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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    I have decided to join in after all, and I will be working through Satin Doll with you lot.

    I have been thinking about how to get this down, so that I can see a chord on a lead sheet, and then have a line that will fit.

    So what do you think about this approach?

    Firstly, learn the lines as written.

    Then see where the line starts per bar or chord, then work out a visual cue on the fretboard that I can use as a reference point.

    So for example in bar 1 Dm7/G7. this line starts with a E, so that cue could be find D 5th string root on the fret board then move up 2 frets to start the line on the E.
    That sounds like a lot of thinking. I will take a close look at the lines (when it arrives, I ordered it on Tuesday) and try to detail my approach. See if it works for you.


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  3. #52

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    "this line starts with a E, "

    I feel like the E is a passing note to the F. Someone earlier talked about these first bars feeling like an FMaj7. Maybe, that would change just change you're approach a little

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  4. #53

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    I don't see the E as a passing tone, if I am right the E is a scale tone, the 9th?

    In bar 3 & 4 we get Em7/A7. Try playing the same line as in bar 1 & 2 but move it up 2 frets starting on f#. How does that sound over the chords?

    If I am understanding what Mr Conti is teaching us, I have learnt something, if not please put me straight.

  5. #54

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    Here's another try with a backing track.



    Enjoying the Study Group.

    Mike

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    I don't see the E as a passing tone, if I am right the E is a scale tone, the 9th?

    In bar 3 & 4 we get Em7/A7. Try playing the same line as in bar 1 & 2 but move it up 2 frets starting on f#. How does that sound over the chords?

    If I am understanding what Mr Conti is teaching us, I have learnt something, if not please put me straight.
    I tend to agree with you. Playing an Fmaj7 over the relative minor, the E becomes the 9th of Dm7. Using the E as an approach note is just putting the E in the bass of the Fmaj7 arpeggio over a Dm7 chord.

    Mike

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    I have decided to join in after all, and I will be working through Satin Doll with you lot.

    I have been thinking about how to get this down, so that I can see a chord on a lead sheet, and then have a line that will fit.

    Welcome aboard! Glad you're starting up with us.

    A word of caution about your prospective approach. At this point, "do what you gotta do"; however, keep in mind that a big part of Conti's approach lies in using lines that may dance over several chord changes. He's not playing "chord to chord." Now, if that doesn't make sense, that's fine. Just learn the lines and play them. Make them second nature. Experiment with them. The more you learn them and play them, the more sense you will be able to make of how they work. But first, get 'em under your fingers.

  8. #57

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    Mine arrived today! Hope to get started with the solo over the weekend and post something on Monday!

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Welcome aboard! Glad you're starting up with us.

    A word of caution about your prospective approach. At this point, "do what you gotta do"; however, keep in mind that a big part of Conti's approach lies in using lines that may dance over several chord changes. He's not playing "chord to chord." Now, if that doesn't make sense, that's fine. Just learn the lines and play them. Make them second nature. Experiment with them. The more you learn them and play them, the more sense you will be able to make of how they work. But first, get 'em under your fingers.
    I'm just taking Conti at his word on this. He's the teacher -- I'm the student, so if he says to just play, and don't analyze, that's what I'm going to do.

    He emphasizes this over and over throughout the "Narrative" section prior to the lesson solos, and several times during the "Satin Doll" lesson itself.

    At 11:15 in the "Narrative", Conti says:

    "I want to show you how to make music. Then, I want to show you -- in that Project 4 -- how to 'connect the dots', and take what I show you in the first three projects; and then take it to the fourth project and show you how to re-employ these things."

    I've spent the last decade over-thinking jazz, and getting nowhere. It isn't that Conti doesn't want his students to think . . . he just wants them to play first -- so I'm just gonna play until I get to Project 4.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by snailspace
    I'm just taking Conti at his word on this. He's the teacher -- I'm the student, so if he says to just play, and don't analyze, that's what I'm going to do.

    He emphasizes this over and over throughout the "Narrative" section prior to the lesson solos, and several times during the "Satin Doll" lesson itself.

    At 11:15 in the "Narrative", Conti says:

    "I want to show you how to make music. Then, I want to show you -- in that Project 4 -- how to 'connect the dots', and take what I show you in the first three projects; and then take it to the fourth project and show you how to re-employ these things."

    I've spent the last decade over-thinking jazz, and getting nowhere. It isn't that Conti doesn't want his students to think . . . he just wants them to play first -- so I'm just gonna play until I get to Project 4.
    I totally agree with Conti's approach to playing your instrument. Conti does give some insight into what he does in another course study. Trying to connect the dots.

    One thing I've noticed when learning the various projects is I will catch myself putting in previously learned lines. I do agree the lines will in some cases be unconsciously re-employed in other tunes.

    Thanks for the reminder.

    Mike

  11. #60

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    What are our deadlines again?

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    What are our deadlines again?
    I don't think we have anything firm yet, since we were waiting for DVDs to arrive (which they did very quickly -- kudos to all at Pinnacle!).

    Now that everyone will have a chance to begin working with the material, we might find that we can/should adjust our pace.

    This might be a good time for everyone to to view the "Narrative" portion of the DVD and work through the solo -- to see how much of it you can learn over the weekend. Remember: when Conti says to "master" these lines, he's talking about being able to play the solo all the way through at a tempo of 80-85 bpm (he says this at around the 50:56 mark at the end of Project 1) -- faster if you're able, but this is sufficient, according to RC.
    Last edited by snailspace; 03-03-2017 at 11:59 PM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    What are our deadlines again?
    We have DEADLINES?! (Sounds like a description of my practice session today.

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  14. #63

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    Sorry, I was probably getting ahead of myself, I will get on with learning the solos for now.


  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    Sorry, I was probably getting ahead of myself, I will get on with learning the solos for now.

    It's all good. This group belongs to all of us, and just because I give my view doesn't mean your view doesn't matter, or that your questions don't count.

    The thing you want to know about is valid, and seems to be something that some will want to discuss. As for me, I know that once I go down that particular rabbit hole, I tend to do more talking than playing -- which has gotten me nowhere. I just want to play, and -- since I've already second-guessed every teacher/author I've ever encountered -- I don't want to do much more than take the advice of a mentor (Conti) who knows far more than I ever will. However, some people can talk and play, and there's no reason you and/or they can't do that here.

    Personally, I'm just trying to stay focused on the things I know I need -- but your needs are likely to be different. So, ask your questions, and discuss what you want to discuss. The two major guidelines here are to keep moving forward yourself, and to encourage others as they attempt to do the same.

    Cheers!

  16. #65

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    No you are right, please don't back track and try to appease me. I did ask for opinion, so when 3 people tell me that I am going about something the wrong way I would be foolish not to listen.

  17. #66

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    I like deadlines. My copy has not arrived yet. However, I prefer to work towards a date rather than have everyone be all over the place.


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  18. #67

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    I'm in. Ordered the DVD yesterday. Mike

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by hegedusmj
    I'm in. Ordered the DVD yesterday. Mike
    That's great -- welcome to the group!

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by snailspace

    This might be a good time for everyone to to view the "Narrative" portion of the DVD and work through the solo -- to see how much of it you can learn over the weekend. Remember: when Conti says to "master" these lines, he's talking about being able to play the solo all the way through at a tempo of 80-85 bpm (he says this at around the 50:56 mark at the end of Project 1) -- faster if you're able, but this is sufficient, according to RC.
    Good point. The first step is to get the material "under your fingers." Getting it fast(er) is a separate matter. And part of that is learning the lines as lines---as chunks of notes or phrases. (One phrase may run for two measures or more.) It takes time for to feel at home with the lines. The amount of time varies from player to player and also from line to line. A player may struggle with one line for a month while another line from the same solo falls immediately under his fingers.

  21. #70

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    To those in the group are returning to TTI after having worked with it in the past, here's something I'm curious to know (if you remember): how long did it take you to learn the solo? By "learn the solo," I mean to know all of the lines and be able to play it through from start to finish without making any egregious flubs.

    If memory serves, I think I knew all of the parts by the time I got to the end of Conti's lesson, and was able to play it completely through --slowly -- after a couple more sessions (2-3 hours, tops). After that, it was all about playing the whole thing, over and over, until my fingers knew where to go. A couple hundred reps, and I was ready to move on to the next solo.

    The reason I ask is because, in my opinion, eight bars a week is a pretty slow pace for a set of lines that Conti calls an "entry-level" solo. It's not one of his advanced solos, it's not Jimmy Raney, and it's not "Donna Lee." I can see those things taking that kind of time, but not this. None of these solos seem much more complicated than the heads to their respective tunes, and -- in a video that gets a lot of mention on the forum -- Frank Vignola and Bucky Pizzarelli talk about learning to play by learning tunes, and advocate learning a whole new tune every week. Compared to that, an 8-bar-per-week clip for learning a simple solo seems like, well . . . a snail's pace.

    That's what I think . . . but what do you think?
    Last edited by snailspace; 03-04-2017 at 09:03 PM. Reason: formatting

  22. #71

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    My lot in life (i.e., working stiff first, guitar hobbyist second) allows anywhere from 5-10 hours per week to practice/play the guitar. During that time I work on my 2017 goals which includes 1) building a chord-melody repertoire, 2) Completing Conti's Intros and Endings, 3) Review previous lessons or material (e.g., Remler or Bruno Hot Lick Videos), and 4) Engage with other musicians (this study group counts toward this goal).

    I'm willing to go as fast or slow as the group wants but I estimate that I'll have 30 minutes a night to work on Satin Doll. At my pace, that feels like 8-16 bars per week.

    Cheers,
    Joe

  23. #72

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    This group is hopping!

  24. #73

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    Conti's material was my introduction to jazz. My main interest was chord melody so I purchased The Chord Melody Assembly Line and The Formula. I've arranged a few jazz standards using his method and have them written out in Guitar Pro files. A lot of the jazz chords were new to me so I struggled learning them. I am getting better with a lot of practice time.

    In the meantime I was hooked on the Conti lessons. I purchased all the Source Code books, the four volumes of the Ticket To Improv sets and a Conti guitar. I finished Volume One, Project 1 in Volume Two and the first three Projects in Volume Three. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the DVD's. can usually learn a Project in a couple of days. Retaining the lines is another story. After a while they all start running together. Keeping them separated is a problem and it seems like I'm learning them all over again. One of the Conti students told me that's what supposed to happen meaning I'm learning various lines in other places.

    I am currently working on Watermellon Man in Volume three. When I read this study group was starting up I went back to refresh myself on Satin Doll. I've played it probably a couple of hundred times perfectly. My Wife is getting tired of hearing it. When I turn on the camera, I seem to choke. Maybe the pressure of getting through it without any problems. Playing with a backing track takes some concentration.

    I'm probably like everyone else looking form that magic bullet, Ive gone through Sid Jacobs' books, Garrison Fewell's books, Joe Elliot's book, Sheryl Bailey's Videos, and some other books. I keep coming back to Conti's lessons. This study group is a good reason for me to stay on target with some accountability.

    Mike

  25. #74

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    I watched the narrative portion of the DVD yesterday and one of the first things Mr Conti says is about reducing the anxiety for those beginner players. With that in mind 2 weeks gives people plenty of time to learn the lines, without to much stress.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    I watched the narrative portion of the DVD yesterday and one of the first things Mr Conti says is about reducing the anxiety for those beginner players. With that in mind 2 weeks gives people plenty of time to learn the lines, without to much stress.
    Good point. The important thing is to learn the lines in a way that works for you. Things are pretty quiet here right now, but I suspect that's because several people only just got their DVDs a day or two ago. I'll post my bars 1-8 tomorrow, and look forward to seeing how others are doing once they've had time to work through part of the lesson.

  27. #76

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    Here is my effort at the 1st 8 bars.


  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    Here is my effort at the 1st 8 bars.
    Good one!!

    Mike

  29. #78

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    Although we are a group----and if I may say so, a fine group!---each of us will learn at his or her own pace. There's no other way for it to happen.

  30. #79

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    On the Raney group, where we only go 4 bars a week, it has worked well to say (a) we have a "deadline" of Monday for each section, but (b) we know lots of folks will come along late and that's fine. We also often post a first effort on the deadline, maybe not up to tempo, still struggling with some material, but still keeping our hands on the project. then later a more polished post comes up.

    I think combining a clear schedule with a really accepting attitude is the best of both worlds.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    Here is my effort at the 1st 8 bars.
    Sounds good!

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    On the Raney group, where we only go 4 bars a week, it has worked well to say (a) we have a "deadline" of Monday for each section, but (b) we know lots of folks will come along late and that's fine. We also often post a first effort on the deadline, maybe not up to tempo, still struggling with some material, but still keeping our hands on the project. then later a more polished post comes up.

    I think combining a clear schedule with a really accepting attitude is the best of both worlds.
    So as not to conflict with the schedule of the Raney group, let's have our "deadlines" be on Tuesdays, if that is acceptable to most. That puts our first "post by" date at March 7.

    You can post before the deadline, of course, submit a given section as many times as you like, and take more time if you're not ready by the appointed date, but -- for organizational purposes -- I suggest this schedule:

    Bars 1-8: March 7
    Bars 9-16: March 14
    Bars 17-24: March 21
    Bars 25-32: March 28

  33. #82

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    While a bit out of scope for this Study group, here are two links from the JGO site relating to Satin Doll:

    Easy Satin Doll Chord Melody For Guitar
    Satin Doll Jazz Guitar Chord Study

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, in addition to learning the Conti material I am trying to learn the chords and melody (as my time permits).

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by losaltosjoe
    While a bit out of scope for this Study group, here are two links from the JGO site relating to Satin Doll:

    Easy Satin Doll Chord Melody For Guitar
    Satin Doll Jazz Guitar Chord Study

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, in addition to learning the Conti material I am trying to learn the chords and melody (as my time permits).
    Thanks, Joe -- learning tunes is what it's all about.

  35. #84

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    My take: I got the material and got a rough version at the rate of 4 bars a day. ROUGH! like "uh, wait a second, that's not it! "
    Now I'm out of town till tomorrow. No instrument. Isn't that life? I believe I can do a video on it this week.
    So 8 bars is not too fast, and more is possible, depending on what we expect from ourselves and one another.
    It's okay to let this first project tell us what's best, no?

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  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by losaltosjoe
    While a bit out of scope for this Study group, here are two links from the JGO site relating to Satin Doll:

    Easy Satin Doll Chord Melody For Guitar
    Satin Doll Jazz Guitar Chord Study

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, in addition to learning the Conti material I am trying to learn the chords and melody (as my time permits).
    Just a thought . . . when we've worked through the "Satin Doll" solo (March 28), those who are practicing it in the context of the tune might want to submit a video of themselves playing any or all of the following -- either as a whole piece or as separate recordings:

    melody
    chord melody
    comping
    solo (Conti's of course, but feel welcome to share whatever else you'd like, as well)

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb
    Here is my effort at the 1st 8 bars.

    Nice. What backing track did you use?

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  38. #87

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    [QUOTE=Dennygomez;748880]Nice. What backing track did you use?

    I have ireal pro on my iPad, so I exported the track as a wav.

    Then I played along to the backing track and recorded the guitar part on a zoom H1 recorder, then merged the 2 tracks in Audacity.

    That was probably more info than you wanted, if you, or anyone want's a copy of the backing track PM me and we can get something sorted out.

    Andy

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by snailspace
    So as not to conflict with the schedule of the Raney group, let's have our "deadlines" be on Tuesdays, if that is acceptable to most. That puts our first "post by" date at March 7.
    I like this! I just posted my Raney installment (due tomorrow) today. I started on the Vignola etude for that group but it didn't work out so well. (I may take another crack at that tonight.) "Tuesdays with Conti" (so to speak) sounds good to me. (Maybe "Fridays with Frank" will work for the members of that group...)

    I appreciate having a goal and an action tied to it. (Posting a video.) Now that I have a tripod for my camera and can set it up without much fuss, I feel like I'm 'back in the game' of being accountable for what I'm working on. This helps with my worst tendency: farting around with fourteen different things on any given day instead of looking at "what's due next" and making some headway there. ;o)

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I think combining a clear schedule with a really accepting attitude is the best of both worlds.
    Yes! Well said. +1, even.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennygomez
    It's okay to let this first project tell us what's best, no?
    This is the thing we'll find out, and I'm glad someone noticed it. Any predetermined pace and schedule is just a place to start, and nothing we're locked into if we later agree on something else.

    Let's get this one done, and decide on the way if it's how we want to keep doing it.

    Thanks, Denny!

  42. #91

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    Since we're already posting, here is my take at the first 8 bars. May do this again in a few days.


  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Since we're already posting, here is my take at the first 8 bars. May do this again in a few days.

    Sounding good, Mark! Was that with the backing track off the DVD?

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by snailspace
    Sounding good, Mark! Was that with the backing track off the DVD?

    Thanks! Yes, that was Conti's backing track, with the two-bar intro. (For anyone curious, I'm playing a C6, B7#5, Bb13, A7 there: a turnaround to Dm7.)

  45. #94

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  46. #95

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    Yeah I like that. The solo just starts like you were playing in a club!

  47. #96

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    Here's my take on the first 8 measures. I find the run in mm. 7-8 can be hard to get right as to "feel." I keep hitting that final E note on 3 instead of on the "and" of 2.

    For fun, 2 guitars. Aria Pro II PE180 and Gibson 1959 VOS ES175D.


  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Here's my take on the first 8 measures. I find the run in mm. 7-8 can be hard to get right as to "feel." I keep hitting that final E note on 3 instead of on the "and" of 2.

    For fun, 2 guitars. Aria Pro II PE180 and Gibson 1959 VOS ES175D.
    Good job on the first eight.

    Mike

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by lickerz101
    Good job on the head too. What backing track did you use?

    Mike

  50. #99

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    Sounds like lickerz is using the real book track...If I'm hearing right.

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  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by lickerz101

    Nice. Was that the Jamey Aebersold Backing track ?