The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #676

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    If you find the ignore button extremely....try the door!!

    P.S
    I'll give you another chance to use the ignore button.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #677

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh
    If you find the ignore button extremely....try the door!!

    P.S
    I'll give you another chance to use the ignore button.
    Thanks for chance! But I choose myself!

    Really my post could be disturbing provocative but it is thoughtful, thought can be tight, and it can make people feel nervous.
    Answering it the way it was treated here 1000 years ago would have meant interdict and bonfire (good golden days!). Today it seems like just thinking itself means immidiate interdiction.

    I never insulted anyone in it, even mentioning Barry Harris was full of respect. But I was immidiately taught and explained what I think and who am I.

    If one reads it carefully he will probably see that it concerns mostly the essential thing about jazz playing an education, about understanding jazz as a style and it is cultural role and place as a living or dead language.

    It is long? Yes, I type faster than I speak. But it is f*** fun.

    If you do not want genral speculations no problem..
    but if you want to teach me.. do not expect I will miss a chance to tear you apart! That's fun for me too! Next to thinking in writing form!

    As for 'ignore button' - this is fantastic advantage of the Internet I love to use!
    With age this kind of thing becomes more and more important.

  4. #678

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I have never been in Barry's masterclass and will hardly ever be (not because I do not want it is just very little chance for me to ever be there in the right place and time).
    Nevertheless I spent already sometime with his soloing conception and harmonic conception using materials available in the internet - thanks to you guys and all those who share... and also to Alan's book... I think having enough musical expreience behind, good ear and decent technique you can actually learn many things from it yourself... I am not only getting familiar with it, I really practice it. And I will keep it up.

    The more I do it the more I admire wit, taste and invention that Barry shows in his approach and how integral it is ..
    more integral than any other jazz approach I came across.

    I also really appreciate that he does not make a book out of it - there is something really true to style in it!
    (actually Barry reminds very much my classical harmony teacher I had as a kid - the same musicality and practical approach to everything (sit at piano and play, try, quote - but this is classical) at the same time absolutely unorthodoxal and personal theiretic too...)

    When I practice his stuff I realy enjoy how it opens up and feels.
    I immidiately see different dimemsions, directions and possibilities and this is very enjoyable thing to explore.
    I fin that I already 'knew' many things but the way he puts them is really musical and beautiful.
    I probably practice it a bit more free than I would if I were in classes.

    But on the other hand...
    the more I am into it the more suspicious I get... why.. what does it all move to actually? Not for myself... but in general... what is this all about?
    But really... there is something behind it (NOT IN IT, but behind it) that seems too comfortable and safe, too universal, too correct.. and this secure feeling is not what I realate to the idea of jazz music...

    Dont' tell me that each one can use it the way he wants and it depends on the student and so on. First it is obvious..
    Second...
    From dozens of his followers I believe only a few have real potential to treat this material with enough indiviuality to overcome it.

    Please, do not shoot at me.. it is not crititcs or negative impression.

    But I think I have the right to throw in some kind of philosophy into it? i mean where this whole thing is going to...

    If you do not care about it it is ok too of course!

    I hope you see what I mean... it is not critique but it is more about what will it make a jazz scene like if it is getting really influential? Just wondering...

    And what is jazz then...

    I mean I mentioned my classical teacher when I was a kid... how Barry reminds me of him.. but it was classical... it was about music that was all written long ago.. it was NOT about writing your own new original music... though it might help... if you.. yes if you stay within this tradition... and have enough talent to be real and alive now within such a long and old tradition...
    Also it is great if you want to become practicing musical historian - as my teacher was... greatest musical historian ever.. practical historian... is it what it is?
    you see what I mean?
    Or am I too discreet in expression of my ideas?
    I think there is some truth to this. Still working it out .

  5. #679

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Boy you are awfully delicate.

    What was the point of your post? No one asked your opinion, but that didn’t stop you. Maybe read your own post. If it isn’t about Barry Harris’ playing, then what did you think you were talking about? The point of Barry Harris’ teaching is to teach how to play like him. What were you doing?

    Either you don’t think Barry playing style is worth learning, bellyaching that his teaching wasn’t working for you, or trying to tell us that it wasn’t working for us because we lacked your vision. Which was it? because I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the least self absorbed and self reflective meaning.

    You can post on a long thread about Barry Harris that you don’t feel it works for you, fine. No one asked, but no one can stop you. But it is a rough Internet for you if you get all tears and offended at the first response that didn’t praise you glowingly for your thoughts.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Eh?

    You blatantly put words in Jonah’s mouth. It’s very annoying when I get that down to me, I’m sure you feel the same.

  6. #680
    yo ok anyway, here's something Alan e-mailed me a couple weeks ago that probably could have been a whole other chapter in his book.

    He said "Every time you pickup a guitar play this for 30 seconds."

    I/Root I7/3rd IV #ivdim7 I

    Then descending

    I/Root I7/7th IV/3rd iv/3rd I

    So that's what he told me. in the first progression I've been playing:

    I6 I7/3rd IV7 #ivdim7 I6/5th

    second one I've been doing:

    I6 I7/7th IV6/3rd iv6/3rd I6/5th

    Then, I started subbing while keeping the bass line intact.

    I've been doing this for all drop 2 and drop 3 string sets. Next, I plan on taking that bass line and putting it in each voice (soprano, alto, tenor) and keep it intact. Haven't got there yet.

    So, obviously this is bars 5 & 6 in rhythm changes. By playing this progression 1,594 times I made the minor discovery that it is exactly bars 1 & 2 of the blues.

    There's really cool stuff to be found by keeping that line intact and borrowing/subbing in other voices

  7. #681

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    yo ok anyway, here's something Alan e-mailed me a couple weeks ago that probably could have been a whole other chapter in his book.

    He said "Every time you pickup a guitar play this for 30 seconds."

    I/Root I7/3rd IV #ivdim7 I

    Then descending

    I/Root I7/7th IV/3rd iv/3rd I

    So that's what he told me. in the first progression I've been playing:

    I6 I7/3rd IV7 #ivdim7 I6/5th

    second one I've been doing:

    I6 I7/7th IV6/3rd iv6/3rd I6/5th

    Then, I started subbing while keeping the bass line intact.

    I've been doing this for all drop 2 and drop 3 string sets. Next, I plan on taking that bass line and putting it in each voice (soprano, alto, tenor) and keep it intact. Haven't got there yet.

    So, obviously this is bars 5 & 6 in rhythm changes. By playing this progression 1,594 times I made the minor discovery that it is exactly bars 1 & 2 of the blues.

    There's really cool stuff to be found by keeping that line intact and borrowing/subbing in other voices
    Right, cos everyone need to know how to get from the I to the IV.
    Any chance you can show us a video of that exercise. Sometimes I can’t fully grasp the full idea just by reading the text...

    Cheets.

  8. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal
    Right, cos everyone need to know how to get from the I to the IV.
    Any chance you can show us a video of that exercise. Sometimes I can’t fully grasp the full idea just by reading the text...

    Cheets.
    It's the least I could do after all the info you've offered here. I'll make one next time I have more than a few minutes to practice

  9. #683

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    It's the least I could do after all the info you've offered here. I'll make one next time I have more than a few minutes to practice
    Cool. Thanks

  10. #684

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    Right, cos everyone need to know how to get from the I to the IV.
    Any chance you can show us a video of that exercise. Sometimes I can’t fully grasp the full idea just by reading the text...
    I do not quite get the idea for joe's description..

    but here to me original changes look more like just playing around I - it's movement on static chord..

    I mean exactly here... if exapnded for several bars it may sound like blues as joe says

    But here it sound just like it is always I - just shifting within it... IV does not happen to have its own world as in teh blues first bars for example

  11. #685
    It's I-IV-I like in bars 5 and 6 of rhythm changes, or bars 1 and 2 of the blues. 2 beats per chord

  12. #686

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    It's I-IV-I like in bars 5 and 6 of rhythm changes, or bars 1 and 2 of the blues. 2 beats per chord
    Ah.. So 2 beats per chord is psrt of the excersise?

    And what's the idea behind it? I mean the turnaround itslef is common...

  13. #687

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    I appreciate all the comments offered from folks here. Every experienced player has ideas about things and I like to hear them.

    Ive decided I want to move forward with my own way of doing things with a good dose of Barry influence thrown in. Thanks for helping, knowing what to practice is now much easier...

  14. #688

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    So here’s literally how ive been practicing in all voicings and keys. here i am doing drop 3 in G
    1. bass lines
    2. bass lines with chords
    3. I consider subs that have the same bass note (related doms, b5 dom, tritones minor in this case. i also toy with the 5th on the 6th at the end of the 6th-string-bass section.
    4. i move on to the 5th-string-bass and improvise a little melody using borrowed notes. keep bass line intact.
    5. Here i end the video and would have started a new key and or voicing such as drop 2

    again, i didnt prepare anything this is what it looks like as i practice
    so it is just a type of changes with bass movement chosen to excersise?

    I suppose you can basically take any conventional turnaround in any more or less conventionl voicings just for practice.. right?

    I am just trying to figure out if there is something special behind this choice.. some idea I miss to get maybe...
    (yes I think too much as usually, my teacher always told me: just play this excercise, don't think why... I used to say: I can't.. even before I started playing I alread had understood where it would lead to... it seems boring to play now))) )

  15. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    so it is just a type of changes with bass movement chosen to excersise?

    I suppose you can basically take any conventional turnaround in any more or less conventionl voicings just for practice.. right?

    I am just trying to figure out if there is something special behind this choice.. some idea I miss to get maybe...
    (yes I think too much as usually, my teacher always told me: just play this excercise, don't think why... I used to say: I can't.. even before I started playing I alread had understood where it would lead to... it seems boring to play now))) )

    I'm not really comfortable in a teaching role, more just passing things along as I go. It's a true teachers job to decide how much to say directly (what the point of an exercise is for example) and how much to let the student work out.

    I think our goals are different, I'm more of a traditionalist. Sounds like you're looking for new and exciting concepts? Maybe I'm wrong?

    I'm a different type of student than you, I just put faith in my teachers and practice what they tell me. I discover the "why" along the way. That keeps me from the trap of understanding something and then getting the false impression that I can automatically play it. That was my problem in highschool, I thought once I got the concept that's all I needed. Then I figured out I couldn't play any of it in any real context.

    So when Alan told me the simple exercise, I thought "hmm, why is this important? of all the things he could tell me practice every day, why would he pick this one?" The difference here is I didn't ask Allen the reason why, I just got to work.

    Since he was specifying inversions, that was my clue that main point was a bass line. I played the bass line and thought "oh it's that old chestnut I hear everywhere." Then as I played more I thought "oh that movement is why we play IV to iv or IV to #iv dim." Then I thought "what can I do to create with this?"

    Sure, you can play any space age chord anywhere you want, but having guidelines rooted in the tradition of the past keeps us grounded and within a certain style (which is what I like). I have more than enough freedom to create.

    Sorry if this completely danced around your question
    Last edited by joe2758; 12-27-2018 at 11:30 AM.

  16. #690

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    It's called the "walk up" (by me) works in many situations (last 4 of "St. Thomas" is another well known example). It's a good vamp too.

    Bars 5-8 Rhythm Changes
    | C C7/E | F F#dim | C6/G A7 | D-7 G7 ||

    Bars 1 - 4 blues
    || C7 C7/E | F7 F#dim | C7/G | C7 Gb7 |
    |F7 | F7 | I IV7 | iii7 VI7 |
    | ii7 | V7 | I VI7 | ii7 V7 :||

  17. #691

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    OT: Any critique of the BH type application of a scale drill on a C minor blues ? (bass cleff is piano left hand)


    Minor.Blues.SCALES.pdf

  18. #692
    great examples, Tamir! I mean i knew they were interchangable in a broad sense since they are both turnarounds to one, just that we have a 1-4-1 as opposed to 1-5-1.

    I certainly hear in those videos what you’re saying, especially Barry Harris playing it starting it beat one of the first solo!

  19. #693

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    I'm not really comfortable in a teaching role, more just passing things along as I go. It's a true teachers job to decide how much to say directly (what the point of an exercise is for example) and how much to let the student work out.

    I think our goals are different, I'm more of a traditionalist. Sounds like you're looking for new and exciting concepts? Maybe I'm wrong?

    I'm a different type of student than you, I just put faith in my teachers and practice what they tell me. I discover the "why" along the way. That keeps me from the trap of understanding something and then getting the false impression that I can automatically play it. That was my problem in highschool, I thought once I got the concept that's all I needed. Then I figured out I couldn't play any of it in any real context.

    So when Alan told me the simple exercise, I thought "hmm, why is this important? of all the things he could tell me practice every day, why would he pick this one?" The difference here is I didn't ask Allen the reason why, I just got to work.

    Since he was specifying inversions, that was my clue that main point was a bass line. I played the bass line and thought "oh it's that old chestnut I hear everywhere." Then as I played more I thought "oh that movement is why we play IV to iv or IV to #iv dim." Then I thought "what can I do to create with this?"

    Sure, you can play any space age chord anywhere you want, but having guidelines rooted in the tradition of the past keeps us grounded and within a certain style (which is what I like). I have more than enough freedom to create.

    Sorry if this completely danced around your question
    Thank you. It's all vey reasonable and of course with my attitude I had problems that you described too (but I could not help it)

    And this is what I enjoy in Barry Harris study too.. how the things of traditional language begin to come out under your fingers.

    Especially with line excercises it was exciting how bop sound occasionally began to naturally shine in the soloing...

  20. #694

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    Sounds like you're looking for new and exciting concepts? Maybe I'm wrong?
    Not new... just things that lead me somewehre I feel I should be.
    ... I can't play in style, I can do it for fun but I cannot do it seriously like with all the energy that music really deserves.
    But it is my problem of course...

  21. #695

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    OT: Any critique of the BH type application of a scale drill on a C minor blues ? (bass cleff is piano left hand)


    Minor.Blues.SCALES.pdf
    Looking good

  22. #696

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    5432 get out of trouble phrases are good. Did he offer any additional ones?

    5432.MINOR.pdf

  23. #697
    anyone toyed with playing 5432 phrases on other scale degrees?

    on c major play:

    f a c e like you would on a 3 phrase. difference is since you’re starting on f you start on an upbeat.

    so that’s playing phrase 3 on the 2nd scale degree

    i lnow my example is just pivoting a chord... but it works for the other ones too and generated some new ideas for me.

    2 phrase works anywhere and has the effect of changing the same note to an upbeat or downbeat. perfect for “getting out of trouble” you can land on 3 on an upbeat then make it right with the 2 phrase

  24. #698

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    anyone toyed with playing 5432 phrases on other scale degrees?

    on c major play:

    f a c e like you would on a 3 phrase. difference is since you’re starting on f you start on an upbeat.

    so that’s playing phrase 3 on the 2nd scale degree

    i lnow my example is just pivoting a chord... but it works for the other ones too and generated some new ideas for me.

    2 phrase works anywhere and has the effect of changing the same note to an upbeat or downbeat. perfect for “getting out of trouble” you can land on 3 on an upbeat then make it right with the 2 phrase
    Lost me there joe

  25. #699

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    Lost me too, maybe you need to spell out the notes to be more clear

    For example the standard 3 Phrase in C spelled out:
    Leap down from E (3rd) and ascending G B D (V triad outline)

    (I'm guessing you are applying it to the 2nd mode of C ?).
    Are saying play the phrase a diatonic step higher?
    Leap down from F and ascending A C E ?

  26. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Lost me too, maybe you need to spell out the notes to be more clear

    For example the standard 3 Phrase in C spelled out:
    Leap down from E (3rd) and ascending G B D (V triad outline)

    (I'm guessing you are applying it to the 2nd mode of C ?).
    Are saying play the phrase a diatonic step higher?
    Leap down from F and ascending A C E ?
    you got it; sorry i wasn't clear

    so take that idea and try each phrase on each scale degree...see what ones work