The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Herb Ellis used a string damper for just that reason. I think George Van Eps designed it.

    Frank's Etude #1 has an open string in measure 16 and no one seemed to be bothered by it. (Frank uses open strings in some scale fingerings in his "Modern Guitar Method." I don't think he minds open strings.)
    Yeah, don't mean to say they should be off limits, but there are some definite drawbacks in terms of limiting a player's flexibility in the moment. I certainly think there are times when it could be super helpful to hit that open note. I would tend to shy away from them as landing points though because it's sort of a lifeless thing the sustained open string.

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  3. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Just checked amamzon and read your review of Herb Ellis' books. Since I can't get enough material on RC I ordered the one about them. Thanks!
    Funny you should mention that. Today when I was playing along with Frank's CD (-Etude #3), I took advantage of the comping choruses after the "head" to play some lines and used some of Herb's.

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by pants
    One factor with the open string issue is that they have a couple fundamental differences mechanically from a fretted note that can distract tonally from the flow of a line. There is no dampening effect of the fretting finger, just the open string behind the nut. Open strings also have to be consciously muted to "end" the note, rather than lifting the fretting finger. The differences are small and a practiced player can minimize it, but that difference in tone/decay has the potential to be problematic for musicality. Also an issue if you want to slide up or down into the note or sustain it with a subtle vibrato.

    Thanks for your insight but is there really such a huge difference in tone when you hit that open string for the duration of an eighth note? I'm constantly muting strings with my right hand palm. Anyway: I have been practicing those wide stretches and getting more comfortable with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I actually like using what I think of as the "Texas Longhorn" triad shape (my name for it Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes)
    Care to explain?

  5. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Thanks for your insight but is there really such a huge difference in tone when you hit that open string for the duration of an eighth note? I'm constantly muting strings with my right hand palm. Anyway: I have been practicing those wide stretches and getting more comfortable with them.
    Here's a bit about the damper, including pics of Herb's guitar with one on.

    VintageArchtop.com

  6. #205
    Catching up to y'all. After a couple of busy I finally got the chance to record Basics 2 and 3

    Basics #2

    I play through this one 3 times.
    The first chorus is as written (almost)
    The second chorus is a sort of Chord etude. I use Frank's "melody" as the lead note in my chord's voicings.
    The third chorus is a combination of Frank's melody an octave higher and octaves.

    Frank Vignola's Basic #2

    Basics #3

    Nothing Fancy. Just Catching up.

    Frank Vignola's Basic #3
    Last edited by Doublea A; 03-04-2017 at 06:28 PM.

  7. #206

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    We are making progress with the etudes. Yay! Thought we might also want to talk a bit about Frank's approach to rhythm changes and what we're learning from it.

    I like the way he phrases things and never "noodles". Melodic playing.

  8. #207

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    Nothing special about the "Longhorn" shape. The minor is the "Sombrero" in my mind.

    If you start with the on any string (except three) with index on root pinkie on third half way below on the next sting is your fifth. Directly below that is the root. That reminds me of the shape of a Texas Longhorn. (The major 7th is a nose ring).

    A minor triad is the sombrero. Start with the root using your middle finger. On the next string index on minor third and pinkie on fifth. Tada! A sombrero.

    Nice thing about a ii-V-I is that above the sombrero is a longhorn resolving to a longhorn below.

    Dumb, I know. But we use what we can to simplify our thinking.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #208

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    Ok, it's official. I'm done with Etude #2. I've gone through it 8 bars at a time and I just can't find anything musical about it. I don't like it, I don't remember it, and I just can't get into it. I played the audio track at 2x and could hear some "bebop" lines I recognized, but I just couldn't play something I could not get into my ear.

    It may be cheating on my homework, but I'm moving on to Etude #3. Listened to that once and it was like night and day.

  10. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett

    It may be cheating on my homework, but I'm moving on to Etude #3. Listened to that once and it was like night and day.
    I've mentioned it before that in my opinion #2 is quite complex in terms of phrases and fingerings - especially when compared to later etudes. Maybe you'll go back later and try again and it'll make more sense to you?

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    I've mentioned it before that in my opinion #2 is quite complex in terms of phrases and fingerings - especially when compared to later etudes. Maybe you'll go back later and try again and it'll make more sense to you?
    Maybe. But the issue is not the fingerings. They doesn't seem too different one way or another from what we've already done. My problem is I don't find the phrases very musical.

    I don't just mean when I try to play it. I listen to Frank play it and it sounds dull and uninspired. It's hard for me to put time in learning to play something I would never choose to listen to. I don't have to love it, but all the earlier six pieces I would get stuck in my head or hum. This one was just flat and mechanical to me.


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  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett

    It may be cheating on my homework, but I'm moving on to Etude #3. Listened to that once and it was like night and day.
    It's not cheating. (Passing off someone else's performance as your own would be cheating--cheating yourself--but no one is doing that.) Maybe next year, you'll like that etude and want to play it. You may never. That's okay too. Across the three volumes of Frank's rhythm changes etudes, there are at least two dozen of them. It would be nice, I guess, to master them all, but knowing six or seven by heart would give one a lot of options for handling rhythm changes. Learn the ones you like best. (For the purposes of this group, it's good to give each one "the old college try" but if you hate one, you hate it. Moving on is the best thing to do. Giving up would be the worst. ;o)

  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Across the three volumes of Frank's rhythm changes etudes, there are at least two dozen of them. It would be nice, I guess, to master them all, but knowing six or seven by heart would give one a lot of options for handling rhythm changes. Learn the ones you like best. (For the purposes of this group, it's good to give each one "the old college try" but if you hate one, you hate it. Moving on is the best thing to do. Giving up would be the worst. ;o)
    This! I have already worked on a couple from Vol3 - they are stylistically very diverse, some leaning heavily to blues, others more to swing for example. #2 seems to be very bebop.

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    This! I have already worked on a couple from Vol3 - they are stylistically very diverse, some leaning heavily to blues, others more to swing for example. #2 seems to be very bebop.
    Speaking of the other volumes, the first one (in this series) that I got was Volume 3. (I only got Volume 2 over Christmas---Aebersold's site had it on sale and I snapped it up.) Etude #18 is in G and I found myself using it as a solo when I play Ellington's "I'm Just A Lucky So-And-So" (in G). It's not exactly a rhythm changes tune, but when one is playing solo, one can do a 'rhythm' chorus if it coheres and no one bats an eye. Sounds like a cool interlude...with a bridge! How cool is THAT?

  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Speaking of the other volumes, the first one (in this series) that I got was Volume 3. (I only got Volume 2 over Christmas---Aebersold's site had it on sale and I snapped it up.) Etude #18 is in G and I found myself using it as a solo when I play Ellington's "I'm Just A Lucky So-And-So" (in G). It's not exactly a rhythm changes tune, but when one is playing solo, one can do a 'rhythm' chorus if it coheres and no one bats an eye. Sounds like a cool interlude...with a bridge! How cool is THAT?


    Speaking of #18 - since I have concentrated on one key (Bb) so far to make the connection between the phrases easier to understand I transposed #18 to Bb. It has a great bridge!

  16. #215

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    I've also been a little muddled in approaching etude 2. It seems much more Bach than bebop to me (though the 2 certainly aren't exclusive). I was playing with a straight 8ths more classical phrasing feel the other day which I found more interesting than trying to make it swing. I will try and make a recording when I have a chance.

  17. #216

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    Hmmm... interesting viewpoint. Each to his own, I guess. I found #2 to be very musical and I really enjoyed playing it, especially on steel guitar.

    In any case, I'm thinking that, rather than just moving on to tackling #3, perhaps I should take bits and pieces of Etudes 1&2 (and maybe even the prior 5 exercises) and integrate them with the rest of my ideas and approaches, i.e., start weaving them into the fabric of how I play. Otherwise, I fear the work may get wasted, if not incorporated into my bag. I guess I could just keep moving through the exercises and 'have faith' that it will all start to affect my playing automatically sooner or later and that I don't have to 'push the wheel'.

    What do y'all think?

  18. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Hmmm... interesting viewpoint. Each to his own, I guess. I found #2 to be very musical and I really enjoyed playing it, especially on steel guitar.

    In any case, I'm thinking that, rather than just moving on to tackling #3, perhaps I should take bits and pieces of Etudes 1&2 (and maybe even the prior 5 exercises) and integrate them with the rest of my ideas and approaches, i.e., start weaving them into the fabric of how I play. Otherwise, I fear the work may get wasted, if not incorporated into my bag. I guess I could just keep moving through the exercises and 'have faith' that it will all start to affect my playing automatically sooner or later and that I don't have to 'push the wheel'.

    What do y'all think?

    Great idea to start mixing up phrases from different choruses and combining them with your own ideas. Don't wait until "sooner or later". Having concentrated on the key of Bb so far and having learned about a dozen choruses I started to come up with lines of my own (certainly inspired and influenced by what I had learned), but that was "later". I can improvise through RC in Bb but it is still quite slow - doesn't come as natural to me yet as improvising over blues changes.

  19. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    A little bit, here and there. I like the video he prepared for Mark and they way he breaks it down and connects it to "I got Rhythm". Just like Mark, I get a little bored playing the lines and will practice the comping.
    I have been practicing by putting the chord changes on iRealBook. I alternate between Frank's lines and comping. I find that this also makes it easier to control the speed that I want to practice at. It also makes practice feel like a true live Jazz performance.

  20. #219
    Hello all. I would like to make a suggestion.

    I know that we are all working on the etudes at different paces. However, I think that we will get more value out of our practice sessions if we incorporate a little bit of discussion surrounding the pieces.

    I would like to suggest that we devote 2 weeks to each "tune", not so much as in learning the tune but discussing the tune. I do not want to make this feel like school or work. I want this to feel like we can all contribute as much or as little as we want to discussions around what we are discovering in Frank's book. How we are applying it to our music. How it is shaping our thoughts about improvisation.

    You can post your music and/or video or not.

    You can contribute to the discussion or not.

    I am not trying to give us all a make work project. I am trying to help us get the most out of practice time. After all the key to all of this is to put our practice in to practice.

    Members do not need to feel like they need to contribute to every discussion. When life gets busy and you can not contribute, fine. If there is a particular piece that does not appeal to you, do not feel that you need to comment or record every single piece. Focus on the ones you like.

    Once again, I want to reiterate that my goals are:
    1. For us to work as a community and assist in each others learning
    2. For us to enjoy this process and not feel burdened by it.
    3. For the community members to walk away from this book feeling like they have learned valuable lessons that will shape their musicianship

    Your thoughts ?

  21. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    ...I would like to suggest that we devote 2 weeks to each "tune", not so much as in learning the tune but discussing the tune... I want this to feel like we can all contribute as much or as little as we want to discussions around what we are discovering in Frank's book. How we are applying it to our music. How it is shaping our thoughts about improvisation.
    My initial reaction is that we can do that now - and I agree we could be doing it even more - while still working at whatever pace we choose. A few of us have posted observations and comments about the lines, harmonically, etc. and what we're learning from them. Other people can quote those posts and add their own comments, points of view, suggestions, etc. It's true that I won't be interested in reading the comments about etudes that I haven't gotten to yet, but I'll certainly scan the thread for comments about them when I catch up and get to them. I think the only real benefit of having everyone do the same etude during the same 2 weeks is that one wouldn't have to search through the whole thread to find comments about a given etude that may be dispersed throughout the thread, but that seems to me to be a minor inconvenience.

    By the way, some folks have said that they are incorporating Frank's lines with their own lines, or alternating choruses with comping, etc. I think it would be great if they would post additional videos showing how they are doing this. It would be helpful for all of us to see, I think, certainly for me.

    In the interest of fair balance, I just thought of a benefit of having everyone do the same exercise for the same 2 weeks: it prevents one from running ahead and forces us to squeeze more out of each etude rather than "check the box" and move on to the next one without having really integrated the learnings from the current one. It might force more of us to do the integrate-the-learnings thing mentioned in the paragraph above. Fair point.

    Other views?

  22. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A

    Once again, I want to reiterate that my goals are:
    1. For us to work as a community and assist in each others learning
    2. For us to enjoy this process and not feel burdened by it.
    3. For the community members to walk away from this book feeling like they have learned valuable lessons that will shape their musicianship

    Your thoughts ?
    Yes, yes and yes - thanks!

  23. #222

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    I'm still having trouble to get #1 memorized and under my fingers so I can play it withoutclams and I don't know why - it's not difficult really...
    I'll probably have #2 ready before #1...LOL!
    Hope you'll hear from me re those at the weekend!

  24. #223
    I guess that I am just trying to structure what we are doing a bit more.
    Work smarter not harder.

    For example, if I decide not to do Rhythm Changes #6 for any reason. I can still get something out of it by reading what others have taken away from it. Maybe focus in on key features instead of the entire tune.

    By contrast, I may really get into Rhythm Changes #8 and feel that I want to share all the great things that I learned from it and maybe even include how I am going to apply to songs or standards in my repertoire.

    It will also give an endpoint. So that we can all move on with what we have learned.

    I like when you said "I think the only real benefit of having everyone do the same etude during the same 2 weeks is that one wouldn't have to search through the whole thread to find comments about a given etude that may be dispersed throughout the thread".

    It is not the inconvenience that I am concerned with, once again it is the structure.

    I doubt that we will all be working on the same piece for 2 weeks. I am envisioning everyone delving in on pieces that appeal them more passionately and perhaps grazing over others but still gaining something through the efforts of other members.

    What do we all think ?

  25. #224
    I have not been memorizing the pieces.

  26. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    I guess that I am just trying to structure what we are doing a bit more.
    Work smarter not harder.

    For example, if I decide not to do Rhythm Changes #6 for any reason. I can still get something out of it by reading what others have taken away from it. Maybe focus in on key features instead of the entire tune.

    By contrast, I may really get into Rhythm Changes #8 and feel that I want to share all the great things that I learned from it and maybe even include how I am going to apply to songs or standards in my repertoire.

    It will also give an endpoint. So that we can all move on with what we have learned.

    I like when you said "I think the only real benefit of having everyone do the same etude during the same 2 weeks is that one wouldn't have to search through the whole thread to find comments about a given etude that may be dispersed throughout the thread".

    It is not the inconvenience that I am concerned with, once again it is the structure.

    I doubt that we will all be working on the same piece for 2 weeks. I am envisioning everyone delving in on pieces that appeal them more passionately and perhaps grazing over others but still gaining something through the efforts of other members.

    What do we all think ?

    I think that's all very good suggestions and ideas and they have my support!