented cycles from any location on the fingerboard.


    I do this kind of exercise for any pattern on chapter 1 to internalize the fingerings.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by seaguitar View Post
    NOTICE: This thread was begun some time ago and has been merged with the new Study Group working on Mr. Vincent's book.
    Please see post #22 below for a videotaped intro to the study group. (17 April 2017)


    As I'm progressing in my jazz playing, I'm trying to find patterns that can be incorporated into instinct for the language while improvising. Certainly transcribing helps, but it's nice to also find well laid out exercises. Have any of you used the Vincent book? Is the approach one that has payoff -- I.e incorporate dominant cycles that can be transformed into II-V and other progressions? Am curious before I spend a lot of time on it. He doesn't really provide much explanation on why he is presenting things the way he is.
    i find it a great book i ll start it this week end

  42. #91

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    Hello all! I got ahold of this book (Cellular Approach) about a year and a half ago and did what I do with most books I get: worked through the first few pages, didn't think it was immediately helpful to my playing, flipped forward to see where it was leading me, then lost interest.

    Then I got really, really into Julian Lage (huge inspiration to me and former pupil of Randy). And did plenty of playing with and talking to a sax player friend of mine who recommended stuff by Mike Steinel, specifically targeting change running (http://www.mikesteinel.com/resources...ge-Running.pdf) and vocabulary building (Building a Jazz Vocabulary by Mike Steinel). I attend a local jam each week and have steadily been crashing and burning, especially on songs I don't know but also on songs I do. Give me long stretches of one chord ("So What", "Footprints") or tunes mostly in one key ("Autumn Leaves", simpler blues tunes) and I'm fine, but when there are lots of chords and they're moving fast, I am at a loss. I need to beef up my vocab big time so I can even hang.

    So I looked into Steinel's book on building vocab, recognized the term "melodic cells", and remembered I already had a book all about that stuff and better yet it is targeted specifically toward guitar players. Since the beginning of May '19 I've been drilling the heck outta this book, keeping my head down, and trusting the material. Things I haven't historically done. As dingusmingus has said a few times, I'm not sure how all this will work out, if any of it will seep into my playing. It's a concern, but I'm trying to trust that I'm in good hands with Randy.

    To that end, I've been so far taking each group of patterns in chapter 1 (root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, etc.) and working them up to the point where I can play them never-endingly, as Randy suggests. This feels good and convinces me that there's something to this approach. I can blow through quickly cycling dominants with various different approaches, which is nice and becoming reflexive. My next goal is to start applying this stuff to tunes, mixing sections of my own improvisation with these patterns. And instead of running the patterns completely through a cycle, attempting to phrase them in chunks for greater musicality and as a challenge to myself to keep track of where I am in the tune and be able to hop back in at will.

    Anyway, thought I'd revive this thread to share my progress. My fear with devoting myself to any one "approach" is discovering that it's just not applicable like I'd like (Pat Martino's Line Games, for instance, did nothing for me, unfortunately). But I think Randy's onto something and I want to let him lead me for a while. I'll be continually reminding myself to force this material into improvisations over real tunes as I would work on any other vocab building. Anyone else still working through this book? How are you getting on?

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermacd View Post
    Hello all! I got ahold of this book (Cellular Approach) about a year and a half ago and did what I do with most books I get: worked through the first few pages, didn't think it was immediately helpful to my playing, flipped forward to see where it was leading me, then lost interest.

    Then I got really, really into Julian Lage (huge inspiration to me and former pupil of Randy). And did plenty of playing with and talking to a sax player friend of mine who recommended stuff by Mike Steinel, specifically targeting change running (http://www.mikesteinel.com/resources...ge-Running.pdf) and vocabulary building (Building a Jazz Vocabulary by Mike Steinel). I attend a local jam each week and have steadily been crashing and burning, especially on songs I don't know but also on songs I do. Give me long stretches of one chord ("So What", "Footprints") or tunes mostly in one key ("Autumn Leaves", simpler blues tunes) and I'm fine, but when there are lots of chords and they're moving fast, I am at a loss. I need to beef up my vocab big time so I can even hang.

    So I looked into Steinel's book on building vocab, recognized the term "melodic cells", and remembered I already had a book all about that stuff and better yet it is targeted specifically toward guitar players. Since the beginning of May '19 I've been drilling the heck outta this book, keeping my head down, and trusting the material. Things I haven't historically done. As dingusmingus has said a few times, I'm not sure how all this will work out, if any of it will seep into my playing. It's a concern, but I'm trying to trust that I'm in good hands with Randy.

    To that end, I've been so far taking each group of patterns in chapter 1 (root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, etc.) and working them up to the point where I can play them never-endingly, as Randy suggests. This feels good and convinces me that there's something to this approach. I can blow through quickly cycling dominants with various different approaches, which is nice and becoming reflexive. My next goal is to start applying this stuff to tunes, mixing sections of my own improvisation with these patterns. And instead of running the patterns completely through a cycle, attempting to phrase them in chunks for greater musicality and as a challenge to myself to keep track of where I am in the tune and be able to hop back in at will.

    Anyway, thought I'd revive this thread to share my progress. My fear with devoting myself to any one "approach" is discovering that it's just not applicable like I'd like (Pat Martino's Line Games, for instance, did nothing for me, unfortunately). But I think Randy's onto something and I want to let him lead me for a while. I'll be continually reminding myself to force this material into improvisations over real tunes as I would work on any other vocab building. Anyone else still working through this book? How are you getting on?

    I am glad you found us. I have neglected this particular group lately just because I was been busy with other groups and other projects.

    I agree with you on two fronts. 1. There is definitely something to this approach. The exercises can be tedious but the end result is quite fabulous.
    2. You need to combine this approach with others like the one you found by Mike Steinel.

    Please post your progress, I am certain that it will encourage me and others to return some focus to this group.

  44. #93
    The cellular approach is great. All the benefits aren't obvious from the very beginning , but beyond anything else, it's a great technique book . Really helps with legato swing feel phrasing.

    Does anyone have Randy Vincent's newest book? Just came out and it has no reviews on Amazon that I can see. There was some speculation early on that it possibly overlapped with his previous books mostly. ....Kind of a compilation? Anyway, I'd be curious to know what others think about it, if they have purchased it.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    The cellular approach is great. All the benefits aren't obvious from the very beginning , but beyond anything else, it's a great technique book . Really helps with legato swing feel phrasing.

    Does anyone have Randy Vincent's newest book? Just came out and it has no reviews on Amazon that I can see. There was some speculation early on that it possibly overlapped with his previous books mostly. ....Kind of a compilation? Anyway, I'd be curious to know what others think about it, if they have purchased it.
    Which title are you referring to ?


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  46. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Which title are you referring to ?


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    "The Guitarist's Introduction to Jazz", published in November 2018.

  47. #96

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    I did purchase it but I have not worked on it yet. It is on my list of things to do this summer.
    Maybe another study group in the making ?

  48. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    I did purchase it but I have not worked on it yet. It is on my list of things to do this summer.
    Maybe another study group in the making ?
    So what's the verdict? Is it somewhat an amalgamation of the other books?

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    So what's the verdict? Is it somewhat an amalgamation of the other books?
    The first two parts have a lot in common with his other Guitar voicing books.

    The third part looks much more interesting. This is where he applies his theory to standards.

    Here is a look at the Table of contents


  50. #99

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    Not terribly surprised by this, but I blew over a few tunes with a bass player the other week and absolutely none of this material surfaced in my lines. This stuff isn't going to magically appear, so I've flipped through the book and made a checklist of patterns I want to cover that I believe will be the most useful to me over a majority of tunes. As my friend said about learning melodic cells like these, "patterns are useful, they're like the white bread of jazz - it's not the good stuff, but every sandwich has it." I'm omitting patterns with alterations for now, focusing instead on vanilla stuff. I've memorized and drilled root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, 3rd-to-5th, and am finishing up 3rd-to-root patterns. Next, Randy pivots to quick ii-V sequences, slightly modifying the dominant patterns from the earlier part of the book to cover minor chords. I anticipate these patterns coming quickly. So far each successive pattern takes less time to learn and play proficiently. After all that, Randy moves on to longer ii-Vs, stringing the patterns I already know together to form longer lines. I'm thinking this will be a great leap forward in usefulness of this stuff. I've done some learning of ii-V vocab before and it's applicable all over the place, so I'm optimistic that this more modular and vast collection of patterns will take me pretty far, especially over tunes I don't know very well. Long ii-Vs is where my current checklist ends. I'm going to evaluate how useful this amount of work has been before deciding where to go next. I'm still in the keeping my head down phase. Enjoying the act of running through this material. Hopeful that learning just a bit more, then concentrating on applying it to tunes will provide me with the solid baseline for running changes that I need.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermacd View Post
    Not terribly surprised by this, but I blew over a few tunes with a bass player the other week and absolutely none of this material surfaced in my lines. This stuff isn't going to magically appear, so I've flipped through the book and made a checklist of patterns I want to cover that I believe will be the most useful to me over a majority of tunes. As my friend said about learning melodic cells like these, "patterns are useful, they're like the white bread of jazz - it's not the good stuff, but every sandwich has it." I'm omitting patterns with alterations for now, focusing instead on vanilla stuff. I've memorized and drilled root-to-root, 3rd-to-3rd, 3rd-to-5th, and am finishing up 3rd-to-root patterns. Next, Randy pivots to quick ii-V sequences, slightly modifying the dominant patterns from the earlier part of the book to cover minor chords. I anticipate these patterns coming quickly. So far each successive pattern takes less time to learn and play proficiently. After all that, Randy moves on to longer ii-Vs, stringing the patterns I already know together to form longer lines. I'm thinking this will be a great leap forward in usefulness of this stuff. I've done some learning of ii-V vocab before and it's applicable all over the place, so I'm optimistic that this more modular and vast collection of patterns will take me pretty far, especially over tunes I don't know very well. Long ii-Vs is where my current checklist ends. I'm going to evaluate how useful this amount of work has been before deciding where to go next. I'm still in the keeping my head down phase. Enjoying the act of running through this material. Hopeful that learning just a bit more, then concentrating on applying it to tunes will provide me with the solid baseline for running changes that I need.
    I agree. These cells do not sound like lines which has made my enthusiasm for them wane. There is some useful material here but you do need to weed your way through some pretty monotonous stuff.
    The ii-V stuff seems like it will be more useful.
    Thanks for your input huntermacd.


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