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  1. #51

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    Good to see so many up and running with this.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Is that cool or what?




    (I posted this in the "Comping, Chords and Chord Progressions" forum; perhaps some who see the video there will join us here. Wouldn't it be nice?)
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 01-30-2017 at 11:02 AM.

  4. #53

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    Way cool! What a nice guy to do this!

  5. #54

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    Basics 2


  6. #55

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    Not sure if there's any interest in this group of watching these takes on pedal steel or not. So, if I get a few 'Likes' on the videos, I'll keep posting them here. Otherwise, I'll spare you and just post them over at the Steel Guitar Forum. Don't worry, I won't be offended if you don't 'Like' them; I know it's not your instrument...

    Meanwhile, here's Basic-3 in Bb...


  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Not sure if there's any interest in this group of watching these takes on pedal steel or not.
    As for me: keep 'em coming! What a beautiful sound!

    I'm a bottleneck slide player myself and dabble a bit in lap steel. I have one six-string lapsteel tuned to C6. Did you use the pedals and levers much?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Did you use the pedals and levers much?
    I used them sparingly in the actual Vignola exercise portion and everything I played in that could be readily played without pedals (but there would be a little more bar movement). Most of it could be done easily on a C6 lap steel. When I played ad-lib solos in the middle, I used the pedals more.

    Some of the occasional hesitation you'll see/hear in my playing of the exercises comes from my brain trying to make a very quick decision of whether to change frets or use a pedal or knee lever, since there are so many different ways to play them on a pedal steel and I haven't yet built up a strong muscle-memory around one way.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Not sure if there's any interest in this group of watching these takes on pedal steel
    I really like these pedal steel videos. Unfortunately I am getting a little GAS and consider getting such a thing. But then I realize, that I would have to learn to play it - so I resist. But please continue to post them!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by hats
    I really like these pedal steel videos. Unfortunately I am getting a little GAS and consider getting such a thing. But then I realize, that I would have to learn to play it - so I resist.
    That is a very wise decision. Stick to your guns!

  11. #60

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    I think it would be a good idea for us to chat about these exercises and not just play them, lest we (read, "I") end up doing so mindlessly. So, I went back to take another look at them on paper, analytically, and what I see is:


    1. All of the first 3 exercises consist basically of guide tone lines, i.e., leaning heavily on the 3rds and 7ths, with some use of roots and 5ths and not much else.
    2. In Basic-1, the bridge consists of 3 chromatic walk-ups from the 3rd to the 5th of each of the first 3 chords (E7, A7, D7).
    3. There are some very occasional 7b9 chords included. When I studied with Jimmy Bruno, one of his pet peeves was that people would write a chord with the color tone or extension as part of the name of the chord (e.g. G7b9), instead of writing it as a simple 7th chord, over which you happen to be playing the b9 tone. I think his argument is that, if it is written into the chart, then you damn well better play that accidental every time, whereas, if it's left off, then the soloist (and the comper) is at liberty to add spice whenever and however they wish. Makes sense to me. But I guess Frank is here just pointing out that when you do play that b9 tone over the 7th chord, it creates a 7b9 chord. Ok, fair enough. Don't need to make a federal case out of it...
    4. Looking ahead, it looks like Basic-4 will introduce a number of new concepts and tones. For starters, it converts the bridge from all Dom7ths to a sequence of iim7/V7s, introduces use of an augmented 5th, and leans more heavily on 7b9 chords throughout the 'A' sections (almost every other chord is a 7b9). He uses them where in Basic-3, he previously used a Dim7 chord. For example, in Basic-3, second chord of the 1st bar is #Idim (i.e., Bdim BDFAb); in Basic-4, that has been changed to a VI7b9 (i.e., G7b9 GBDFAb) - almost identical except that the G7b9 is rootless, no G. So, if the bassist decides to play a G, it will sound like VI7b9; if s/he plays a B, it will sound like Bdim. Either way, it should sound good. But one implication for soloing is that you can use any diminished lines you've learned, or think up on the spot, over a 7b9 chord EXCEPT for the root! Conversely, over the dim7 chord, you can play any dom7th arps or runs based on the tone a M3 below the root (so for Bdim, root is B, go a M3 lower and get G; use G7 lines). Seems like we ought to finish Basic-4 with a real good sense of the 7b9 and #5 sounds in our ears, plus the interchangeability of dim7 and 7b9 chords. Addendum: I just spotted that he also introduces the tritone sub in the chord changes. In bar 9, at the start of the second statement of the 'A' section, he replaces the VI7b9 (G7b9) with biiim7 (Dbm7), which will descend chromatically a half step to the iim7 (Cm7) chord.


    Any other observations from the rest of y'all playing this game?

    Cheers,
    jasaco
    Last edited by jasaco; 01-31-2017 at 11:14 PM.

  12. #61

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    I'm very interested in this topic - is this the book you are working from and does the audio include backing tracks or just recordings of the examples/etudes?

    Frank Vignola's Complete Rhythm Changes Play-Along for Guitar eBook+Online Audio - Mel Bay Publications, Inc. : Mel Bay

    Will

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
    I'm very interested in this topic - is this the book you are working from and does the audio include backing tracks or just recordings of the examples/etudes?

    Frank Vignola's Complete Rhythm Changes Play-Along for Guitar eBook+Online Audio - Mel Bay Publications, Inc. : Mel Bay

    Will
    Great! Yes, that is the book we're using and we'd be glad to have you join us. We're still early on, so it's still easy to catch up. The first few tracks don't have backing tracks but after those, he plays the exercise to demonstrate it, then lets his backing track continue for a few more choruses, so you can play over the same track he's using.

    For the first few, I made my own Band in a Box tracks, which I'm happy to email to anyone who has BIAB and would like them. I think someone else in the group has offered to share iReal Book tracks. Worst case scenario, I could export my BIAB track as an mp3 and email you that, if you need something to play against.

    Either way, yes! Do join us!
    Last edited by jasaco; 01-31-2017 at 11:46 PM.

  14. #63
    I use the tracks that came with the book but I also use iRealBook and make my own backing tracks with Frank's Chord Progressions.

  15. #64
    It seems to me that there are a few major differences between Basics 1 and Basics 2.

    First, Basics 1 has much more movement than Basics 2.

    The first 8 bars of Basics 1 are : C A D G C A D G C Bb A Ab C

    The first 8 bars of Basics 2 are : G G A Ab G G A B C C C C C

    Secondly, the Bridges are very different. Basics 1 moves up steadily, whereas Basics 2 features arpeggios.

    I think that Frank's point is that there are different ways to approach what is basically the same chord progression.

    There's my 2 cents

  16. #65

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    Recorded number 3 and then realized I hadn't recorded number 2, so these were back to back.

    Sitting nearer the boombox this time but the backing track (the CD that came with the book) is scarcely audible. I've got two more 'basics' to use as experiments in where I sit and where the camera goes. Maybe by the time we get to the etudes, I'll have worked out the kinks.





  17. #66

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    Basics-4

    (I think I may have hit one wrong note toward the of the first chorus but I think I redeemed myself in the 2nd chorus )


  18. #67

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    ... and the Pedal Steel version of Basics-4

    (As in the guitar version, I think one 3-note phrase may be a tad off toward the end...at least I'm consistent! )

    I feel a little like Ginger Rogers who once told Fred Astaire, "I have to do everything you do, only backwards - and in heels!" LOL!


  19. #68

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    Hi - I'm quite late. Haven't recorded in quite a long time, and never a video clip with this camera so I had to sort out some quirks first. Sorry for the boomy bass - I'll have to work on that for the next clip). So here's my shaky take on Basics 1 (more like a test drive for the camera....LOL!):



  20. #69

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    I must say that doing these exercises is also really helping my reading skills on guitar since I never look at the tablature. So I'm meeting two of my objectives simultaneously with these exercises.

  21. #70

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    Book arrived, so I better get moving and try and keep up...

  22. #71

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    Basic No. 2

    Struggling to keep up!


  23. #72

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    Here's Basics 2:





  24. #73

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    Here is the last of the 'Basics' exercises (Yay!), #5.

    As you'll see, I've also decided to get more out of each exercise by singing along with it (during the second chorus), to connect the dots on the page with the fingering and with my ear and the sound in my head. I think this will be of great value to me. YMMV, but I doubt it!

    A word of caution. There is a typo in the chart which shows the 2nd chord as Bbdim, when it really should be Bdim, just as in the previous exercises.


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco

    As you'll see, I've also decided to get more out of each exercise by singing along with it (during the second chorus), to connect the dots on the page with the fingering and with my ear and the sound in my head.
    Herb Ellis talked about that a lot. In his book "Rhythm Shapes," he wrote, "I cannot emphasize how important it is to sing what you play or play what you are singing. You do not have to be a singer. You do not have to sing loudly, or even above your breath. Scatting, as this is sometimes called, directly improves your ability to play what you hear, which in turn, sounds less like someone playing memorized patterns." (Herb Ellis, "Rhythm Shapes," page 8)

  26. #75

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    Another quote by Herb Ellis: "If you can't sing it it ain't worth playing!"

    Mention that to a shredder.....

    More typos ahead.....

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco

    A word of caution. There is a typo in the chart which shows the 2nd chord as Bbdim, when it really should be Bdim, just as in the previous exercises.
    Just checked that and I don't think it's a typo. First of all: it sounds good! Second: there's more examples where it's a Bdim in one measure and Bbdim in another (in the same etude). Then there is a chorus in F, where the second chord is Abdim (same as Fdim).

    Another consideration: Bbdim is the same as Dbdim and Dbdim can function as a tritone sub for G7b9, if I'm not totally off-track....

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Just checked that and I don't think it's a typo. First of all: it sounds good! Second: there's more examples where it's a Bdim in one measure and Bbdim in another (in the same etude). Then there is a chorus in F, where the second chord is Abdim (same as Fdim).

    Another consideration: Bbdim is the same as Dbdim and Dbdim can function as a tritone sub for G7b9, if I'm not totally off-track....
    OK, thanks. I'll listen closer and look into it more...

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Just checked that and I don't think it's a typo. First of all: it sounds good! Second: there's more examples where it's a Bdim in one measure and Bbdim in another (in the same etude). Then there is a chorus in F, where the second chord is Abdim (same as Fdim).

    Another consideration: Bbdim is the same as Dbdim and Dbdim can function as a tritone sub for G7b9, if I'm not totally off-track....
    OK, thank you Tommo. I went back and rechecked it and, you're absolutely right (as is Frank) -- that certainly does work. I stand corrected. Imagine that, silly me, thinking I'd caught a typo in Frank's work. Pffftttt!

    Working on the steel guitar version now...
    Last edited by jasaco; 02-03-2017 at 08:52 PM.

  30. #79

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    And now, as promised, for your listening and dancing pleasure, I give you exercise 'Basics-5', adapted for the C6 electric cheese slicer...


  31. #80

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    No. 3. Sorry about the boring camera angle.

    I am really liking these exercises. I find the little melodies to be fun and memorable. They stick in my head. This whole experiment is new for me. I usually don't learn melodies verbatim. Most of the material I have will say something like, "try playing an arpeggio starting with the root over each chord. Then target the third, etc..." I'm not thinking about any of that for these exercises. I'm just playing the notes. I don't know if that is good or bad, but I'm sure enjoying it more! It feels more like music and less like math.

    I also am liking the discipline of recording myself for this study group. Listening to yourself play is a little like seeing yourself naked in the mirror. It is a bit jarring to see all the flaws; but you also get to say to yourself, "hey, you're not so bad".

    As far as singing the notes, that seems to be the only way for me. If I don't have the melody in my head, it's not coming out. I don't have good enough singing by sight reading to just sing without the guitar, but working out the tunes I am definitely putting the guitar aside a little and just singing as I learn the melodies. In fact, I notice that when I stop singing the notes (or humming, or just mentally playing it) and focus on fingering or the instrument I make more mistakes. I just hope that when the exercises get more complicated the music won't become too difficult to sing.


  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Imagine that, silly me, thinking I'd caught a typo in Frank's work. Pffftttt!
    Well, the first time I saw Bbdim following a Bb I thought that it was a mistake or typo myself but seeing it in the following etudes again I played the chord progression - it sounded good and logical - and I started thinking how this would fit...and then it seemed to make sense.

  33. #82

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    Here's something interesting I found in "The Berklee Book Of Jazz Harmony" in the chapter about diminished 7th chords:

    "Auxiliary diminished chords are created by lowering the 3,5 and 7 of Maj7 or V7. I°7 is used to alternate with I6 or IMaj7 for a mild pulsation of colour without abandoning the tonic."

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I am really liking these exercises. I find the little melodies to be fun and memorable. They stick in my head. This whole experiment is new for me. I usually don't learn melodies verbatim. Most of the material I have will say something like, "try playing an arpeggio starting with the root over each chord. Then target the third, etc..." I'm not thinking about any of that for these exercises. I'm just playing the notes. I don't know if that is good or bad, but I'm sure enjoying it more! It feels more like music and less like math.
    I agree they are catchy. And also skeletal. I think they are designed to focus on strong tones for beginning and ending phrases so that later, when the lines get busier, we retain a sense of the skeleton holding the lines together.

  35. #84

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    Something Jasaco mentioned earlier: the tab often suggests playing B natural on the 9th fret of the D string (fourth string from the bottom or high E string) but it may be easier to play that B on the fourth fret of the G string. It's the same note (tone) just a different fingering. But I would rather reach back than stretch forward, as the latter seems to pull my hand out of position. My two cents...

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I agree they are catchy. And also skeletal. I think they are designed to focus on strong tones for beginning and ending phrases so that later, when the lines get busier, we retain a sense of the skeleton holding the lines together.
    That's what Mr.Vignola mentions on p.3: "strong starting, ending and middle notes for your lines". I have to admit that I skipped those basic exercises when I first got the book, not realising how useful they can be....

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Something Jasaco mentioned earlier: the tab often suggests playing B natural on the 9th fret of the D string (fourth string from the bottom or high E string) but it may be easier to play that B on the fourth fret of the G string. It's the same note (tone) just a different fingering. But I would rather reach back than stretch forward, as the latter seems to pull my hand out of position. My two cents...

    So far I have been learning and memorizing about a dozen choruses of solos over RC (half of them from FV's books) and I have always adjusted the suggested fingerings (after trying them) to my liking. I have been a blues player for 40+years and I have my habits although I have changed quite a few of them learning jazz guitar, including using the pinky much more than I used to do.

    Anyway: this here is a lot of fun and I'm enjoying it!

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    That's what Mr.Vignola mentions on p.3: "strong starting, ending and middle notes for your lines". I have to admit that I skipped those basic exercises when I first got the book, not realising how useful they can be....
    I did too! I've spent more time on etude #3 (the first one in Bb) than anything else in the book. I actually got Volume 3 first and learned a few of those etudes note-for-note some time back.

  39. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Something Jasaco mentioned earlier: the tab often suggests playing B natural on the 9th fret of the D string (fourth string from the bottom or high E string) but it may be easier to play that B on the fourth fret of the G string. It's the same note (tone) just a different fingering. But I would rather reach back than stretch forward, as the latter seems to pull my hand out of position. My two cents...
    I prefer to play that B on the third string as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I did too! I've spent more time on etude #3 (the first one in Bb) than anything else in the book. I actually got Volume 3 first and learned a few of those etudes note-for-note some time back.
    Actually this sounds like you're quoting me....LOL!

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    So far I have been learning and memorizing about a dozen choruses of solos over RC (half of them from FV's books) and I have always adjusted the suggested fingerings (after trying them) to my liking.

    I do that too. In one of his books, Frank recommends that. He once said there are over a hundred ways to play / finger a C major scale. I'm sure he knows them all. But I don't want a hundred---I just want a few. (This is one reason I like the Herb Ellis approach: relate melodic ideas to chord shapes rather than to scale fingerings.)

    One thing I need to do more---much more---is to transpose the solos I have learned to other keys. For rhythm changes, F, Eb, Ab (or G) and C seem most useful.

  42. #91

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    Just as I was saying that I thought these melodies were catchy, this one I just didn't click with. It shows in the playing too.


  43. #92

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    In another book that was once much-discussed here, "Connecting Chords Through Linear Harmony," author Bert Ligon talks about "outlines," and three in particular: 3217, 1357, and 3579. (These numbers refer to intervals. Over a C7 chord they would be, in order, E, D, C, Bb; C, E, G, Bb; and E, G, Bb, D.) These outlines, or patterns, occur over and over again in the playing of great jazz musicians.

    Ligon provides a few etudes in his book over some basic changes (a 12-bar blues, rhythm changes, There Will Never Be Another You, and, IIRC, Stella. Maybe All the Things You Are too.)

    Frank is giving us some tools that are probably more important than we are yet able to realize. When we get to the etudes----and as the dog said when his tail got run over by a train, "It won't be long now!"----we can look book and see how this or that line relates to part of this or that "basic".

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    relate melodic ideas to chord shapes rather than to scale fingerings.
    Garrison Fewell's concept in his books is similar: creating melodies with basic triads plus extensions and pulling melodic material from the stacked triads and four-note partial chords of a chord and its possible extensions. Add passing scale tones, enclosures and indirect approaches for the guide tones and you have a good base to work from.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Bert Ligon talks about "outlines," and three in particular: 3217, 1357, and 3579. (These numbers refer to intervals. Over a C7 chord they would be, in order, E, D, C, Bb; C, E, G, Bb; and E, G, Bb, D.) These outlines, or patterns, occur over and over again in the playing of great jazz musicians.
    Thanks - will try those. The "Coltrane pattern" works well, too. Picked that up from Matt Warnock's "Beginner's Guide to Rhythm Changes". Pattern goes: 1-2-3-5.

  45. #94

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    Here is Basics #4. My least favorite of them. (rlrhett and I seem to be on the same page here.)

    I remember a line from school, "D means done!" Gimme me my D on this and let's move along....


  46. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    In another book that was once much-discussed here, "Connecting Chords Through Linear Harmony," author Bert Ligon talks about "outlines," and three in particular: 3217, 1357, and 3579. (These numbers refer to intervals. Over a C7 chord they would be, in order, E, D, C, Bb; C, E, G, Bb; and E, G, Bb, D.) These outlines, or patterns, occur over and over again in the playing of great jazz musicians.

    Ligon provides a few etudes in his book over some basic changes (a 12-bar blues, rhythm changes, There Will Never Be Another You, and, IIRC, Stella. Maybe All the Things You Are too.)

    Frank is giving us some tools that are probably more important than we are yet able to realize. When we get to the etudes----and as the dog said when his tail got run over by a train, "It won't be long now!"----we can look book and see how this or that line relates to part of this or that "basic".
    I really like that book by Bert Ligon. I have referred to it often.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  47. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Garrison Fewell's concept in his books is similar: creating melodies with basic triads plus extensions and pulling melodic material from the stacked triads and four-note partial chords of a chord and its possible extensions. Add passing scale tones, enclosures and indirect approaches for the guide tones and you have a good base to work from.



    Thanks - will try those. The "Coltrane pattern" works well, too. Picked that up from Matt Warnock's "Beginner's Guide to Rhythm Changes". Pattern goes: 1-2-3-5.
    I like the work of Garrison Fewell as well.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Just as I was saying that I thought these melodies were catchy, this one I just didn't click with. It shows in the playing too.

    Just checking: you are choosing to play this an octave higher, yes, or are you perhaps not aware that guitar music is written one octave higher than it is supposed to be played? (You can see the intended octave from the tablature). Just checking, since not everyone realizes this...

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Just checking: you are choosing to play this an octave higher, yes, or are you perhaps not aware that guitar music is written one octave higher than it is supposed to be played? (You can see the intended octave from the tablature). Just checking, since not everyone realizes this...
    It started as a mistake, but has become intentional. I didn't look at the tab. To be honest somehow I didn't even realize it was tab. Weird way in which he makes the notes around the numbers. But I read music OK.

    I've been working on chord-melody stuff lately, and most of the material I have advise moving the melody up an octave to be able to self-accompany. But they don't usually adapt the notation. It's hard to read all those floating notes above the staff.

    When I saw the first exercise I just mentally raised it without really thinking. After that I saw the other videos people have posted and realized my mistake. But then I tried playing it in the register it was written and I didn't like it. I'm in the habit of loosely organizing the guitar into three courses of two strings: 1-2 for melody, 3-4 for chord tones, and 5-6 for bass notes. Not hard and fast rules, just habit. Playing the melody in such a low register sounded muddy to my ears. I am expecting the melody to lie on those first strings.

    So I've kept up. Started as a mistake but has become a conscious choice. On this last one I ended up above the 12th fret, but not too far. If the melodies move too high, I'll play them as written. Or maybe I'll shift part of the melody back down. I tried that for that part over the dominant chords, but still sounded off to me. I've been thinking about what to do when the issue arrises, but so far Frank has kept it all pretty low in the register.

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    I really like that book by Bert Ligon. I have referred to it often.
    I did some work in it a few years ago but plan to re-visit it this year. My picking is better. (For a couple years there I was changing my grip so much that I couldn't focus on what I was actually playing. Also, I learned some things with a grip I no longer use and should get 'em down the way I would actually play them now.)

    Would be interesting to compare his rhythm "basics" with Frank's.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett

    I'm in the habit of loosely organizing the guitar into three courses of two strings: 1-2 for melody, 3-4 for chord tones, and 5-6 for bass notes. Not hard and fast rules, just habit. Playing the melody in such a low register sounded muddy to my ears. I am expecting the melody to lie on those first strings.
    I can see that. My approach is different. Coming from a rock and blues background, I often lower the melody so that it is in the register of a rock riff! For example, I play "There Will Never Be Another You" and "These Foolish Things" in a lower register (-same key) than most guitarists, avoiding the high strings because they make the melody seem too thin. (To my imperfect ears.) I think this is why Wes used octaves for melody lines---they thicken things up.

    Having said this, the second etude in Frank's book is lower than I'd like. But I'm learning it as written (or tabbed) because I could use the practice in that position.