The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    That's a real tough one for me. Lots of stretches across four frets with the pinky and in the first couple of frets to boot.
    It is tough one for me too. The fingerings seem unusual, but then, that may just mean I'm learning something new!

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  3. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    It is tough one for me too. The fingerings seem unusual, but then, that may just mean I'm learning something new!
    The fingerings remind me a lot of Leavitt's "Modern Method For Guitar" where you stay in one position with no position shifts....

    #3 looks like a walk in the park in comparison....

  4. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    The fingerings remind me a lot of Leavitt's "Modern Method For Guitar" where you stay in one position with no position shifts....

    #3 looks like a walk in the park in comparison....
    #3 grabbed my ear. It's the first one in the book I wanted to learn. The fingering of the bridge is a bit tricky (for me), so I've changed it. I try to play things the way he writes them, but I sometimes think, "There he goes stretching with his pinky when my instinct is to move back with my index on the next lower string." I don't mind using my pinky from learning a lot of Charlie Christian licks, I'm used to grabbing "out of position" notes with my index finger (all things being equal.)

    Also, from learning Herb Ellis material, I like to relate melodic ideas to chord shapes. I want to learn these lines in the way I would actually play them (or parts of them) while improvising. I know what grips I'm most apt to use. (At the same time, I want to become comfortable with a few more...)
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 02-16-2017 at 06:27 PM.

  5. #179

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    Here is the Pedal Steel version of Etude #2. I changed the ending a bit to adapt better to the instrument. Hope you enjoy.


  6. #180

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    You guys are doing great! I've been living with Etude #1 for over a week now. I like it a lot. For me, listening to the very slow versions is useless on Frank's CD. Too slow for me to hear the phrases as integrated ideas. I've been playing it at speeds close to his 96bpm. Actually, 110-120 sounds the most natural to me.

    I would love to post a video, but 32 bars of memorized lines seems impossible for me to get through without making any mistakes. I have literally played it through a hundred times at tempo, but there is always a stumble or two. I think I will just move on rather than spend any more time trying to get a clean recording. I don't think this study group is about my recording skills and I don't want to fall too far behind the pack.

    This has been the most engaging of the exercises so far. I did not care for Basics 4-5. I found them hard to remember or feel. This was better. I like the slightly bluesy double stops he employs twice, and the more interesting rhythmic variations.

    I also notice that he seems to really lock into one position on the neck. Mostly they seem to be with the first finger at the fifth fret. In C this means a lot of "G" or "C" fingerings for CAGED people. Coming from a blues/folk world I am not as used to finding chord tones in that position, but I'm getting there. Overall, I feel like osmosis is giving me some new ideas for improvising --just as I hoped it would.

  7. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I would love to post a video, but 32 bars of memorized lines seems impossible for me to get through without making any mistakes. I have literally played it through a hundred times at tempo, but there is always a stumble or two. I think I will just move on rather than spend any more time trying to get a clean recording. I don't think this study group is about my recording skills and I don't want to fall too far behind the pack.
    rlrhett:
    I've thought about the same thing, as I play through an exercise 30 or 40 times trying to get a good 'take' to post, without any bad mistakes. What I finally post usually has a small glitch or two, but no big deal. And, in any case, I feel that all the effort I make in playing the etude that many times through is only helping to ingrain the lines and phrasing into my consciousness (and some muscle memory too) so there's a better chance that some of all that will seep through when I'm making up my own solos on the fly. So it's not really all about getting a good video to share per se. The real rewards are in the efforts made along the way, IMHO.

    Jim

  8. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I would love to post a video, but 32 bars of memorized lines seems impossible for me to get through without making any mistakes. I have literally played it through a hundred times at tempo, but there is always a stumble or two. I
    Don't sweat it! We all make mistakes. For Gods sake, FRANK VIGNOLA makes mistakes. These aren't the melodies of standards such as "Body and Soul" and "All The Things You Are" that you need to learn by heart.

    It's good to play them as best you can but it's also good to post a video and move on. (You can always return to an etude later.)

    I have trouble with Etude #2 but I'm making a video of it this weekend, warts and all, and then moving on to #3. It won't be perfect. Neither was the last one. I've never made a perfect video. That is not the point. There's no way to look back later to appreciate the progress you've made unless you have some record of how you were playing before. These videos are "you are here" signs.

  9. #183

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    Jim: I was grinning from ear to ear listening to your steel guitar version - love it!


    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Too slow for me to hear the phrases as integrated ideas. I've been playing it at speeds close to his 96bpm. Actually, 110-120 sounds the most natural to me.
    Same feeling here - the slow versions are meant for practicing along with the recording I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I feel that all the effort I make in playing the etude that many times through is only helping to ingrain the lines and phrasing into my consciousness (and some muscle memory too) so there's a better chance that some of all that will seep through when I'm making up my own solos on the fly.

    True: since I started to work on rhythm changes approximately a year and a half ago I learned and memorized about a dozen choruses (half of them from Frank Vignola's books), analyzed the phrases in their relation to the changes and harmony and changed quite a few of the suggested fingerings (or at least explored alternatives). It all led to some phrases I figured out myself and for example in etude #2 I have to watch out so I don't slip into some other phrase I keep hearing in my head during a chord change during the bridge....LOL!

  10. #184

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    Well, Ok. Here is the last take I did with the cameras on. I can't do more. I'm at the point where my mind starts wandering and I lose myself mid phrase. I've even added a title sequence so I can be as cool as jassco .

    Can't wait to get started on the infamous "Etude #2"!


  11. #185

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    Question: is anybody comping through the changes as well as learning and studying the solos? When I'm getting tired of going through the solos I'm currently working on and still can't put the guitar down I'm practicing chord changes - so many possibilities especially alternatives and subs for the VI and V chords - lotsa fun!

  12. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Question: is anybody comping through the changes as well as learning and studying the solos?
    Yes!
    Frank's a great rhythm player. And hearing him without a soloist over him makes it easier to absorb what he's doing.

  13. #187

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    Today's take on Etude No. 2. Messy but I had to post something so that I can move on to the next one. ;o) I like the sound of this etude but the fingerings are like speaking a foreign language---halting and self-conscious.

    Backing track is barely audible again. It seems loud in the room though, so I really don't want to turn it up any further. Perhaps if I played it through my laptop and used exterior speakers at least the bass and drums would come through. We'll try that next time.


  14. #188

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    Those stretches all the time are quite tough aren't they? Slowly getting used to (most of) them, though...

  15. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Those stretches all the time are quite tough aren't they? Slowly getting used to (most of) them, though...
    Yes, they are. Especially down near the nut. I don't know what Frank's got against open strings! ;o)

    I've grown comfortable with Herb Ellis' "shape system" and like to relate melodic ideas to chord shapes. Much of what Frank does fits right in with that, but some of it doesn't. When I think about how I want to play lines when improvising, it's most likely going to be the way Herb would. (Which is similar to CAGED.)

  16. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Those stretches all the time are quite tough aren't they? Slowly getting used to (most of) them, though...
    Yes, they are. Especially down near the nut. I don't know what Frank's got against open strings! ;o)

    I've grown comfortable with Herb Ellis' "shape system" and like to relate melodic ideas to chord shapes. Much of what Frank does fits right in with that, but some of it doesn't. When I think about how I want to play lines when improvising, it's most likely going to be the way Herb would. (Which is similar to CAGED.)

  17. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Question: is anybody comping through the changes as well as learning and studying the solos? When I'm getting tired of going through the solos I'm currently working on and still can't put the guitar down I'm practicing chord changes - so many possibilities especially alternatives and subs for the VI and V chords - lotsa fun!

    A little bit, here and there. I like the video he prepared for Mark and they way he breaks it down and connects it to "I got Rhythm". Just like Mark, I get a little bored playing the lines and will practice the comping.

  18. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Yes, they are. Especially down near the nut. I don't know what Frank's got against open strings! ;o)

    I've grown comfortable with Herb Ellis' "shape system" and like to relate melodic ideas to chord shapes. Much of what Frank does fits right in with that, but some of it doesn't. When I think about how I want to play lines when improvising, it's most likely going to be the way Herb would. (Which is similar to CAGED.)
    It's probably meant as an exercise to get those shapes under your fingers. When you work through them very consciously (which I did) they do make sense - your fingers will always be in a position to easily reach for the next phrase...
    Still I don't mind a position shift every now and then.
    Regarding open strings: I've heard that it's a no-go for a lot of jazzers but I can't find anything wrong with them - they are a valid option to me.
    If I may quote Joe Pass here: "I don't play anything that hurts." LOL!

  19. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Regarding open strings: I've heard that it's a no-go for a lot of jazzers but I can't find anything wrong with them - they are a valid option to me.
    I do avoid open strings because they're not transposable. If I drill lines for rhythm changes in key of C with open strings, I'm gonna run into trouble later on because the tune is rarely called in C.

  20. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I do avoid open strings because they're not transposable. If I drill lines for rhythm changes in key of C with open strings, I'm gonna run into trouble later on because the tune is rarely called in C.
    Good point! But neither are those in the first few frets at least when it comes to using the same fingering patterns...
    Last edited by TOMMO; 02-19-2017 at 10:28 AM.

  21. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    It's probably meant as an exercise to get those shapes under your fingers. When you work through them very consciously (which I did) they do make sense - your fingers will always be in a position to easily reach for the next phrase...
    Still I don't mind a position shift every now and then.
    I'm not so sure of that. Frank likes to finger things many different ways. (In his "Modern Method for Guitar" he gives 100+ ways to play a C major scale.) That's how he works. As we said earlier, Frank doesn't give any information in the book about chord shapes or even scale positions. On his site---which offers downloadable lessons that include tab---he has said, "I read manuscript so do not always use the fingerings I put for the tab." Lessons – Frank Vignola

    I think the etudes themselves are the main thing. Frank is teaching us how to build strong lines. It is not a specific approach to fingering them. Ideally, we will finger them several different ways.

    His aim is that of every great guitar teacher I know of: teaching the student to connect his ear and his fingers. Herb Ellis---to take the example of another study group I am part of---went a wholly different way. He played out of simple chord shapes and thought it a waste of practice time to play scales and arpeggios in all possible positions. Herb was all about useful positions---things he would actually play on the bandstand. (For that reason, the tab in Herb's books was carefully done to show how Herb fingered the lines. He wants students to learn that way of fingering the lines.)

    But both guys were masters and great teachers. Yet their approach was not the same.

  22. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

    teaching the student to connect his ear and his fingers.
    Which actually has been working for me: when I have a melody or phrase or chorus memorized (as music in my head, not as a fingering pattern) my fingers automatically reach for the right notes (more often than not at least...).

    As for Herb Ellis - who I am a big fan of - I watched his tutorial video on youtube about his shape playing and it makes a lot of sense - definitely for me as a blues player of fourty year plus. Another book to get?

  23. #197

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    Just checked amamzon and read your review of Herb Ellis' books. Since I can't get enough material on RC I ordered the one about them. Thanks!

  24. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    It's probably meant as an exercise to get those shapes under your fingers. When you work through them very consciously (which I did) they do make sense - your fingers will always be in a position to easily reach for the next phrase...
    Still I don't mind a position shift every now and then.
    Regarding open strings: I've heard that it's a no-go for a lot of jazzers but I can't find anything wrong with them - they are a valid option to me.
    If I may quote Joe Pass here: "I don't play anything that hurts." LOL!
    One factor with the open string issue is that they have a couple fundamental differences mechanically from a fretted note that can distract tonally from the flow of a line. There is no dampening effect of the fretting finger, just the open string behind the nut. Open strings also have to be consciously muted to "end" the note, rather than lifting the fretting finger. The differences are small and a practiced player can minimize it, but that difference in tone/decay has the potential to be problematic for musicality. Also an issue if you want to slide up or down into the note or sustain it with a subtle vibrato.

  25. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I do avoid open strings because they're not transposable. If I drill lines for rhythm changes in key of C with open strings, I'm gonna run into trouble later on because the tune is rarely called in C.
    Pat Martino "frets" open strings for this reason. He says he grew tired of learning one fingering for all the neck and a different one for open strings.

    I actually like using what I think of as the "Texas Longhorn" triad shape (my name for it Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes) Although I don't use it so much down on those first frets. That is most def a challenge!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  26. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by pants
    One factor with the open string issue is that they have a couple fundamental differences mechanically from a fretted note that can distract tonally from the flow of a line. There is no dampening effect of the fretting finger, just the open string behind the nut.

    Herb Ellis used a string damper for just that reason. I think George Van Eps designed it.

    Frank's Etude #1 has an open string in measure 16 and no one seemed to be bothered by it. (Frank uses open strings in some scale fingerings in his "Modern Guitar Method." I don't think he minds open strings.)