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  1. #101

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    Moving on from the five 'Basics' exercises, here is the first of what I'll call Frank's "Etudes" (so as not to confuse them with the 'Basics' exercises)


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Looks like you're way ahead of us....

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Looks like you're way ahead of us....
    Yes, I realize that. And that raises a very good question as to whether we should all try to stay at the same pace (e.g. one exercise or etude per week) or whether we should proceed at our own paces, as our own schedules and motivation allows. I don't know whether it's motivating, or demotivating, for others to see what's coming around the corner by viewing the videos of people who have gotten to them sooner.

    What do you all think? What would be your preference? I just happen to have some free time in my schedule for this right now and I may not always, so I'm trying to move through it rapidly while I have the opportunity to do so (but hopefully not so rapidly that I miss the point of the exercise, etc.)

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Yes, I realize that. And that raises a very good question as to whether we should all try to stay at the same pace (e.g. one exercise or etude per week) or whether we should proceed at our own paces, as our own schedules and motivation allows. I don't know whether it's motivating, or demotivating, for others to see what's coming around the corner by viewing the videos of people who have gotten to them sooner.

    What do you all think? What would be your preference? I just happen to have some free time in my schedule for this right now and I may not always, so I'm trying to move through it rapidly while I have the opportunity to do so (but hopefully not so rapidly that I miss the point of the exercise, etc.)
    I don't know...

    As long as you give us a chance to catch up. Maybe you should take a break when you're starting on Vol.2 and we're still stuck on #2 or 3 in Vol.1?

    Actually I had planned to record Basics 3 and 4 and maybe 5 today but my wife got sick so.....

  6. #105

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    Here's a take of the fifth and final basic. I don't know what pace to take through the etudes themselves.

    On the one hand, we don't want people to feel left behind.
    On the other hand, it's great that so many people are posting.

    Whatever the group decides is fine by me.



  7. #106

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    Mark, since you've now finished Basics-5 and are turning next to Etude #1, well, then I'm not so far ahead of everybody... (plus I have to slow down now to do the pedal steel version).... I think it'll all work out ok in the end...
    Last edited by jasaco; 02-06-2017 at 06:02 PM.

  8. #107
    So I'm looking forward to catching up with you all. Just spent the last 3 or so hours reading all 13 pages of replies and listening to every recording! Got a great feel for what I need to do and I'm inspired by all of your contributions.

    Sent from my LGMS330 using Tapatalk

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by inktechpatrick
    So I'm looking forward to catching up with you all. Just spent the last 3 or so hours reading all 13 pages of replies and listening to every recording! Got a great feel for what I need to do and I'm inspired by all of your contributions.

    Sent from my LGMS330 using Tapatalk
    Perhaps we can catch up together. I hope to be posting a few of the "basics" by the end of the week. I'd been keeping tabs on the group and decided to go ahead and order the book. Here's hoping I can stay in it here as well as get back to working on the Herb Ellis group. Oh to be young and unencumbered again...

  10. #109

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    We never knew who (or how many) would hang with a group if it moved slower. There's no way to tell. There's also no way to tell who (or how many) would hang if the group moved a little faster. There's no telling.

    One thing that held me back before was that I found recording such a pain.

    I recently got a tripod for my webcam, so I have better options for placing it, though if I had a longer cord, I would have even still better options. Are there extension cords for USB plugs?

    Well, thanks to Google and Amazon, I have answered my own question: I can get a 10-foot cable which will allow me to place my camera where I want.

    This should also make it easier to place the cam so it will pick up sound from my CD player as well as my guitar.) Maybe be a week or so before I actually get this, but I will.

    But back to our issue: this is a case of "a decision made under uncertainty." There is no one right answer for this and little way of determining whether one option is better of worse than another. (Granted, the option "killing people who are a day late with submissions" would be worse than anything that comes to mind. But is four-bars a week better than eight? Might vary with the material, and with the experience of the people participating. We just have to do "the best we can" and accept that that won't be perfect.)

  11. #110

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    Just let everybody move at the pace they are comfortable with. Some need more time, some less and that also can vary from week to week. As for me for example: I do have enough time to learn and practice but not always an opportunity to record (unless I'm looking for trouble with the wife....LOL!). We don't have to meet a deadline, right?

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    We don't have to meet a deadline, right?
    No. Deadlines set an agreeable pace and allow a tangible accomplishment. ("There! I did it!")

    Some people start the new year wanting to learn a tune a week. Maybe that slows to a tune every two weeks, and during a busy period, a pace of one a month is the best you can do. If at the end of the year you haven't learned the 52 tunes you planned to but you have only learned 20, well, that's still quite an accomplishment.

    The six etudes in Frank's book are worth learning. If you can do it in six days, great! If it takes six weeks, then that's what it takes you. Fine. If it takes six months, after those six months you'll have a better handle on soloing over rhythm changes and that's what it's all about, so that's fine too.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

    The six etudes in Frank's book are worth learning. If you can do it in six days, great! If it takes six weeks, then that's what it takes you. Fine. If it takes six months, after those six months you'll have a better handle on soloing over rhythm changes and that's what it's all about, so that's fine too.
    Totally agreed!

  14. #113

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    Basics 1 -
    Forgive the crummy audio (had been playing around with a touch of drive and pretty loud, phone mic on overload). Hmmmm. Never mind I guess. Video upload not working. Will try again later.

  15. #114

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    Well, got through a couple more of the basics. I've realised a couple of things, my sight reading is terrible, and I'm not really comfortable with these changes. I think I need to spend some time practicing comping and playing arpeggios/ chord tones using the variations in these basic studies. I never really got past the basic 1 6 2 5 progression. So I don't think I'll be rushing through this book...

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by rahsaan
    So I don't think I'll be rushing through this book...
    Which wouldn't get you anywhere anyhow...

  17. #116

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    I have iReal Pro but have to run it on an emulator. I was using BlueStacks to try it out but that is now $48 a year. (It was $24 a year a few weeks ago.) I don't want to pay that. (iReal Pro only cost 13 bucks.)

    Are there any free, no-hassle emulators I might try?

    I think I'm going back to Band-in-a-Box.... No bad thing.

  18. #117

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    Not to change the subject from the study material here but I've been studying Frank's courses on truefire for a few months and since discovering him some years back in awe of his musical knowledge and teaching skills that are superb. Seeing and hearing is more in line for me, never liked tabs and such

  19. #118

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    I don't think rules about how fast you go are necessary. Just some common sense courtesy. If we are doing this together, it would be good to stay within a few assignments one side or other of the main pack. That way we are talking the same thing and going through the same thing.

    For example, Mark and I seem to be on roughly the same pace and had a good exchange about what octave/register we like to play in and why. I don't think anyone would have commented or cared if my video was of Etude #6, rather than Basics #4. By the time others caught up it would be buried pages back. That would seem to defeat the point of doing a study group.

    If you are completing Etude #6 when the center of the pack is on Etude #1, that will just be discouraging to the other players and probably won't get you any meaningful feedback. Likewise, if the center of the pack is at Etude #3 and you are just starting out, might not make a ton of sense to start posting. If you can catch up, great! But until you do, it is unlikely the discussions will be meaningful to you at that point.

    Well, at least I think that is common sense. But I am perfectly happy to do whatever the group decides is best. On to my post on the Basic #5...

  20. #119

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    Well, in my case, I'm being slowed down now by my commitment to do both a guitar and a pedal steel version of every exercise/etude. The guitar version of Etude #1 went pretty quickly, but the bridge on the PSG version is giving me a little trubble (deciding what positions to use, whether with or without pedals, etc., plus it's still hard for me to play steel in tune while keeping my eyes on printed music). So, I don't think I'm going to be getting too far ahead of anybody anymore, now that the etudes are becoming more involved.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I don't think rules about how fast you go are necessary. Just some common sense courtesy. If we are doing this together, it would be good to stay within a few assignments one side or other of the main pack. That way we are talking the same thing and going through the same thing.

    For example, Mark and I seem to be on roughly the same pace and had a good exchange about what octave/register we like to play in and why. I don't think anyone would have commented or cared if my video was of Etude #6, rather than Basics #4. By the time others caught up it would be buried pages back. That would seem to defeat the point of doing a study group.
    This sounds good to me.
    Valentine's day is coming up (14 February). Perhaps that would make a nice "date" for Etude 1. Or better, to start posting etude one. (Those who are ahead may record but delay posting.) This gives people about a week to get ready. And if you're not ready by then, that's fine, but you may listen to Frank play the etude a few times and listen to how some people here are doing it. "Get the tune in your head," so to speak, which will make it easier to learn when you get to it.

    Also, you don't have to master every basic before looking at the first etude.

    My two cents.

  22. #121

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    Anyone else having issues posting video? I've been trying intermittently since yesterday. I get a message that the video failed to upload due to network error.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by pants
    Anyone else having issues posting video? I've been trying intermittently since yesterday. I get a message that the video failed to upload due to network error.
    You mean you can't upload them at YouTube?

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    You mean you can't upload them at YouTube?
    Dunno. I don't mess with all that. I just record on the phone and then post from the phone.

  25. #124

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    Pants,

    Mark can confirm this, but I don't believe that one can upload video directly to this forum to be hosted on the forum's own servers. A video (just like an audio) needs to be hosted elsewhere on the web (e.g. YouTube for vids, SoundCloud or PicoSong for audio) and then you can insert a link to it in your post here on the forum. Videos will show up here in your forum post and appear to be hosted locally but really they are just linking to the file being hosted elsewhere. The simplest option for video is probably YouTube so you might want to open a (free) YT account and spend a few minutes learning how to upload your file there.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Pants,

    Mark can confirm this, but I don't believe that one can upload video directly to this forum to be hosted on the forum's own servers. A video (just like an audio) needs to be hosted elsewhere on the web (e.g. YouTube for vids, SoundCloud or PicoSong for audio) and then you can insert a link to it in your post here on the forum. Videos will show up here in your forum post and appear to be hosted locally but really they are just linking to the file being hosted elsewhere. The simplest option for video is probably YouTube so you might want to open a (free) YT account and spend a few minutes learning how to upload your file there.
    Through Tapatalk there's a button that you select a photo/video locally on your phone. I believe it gets "hosted" at Vimeo, but I've never had to set anything up or go to
    the site. I've posted a dozen or so videos like this previously with no issues. I'm assuming some kind of bug in Tapatalk or in how the forum interacts with Vimeo/Tapatalk.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by pants
    Through Tapatalk there's a button that you select a photo/video locally on your phone. I believe it gets "hosted" at Vimeo, but I've never had to set anything up or go to
    the site. I've posted a dozen or so videos like this previously with no issues. I'm assuming some kind of bug in Tapatalk or in how the forum interacts with Vimeo/Tapatalk.
    Ah,ok. I don't know anything about Tapatalk...sorry...

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Ah,ok. I don't know anything about Tapatalk...sorry...
    Me neither, I'm afraid. I upload to YouTube and then post them here.

    I sometimes see videos here that are not from YouTube. Perhaps the people who posted them can tell the rest of us how they did it.

  29. #128

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    Well, the process is certainly not as easy peasy this way but here we go. I'll keep trying the native uploads as that was really simple, but this works as a backup.

  30. #129

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    Here is the pedal steel version of Etude #1... (by the way, this is a faster-tempo version at 110 bpm, which replaces the slower version I posted yesterday).

    Last edited by jasaco; 02-09-2017 at 12:47 PM.

  31. #130

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    Here is my Basics #5, warts and all. I just couldn't seem to get a clean take with the camera on.

    I've created a playlist on Youtube for these exercises and watched all five in a row. I was surprised to see how much more challenging #5 is compared to #1. The increase in complexity and shear number of notes is subtle over five studies, but watching them back to back makes the differences more stark. That sure makes me feel better, because I struggled with this one. No one section was hard, I just couldn't seem to get through without making a mistake. On the plus side, picking up after a flub made me practice not loosing my place in the song. I had a LOT of practice with this one!

    Also, I noticed that this study had a lot more scalar runs and a lot less chromaticism. It was interesting. On the one hand I liked it because it had a less "corny" sound, on the other I found that I missed the idiomatic phrases of the more "jazz" lines.

    I am learning these things more or less rote without much analytic thought. I am trusting in Frank that it will sink in and become useable. However, I do note that I am not really feeling much better able to improvise over these changes. Perhaps that will come.

    In any case, enough musings. Here is the video:


  32. #131

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    Jim - that was a joy to listen to - hope you keep them coming!

  33. #132

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    Always looking a bit ahead out of sheer curiosity, I had a peep into #2. Some challenging stretches all over the place, this one will not come easy....

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett

    I am learning these things more or less rote without much analytic thought. I am trusting in Frank that it will sink in and become useable. However, I do note that I am not really feeling much better able to improvise over these changes. Perhaps that will come.
    Go back to those exercises when you have them memorized so you can play them without looking at the chart and then start to analyze the notes in regards of their relationship to the underlying (or implied) chords. You will learn a lot by that - at least I did (with choruses I have been working on for some time).

  35. #134

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    Even though most of you haven't gotten to Etude #1 yet, I want to park an observation about it here for future reference. When playing the pedal steel version, it dawned on me that, at the start of the bridge, where the chords in the 1st bar are Bm7 / E7, the melody calls for a reverse D7 triad arpeggio (A F# D) over the Bm7. Now, while I was aware that Bm7 contains the same notes as D6, I'd never made the connection between Bm7 and D7 until then:

    D7: D F# A C

    Bm7: B D F# A

    So, D7 is the same as Bm7 (with the exception of the C note which would be a b9 in Bm7, and the B note which would be an 13 in D7 so, in general, D7 can be subbed for Bm7. Now, since, in this Etude, the Bm7 is already a 5m sub for the E7, this means that D7 can be played over E7. What happens when we do that? Well, in relation to E7, the tones of a D7 are:

    D (b7) F# (9) A (11) B (5) C (+5)

    So D7 gives you some inside and outside pitches over an E7. I'm going to spend a little time with BIAB today, making up lines using these D7 pitches over E7 and see if I can make music out of it. I'll let you know how it works out...

    If anyone else has any comments or observations about this point, or another helpful way to think of it, or rule of thumb, or whatever, I'd be interested to hear (er, 'read') it.

    Thanks,
    Jim
    Last edited by jasaco; 02-09-2017 at 02:34 PM.

  36. #135

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    p.s. BTW, I just swapped out my pedal steel version of Etude 1 for a somewhat faster version (110 bpm), in case you want to check it out again.

  37. #136

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    In the interest of catching up a bit, here's etude 1 at practice tempo of 80. Keeping it a bit slower still to facilitate a few bits I haven't fully worked out yet. Will likely try to bump the tempo up and repost in a few days.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    ...where the chords in the 1st bar are Bm7 / E7, the melody calls for a reverse D7 triad arpeggio (A F# D) over the Bm7. Now, while I was aware that Bm7 contains the same notes as D6, I'd never made the connection between Bm7 and D7 until then:

    D7: D F# A C

    Bm7: B D F# A

    and, in fact:

    Bm9: B D F# A C
    D13: D F# A C B
    Although Bm7 is ii in A maj here, so it should be C#, and the triad DF#A would be extended to a maj 7th rather than dominant, and BDF#AC is Bmb9?

  39. #138

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    You are correct. Thanks for catching that. I've edited my original post accordingly.
    Last edited by jasaco; 02-09-2017 at 02:34 PM.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco

    If anyone else has any comments or observations about this point, or another helpful way to think of it, or rule of thumb, or whatever, I'd be interested to hear (er, 'read') it.

    Thanks,
    Jim
    Probably lots of possible theoretical explanations. What comes to mind is that Bm7 is IIIm of G and D7 is V7 of G so they are related while E7(b9) could be seen as a secondary dominant sub for the Em in the key of G.

    So if notes from D7 and E7 both work they have a "blues" relationship to the key of A, the next chord in the bridge.

    When you're going for a blues sound all kinds of notes work that at first sight don't seem to make sense....

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    What comes to mind is that Bm7 is IIIm of G and D7 is V7 of G so they are related while E7(b9) could be seen as a secondary dominant sub for the Em in the key of G.
    Thanks for engaging in the commentary and discussion, Tommo. Personally, I don't see or hear us being in the key of G anywhere in this song. The main key, of course, is C major. Then the bridge is a cycle of III7 VI7 II7 V7 secondary dominants (except for the V7 which is normally dominant anyway). But, in my mind at least, that doesn't really constitute a key change, especially not at the point of the Bm7/E7 (one could argue that we're temporarily in A however). But instead of going to the A, it goes to A7, the next secondary dominant in the series, up a fourth. Rinse, repeat, around the horn till we land back at C.

    I haven't yet had time to fool around with D7 arps over E7 but will get to it and report back...

    Thanks,
    jasaco

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Thanks for engaging in the commentary and discussion, Tommo. Personally, I don't see or hear us being in the key of G anywhere in this song. The main key, of course, is C major. Then the bridge is a cycle of III7 VI7 II7 V7 secondary dominants (except for the V7 which is normally dominant anyway). But, in my mind at least, that doesn't really constitute a key change, especially not at the point of the Bm7/E7 (one could argue that we're temporarily in A however). But instead of going to the A, it goes to A7, the next secondary dominant in the series, up a fourth. Rinse, repeat, around the horn till we land back at C.

    I haven't yet had time to fool around with D7 arps over E7 but will get to it and report back...

    Thanks,
    jasaco
    Yes - you're right - we're not in the key of G - I was just pointing out (or trying to) some possible relationships there. "But instead of goung to the A, it goes to A7". That's right, but in blues, all chords are dom7 chords, regardless of key, so E7 and D7 are related to the key of A in blues....

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    ...in blues, all chords are dom7 chords, regardless of key, so E7 and D7 are related to the key of A in blues....
    OK, yes, I see your point…

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Even though most of you haven't gotten to Etude #1 yet, I want to park an observation about it here for future reference. When playing the pedal steel version, it dawned on me that, at the start of the bridge, where the chords in the 1st bar are Bm7 / E7, the melody calls for a reverse D7 triad arpeggio (A F# D) over the Bm7. Now, while I was aware that Bm7 contains the same notes as D6, I'd never made the connection between Bm7 and D7 until then:

    D7: D F# A C

    Bm7: B D F# A

    So, D7 is the same as Bm7 (with the exception of the C note which would be a b9 in Bm7, and the B note which would be an 13 in D7 so, in general, D7 can be subbed for Bm7. Now, since, in this Etude, the Bm7 is already a 5m sub for the E7, this means that D7 can be played over E7. What happens when we do that? Well, in relation to E7, the tones of a D7 are:

    D (b7) F# (9) A (11) B (5) C (+5)

    So D7 gives you some inside and outside pitches over an E7. I'm going to spend a little time with BIAB today, making up lines using these D7 pitches over E7 and see if I can make music out of it. I'll let you know how it works out...

    If anyone else has any comments or observations about this point, or another helpful way to think of it, or rule of thumb, or whatever, I'd be interested to hear (er, 'read') it.

    Thanks,
    Jim
    FWIW, I understand that it is fairly common to use the IVmaj7 arpeggio over a ii-V. It provides you with the extensions over someone comping on a plain vanilla ii-V. Likewise, using the VIbmaj7 works over an altered ii-V because it highlights all those altered tones. It works over a iidim-V7alt, for e.g.

    Knowing that theory doesn't mean I can use it! Still, I think that is easily one way to look at it. You have a B-7 which can be substituted for or mixed in with a E7. As others have said, that briefly implies a A^. Playing a Dmaj7 (or even D7) gives you the extensions to B-7 or E7. Sounds nice.

    Of course, in music there are many ways to look at the same thing. But this IV or VIb maj 7 concept over a ii-V-I helps keep you thinking just in maj7 arpeggios, which can simplify playing a bit. I doesn't hurt that it sounds pretty hip as well.

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    FWIW, I understand that it is fairly common to use the IVmaj7 arpeggio over a ii-V. It provides you with the extensions over someone comping on a plain vanilla ii-V. Likewise, using the VIbmaj7 works over an altered ii-V because it highlights all those altered tones. It works over a iidim-V7alt, for e.g.
    So, for example, over D- and G7 (a ii- V7 in C) one could use the F Maj 7 arp (IV chord). Right?
    And over Dm7b5 and G7alt (-a minor ii-V) one could play an Ab Maj 7 arp (bVI maj 7). Right?

  46. #145

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    So here's my version of Basics 3 - shaky rhythm. I still keep an eye on the chart and that takes away some concentration...



  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    So, for example, over D- and G7 (a ii- V7 in C) one could use the F Maj 7 arp (IV chord). Right?
    And over Dm7b5 and G7alt (-a minor ii-V) one could play an Ab Maj 7 arp (bVI maj 7). Right?
    Yes, exactly.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  48. #147

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    TrueFire is having a sale this weekend: buy-one-get-one-free. (It's related to Valentine's Day, so they're selling things in pairs, or as couples.) So I finally pulled the trigger on Frank's "Modern Guitar Method." 4.5 GB of material. It's not specifically jazz instruction but 'how to play guitar' instruction. Much of it is basic but it is thorough and a good way to fill in the gaps in one's knowledge.


    Frank talks more about picking here than anywhere else I have seen. He doesn't have any fancy / special grip or approach to picking. (He's of the "whatever's comfortable" school.) But he does recommend doing some exercises with all downstrokes. (He has described his own picking as "mostly down".) And he thinks melodies sound better this way. So this morning I played the 5 "basics" with all downstrokes. Can't say it changed my life but it is a more even sound.

    In case anyone here is interested in this, now's the time to pick it up. (Make sure the other thing you pick--to get the discount--is of nearly the same price.)

    Modern Method for Guitar - Frank Vignola - TrueFire

  49. #148

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    Etude 1, up to 100 bpm, still sloppy.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    ...he does recommend doing some exercises with all downstrokes. (He has described his own picking as "mostly down".) And he thinks melodies sound better this way. So this morning I played the 5 "basics" with all downstrokes. Can't say it changed my life but it is a more even sound.
    I've heard that mostly (or all) down is the Gypsy jazz style and they certainly can fly at fast tempos. I just don't really understand how that can be faster than alternate or economy picking, when you have to bring your pick back up to the topside of every string before you can hit it again. Can you enlighten me on that, Mark?

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I've heard that mostly (or all) down is the Gypsy jazz style and they certainly can fly at fast tempos. I just don't really understand how that can be faster than alternate or economy picking, when you have to bring your pick back up to the topside of every string before you can hit it again. Can you enlighten me on that, Mark?
    O, Frank doesn't say it is faster. Or as fast. He likes that sound better. Also, as he has said a few times, most melodies in standards are not that fast. (Lots of quarter notes in melodies, sometimes half-notes and hole-notes too.) So using mostly downstrokes for melodies (-unless they're bebop heads) isn't a problem of speed but of habit.

    Christian77 here talks about using lots and lots of downstrokes. Charlie Christian played mostly downstrokes. Joe Pass recommended using a downstroke whenever changing to another string because that gives lines more punch. It also allows you to concentrate on tone and fingering when learning a new exercise / scale / pattern / melody. The right hand is always the same. Tends to make players slow down too, which is a boon to learning! ;o)