The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #651

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    A question for the Barry Harris players here.


    When you improvise, what % of what you play is BH derived and what is other stuff?


    Crazy question... no matter if it about BH or any other teacher.

    Barry teaches language... teaches idiomatic things.

    You can use his stuff to 'imitate' bop through the tune. It can help you out.

    But it is not music, not improvization... it will show in your plying of course but how would you measure it? It is all you...

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  3. #652

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Crazy question... no matter if it about BH or any other teacher.

    Barry teaches language... teaches idiomatic things.

    You can use his stuff to 'imitate' bop through the tune. It can help you out.

    But it is not music, not improvization... it will show in your plying of course but how would you measure it? It is all you...
    Barry doesn't teach you how to imitate bop he teaches you how to play it. The whole point of what he teaches and how he does it is to show you how to improvise by putting small things together.

    If you have been to any of his workshops you would know that he doesn't teach set things. In his improvisation workshops, the way it works is you transcribe in real time what Barry is singing out to you over a song he decides. He's creating the music in front of you and expects you to play it back to him.

  4. #653

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    A question for the Barry Harris players here.


    When you improvise, what % of what you play is BH derived and what is other stuff?

    The point is, we take the small things Barry harris talks about on the scales and on the chords and triads, and we work on those things until it's apart of our playing. When I improvise I don't think 'okay on this chord I'm gonna play one of the things Barry said to play on this chord'. It would be impossible otherwise. The point of what Barry teaches is that you take those things and make them your own, and then eventually it will come out in your playing.

    He is teaching one way to improvise he isn't teaching you to play what he would play.

    I think that's where people get lost.

  5. #654

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    The point is, we take the small things Barry harris talks about on the scales and on the chords and triads, and we work on those things until it's apart of our playing. When I improvise I don't think 'okay on this chord I'm gonna play one of the things Barry said to play on this chord'. It would be impossible otherwise. The point of what Barry teaches is that you take those things and make them your own, and then eventually it will come out in your playing.

    He is teaching one way to improvise he isn't teaching you to play what he would play.

    I think that's where people get lost.
    It is a bit irrelevant to what I said, man.. it looks like you took out one word 'imitating' from my post and focused on it.

    Maybe because I did not express myself clearly. So could be my fault... But honestly it seems that careful reading (and wiritng) what save us from lot of misunderstandin

    My post was an answer to a very strange question above...

    I answered litterally:

    Barry teaches language... teaches idiomatic things.

    You can use his stuff to 'imitate' bop through the tune. It can help you out.

    But it is not music, not improvization... it will show in your plying of course but how would you measure it? It is all you...



    Try to read consequently and you will see that there is nothing that contradicts what you said especially if you put it in context of the previous question about 'percentage of BH in your playing'.

    I did not say 'he teaches to imitate' right? I said 'you can use it to imitate'
    I did not say that what he 'teaches is not music or improvization'... 'I said that when you use it to imitate it is'not music, not improvization'
    and so on....

  6. #655

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    It is a bit irrelevant to what I said, man.. it looks like you took out one word 'imitating' from my post and focused on it.

    Maybe because I did not express myself clearly. So could be my fault... But honestly it seems that careful reading (and wiritng) what save us from lot of misunderstandin

    My post was an answer to a very strange question above...

    I answered litterally:

    Barry teaches language... teaches idiomatic things.

    You can use his stuff to 'imitate' bop through the tune. It can help you out.

    But it is not music, not improvization... it will show in your plying of course but how would you measure it? It is all you...



    Try to read consequently and you will see that there is nothing that contradicts what you said especially if you put it in context of the previous question about 'percentage of BH in your playing'.

    I did not say 'he teaches to imitate' right? I said 'you can use it to imitate'
    I did not say that what he 'teaches is not music or improvization'... 'I said that when you use it to imitate it is'not music, not improvization'
    and so on....
    If what I said is irrelevant then what you said is kind of irrelevant to the question Petimar asked in the first place

  7. #656

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    I don’t recognise Barry’s teaching in the description Jonah gave.

  8. #657
    petimar, not ?a stupid question. I agree woth Donald Osmond in post #668

  9. #658

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    Re: Pettimar.

    Accountancy is a useful skill for tax returns, not the creative process.

  10. #659

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    I have calculated it at 28.73% currently. However this rate is forecast to increase annually in line with the Retail Price Index over the next 5 years.

  11. #660

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    ... When I improvise I don't think 'okay on this chord I'm gonna play one of the things Barry said to play on this chord'.
    The real question, however would be ...

    When you improvise, freely, in your own way, not thinking about lessons and methods, does it ever occur to you, immediately after you've played something, or later in analysis: "Hey, that thing I played, that was the thing I've learned from BH.", or "If there was not for BH, I would never have played that.", or something on those lines?

  12. #661

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    The real question, however would be ...

    When you improvise, freely, in your own way, not thinking about lessons and methods, does it ever occur to you, immediately after you've played something, or later in analysis: "Hey, that thing I played, that was the thing I've learned from BH.", or "If there was not for BH, I would never have played that.", or something on those lines?
    Frequently.

  13. #662

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I have calculated it at 28.73% currently. However this rate is forecast to increase annually in line with the Retail Price Index over the next 5 years.
    So what you are saying is, a No Deal Brexit may improve your command of Min6-dim applications?

  14. #663

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    The real question, however would be ...

    When you improvise, freely, in your own way, not thinking about lessons and methods, does it ever occur to you, immediately after you've played something, or later in analysis: "Hey, that thing I played, that was the thing I've learned from BH.", or "If there was not for BH, I would never have played that.", or something on those lines?
    Well that's more of the right line of thinking. I practice the small things he talks about. 5432, Pivoting, half step rules on dominants, running the family of dominants into each other, the thirds, arpeggios. When those things eventually come out, then I can say 'oh I just played that Barry harris concept I spent so long practicing'. But to think like that when you're trying to make music is kind of impossible and I wouldn't bother wasting time thinking oh that's something I learnt from Barry. Barry wouldn't want you to do that. He'd want you just to play the hell out of the song.
    Last edited by don_oz; 12-21-2018 at 02:11 PM.

  15. #664

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    My question was aimed at DECIDING how you want to sound and was also aimed at how you PRACTICE to get that sound. Therefore deciding what to spend your time working on.

    For example, do I want to sound 100% BH (Im not saying sound LIKE Barry, but100% using his approach).

    Do I want to sound 20% BH and 80% me?

    The reason I ask is this is actually what Im trying to detrmine right now, and it DOES influence what I practice.

    Just asking for opinions. If you think this is a stupid question, just dont answer.

  16. #665

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    One thing I have to admit that my post #666 (nice number!) was a result of an idle afternoon in front of a computer.. when I could not play guitar at the moment... and too exhausted to do anything else... more fruitful.

  17. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    My question was aimed at DECIDING how you want to sound and was also aimed at how you PRACTICE to get that sound. Therefore deciding what to spend your time working on.

    For example, do I want to sound 100% BH (Im not saying sound LIKE Barry, but100% using his approach).

    Do I want to sound 20% BH and 80% me?

    The reason I ask is this is actually what Im trying to detrmine right now, and it DOES influence what I practice.

    Just asking for opinions. If you think this is a stupid question, just dont answer.
    Hmm. Aside from tunes, my technical practice has been 100% Barry Harris stuff for the last few years. Everything is pretty much practiced like sequences, but in my playing they don't show up that way...ever really.

    What it has done is made it easy to use chromatics rhythmically correctly, how to navigate through a tune, Hitting chord tones ("turning out right") in the right place without just playing arpeggios, able to just play infinitely within one scale, 7th intervals from pivoting etc... So I practice these things, but they don't come out how I practice them (specific licks, sequences etc). very small snippets of things.

    edit: what I want though is more bebop phrases in my playing, but they don't come too naturally (it's still like "ok, bebop phrase GO!")

  18. #667

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So what you are saying is, a No Deal Brexit may improve your command of Min6-dim applications?
    As long as there is no danger of a hard bop border.

  19. #668

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    My question was aimed at DECIDING how you want to sound and was also aimed at how you PRACTICE to get that sound. Therefore deciding what to spend your time working on.

    For example, do I want to sound 100% BH (Im not saying sound LIKE Barry, but100% using his approach).

    Do I want to sound 20% BH and 80% me?

    The reason I ask is this is actually what Im trying to detrmine right now, and it DOES influence what I practice.

    Just asking for opinions. If you think this is a stupid question, just dont answer.
    Actually my somewhat flippant answer of 28.73% was probably not far off the mark, in terms of how much time I spend practising the ‘harmonic’ method, and how much of it creeps into my playing of chords, comping, solo guitar etc.

    As for the improvisation (single-note) method, I’ve only just started investigating that, so not using it much yet.

  20. #669

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    As long as there is no danger of a hard bop border.
    Indeed... We must ensure the free movement of chords.

  21. #670

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    My question was aimed at DECIDING how you want to sound and was also aimed at how you PRACTICE to get that sound. Therefore deciding what to spend your time working on.

    For example, do I want to sound 100% BH (Im not saying sound LIKE Barry, but100% using his approach).

    Do I want to sound 20% BH and 80% me?

    The reason I ask is this is actually what Im trying to detrmine right now, and it DOES influence what I practice.

    Just asking for opinions. If you think this is a stupid question, just dont answer.
    If you ask 'how much Barry do you practice' I would say that's an easier question to answer.

    So about 1-3 years ago, maybe 80%... Now, a bit less, maybe 25-33%. (There's a big concept I am trying to get into my playing that isn't Barry related, and it is taking properly forever. Also I am practicing melodies and songs a lot, by ear, which is certainly not against the Barry ethos of music, so maybe it counts?)

    When I play a gig, whatever comes out comes out. A fairly large amount of this will be fairly 'canned' material that probably ended up in my playing at one point or another...

    It's my personal suspicion that about 80% of what I play is Barry derived solo wise on a straight-ahead gig, but I have no real easy way of knowing. That material has usurped a lot of the 'older' licks I had.... But that material is not Barry Harris licks - it's material I derived myself from the principles he taught me.

    Took a while to get that way.

    Comping? Less, I would say. I do a lot of 6-dim stuff when playing rhythm in a swing band etc.... Less so when comping in a modern group.

  22. #671

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    I have never been in Barry's masterclass and will hardly ever be (not because I do not want it is just very little chance for me to ever be there in the right place and time).
    Nevertheless I spent already sometime with his soloing conception and harmonic conception using materials available in the internet - thanks to you guys and all those who share... and also to Alan's book... I think having enough musical expreience behind, good ear and decent technique you can actually learn many things from it yourself... I am not only getting familiar with it, I really practice it. And I will keep it up.

    The more I do it the more I admire wit, taste and invention that Barry shows in his approach and how integral it is ..
    more integral than any other jazz approach I came across.

    I also really appreciate that he does not make a book out of it - there is something really true to style in it!
    (actually Barry reminds very much my classical harmony teacher I had as a kid - the same musicality and practical approach to everything (sit at piano and play, try, quote - but this is classical) at the same time absolutely unorthodoxal and personal theiretic too...)

    When I practice his stuff I realy enjoy how it opens up and feels.
    I immidiately see different dimemsions, directions and possibilities and this is very enjoyable thing to explore.
    I fin that I already 'knew' many things but the way he puts them is really musical and beautiful.
    I probably practice it a bit more free than I would if I were in classes.

    But on the other hand...
    the more I am into it the more suspicious I get... why.. what does it all move to actually? Not for myself... but in general... what is this all about?
    But really... there is something behind it (NOT IN IT, but behind it) that seems too comfortable and safe, too universal, too correct.. and this secure feeling is not what I realate to the idea of jazz music...

    Dont' tell me that each one can use it the way he wants and it depends on the student and so on. First it is obvious..
    Second...
    From dozens of his followers I believe only a few have real potential to treat this material with enough indiviuality to overcome it.

    Please, do not shoot at me.. it is not crititcs or negative impression.

    But I think I have the right to throw in some kind of philosophy into it? i mean where this whole thing is going to...

    If you do not care about it it is ok too of course!

    I hope you see what I mean... it is not critique but it is more about what will it make a jazz scene like if it is getting really influential? Just wondering...

    And what is jazz then...

    I mean I mentioned my classical teacher when I was a kid... how Barry reminds me of him.. but it was classical... it was about music that was all written long ago.. it was NOT about writing your own new original music... though it might help... if you.. yes if you stay within this tradition... and have enough talent to be real and alive now within such a long and old tradition...
    Also it is great if you want to become practicing musical historian - as my teacher was... greatest musical historian ever.. practical historian... is it what it is?
    you see what I mean?
    Or am I too discreet in expression of my ideas?

  23. #672

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    Barry Harris’ playing seems “too comfortable and safe, too correct” and “not jazz”?

    Then this is definitely not your thing. No point wasting your time with this. There are lots of other styles. Maybe “free jazz”?

    The point of this thread is that some of us admire Barry’s playing and appreciate the efforts he goes to explaining it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  24. #673

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Barry Harris’ playing seems “too comfortable and safe, too correct” and “not jazz”?

    Then this is definitely not your thing. No point wasting your time with this. There are lots of other styles. Maybe “free jazz”?

    The point of this thread is that some of us admire Barry’s playing and appreciate the efforts he goes to explaining it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Don't put that crap into my mouth. I did not say anything about Barry Harris's playing.
    And I did not ask your advice.
    I always knew what my thing is and what it not, and never had to ask anyone. And did not ask this time too.

  25. #674

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    Boy you are awfully delicate.

    What was the point of your post? No one asked your opinion, but that didn’t stop you. Maybe read your own post. If it isn’t about Barry Harris’ playing, then what did you think you were talking about? The point of Barry Harris’ teaching is to teach how to play like him. What were you doing?

    Either you don’t think Barry playing style is worth learning, bellyaching that his teaching wasn’t working for you, or trying to tell us that it wasn’t working for us because we lacked your vision. Which was it? because I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the least self absorbed and self reflective meaning.

    You can post on a long thread about Barry Harris that you don’t feel it works for you, fine. No one asked, but no one can stop you. But it is a rough Internet for you if you get all tears and offended at the first response that didn’t praise you glowingly for your thoughts.


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  26. #675

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Boy you are awfully delicate.

    What was the point of your post? No one asked your opinion, but that didn’t stop you. Maybe read your own post. If it isn’t about Barry Harris’ playing, then what did you think you were talking about? The point of Barry Harris’ teaching is to teach how to play like him. What were you doing?

    Either you don’t think Barry playing style is worth learning, bellyaching that his teaching wasn’t working for you, or trying to tell us that it wasn’t working for us because we lacked your vision. Which was it? because I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the least self absorbed and self reflective meaning.

    You can post on a long thread about Barry Harris that you don’t feel it works for you, fine. No one asked, but no one can stop you. But it is a rough Internet for you if you get all tears and offended at the first response that didn’t praise you glowingly for your thoughts.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I am not offended. I am excited!
    I just show you where your real place is and what you really are.
    What I wrote was real thought, what you wrote was mediocre internet cliches that do not deserve dicussion.
    I just take some pleasure in pointing it from time to time.
    Lately I felt I do not like wasting my time and find ignore button extremely helpful.
    You gave me chance to use it once again!