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It is an interesting idea. I’ll definitely shed some of these. I don’t know how well some of those work for comping another player, and playing a 2nd or 7th on adjacent strings may not be practical. But there might be some gems to mine from mechanically exploring every interval and working it through the scale.
Originally Posted by bako
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11-01-2018 04:47 PM
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Christian, after working a few years ago on many different approaches to dealing with those chromatic ascents - the one you canvas here of playing continuous 'long' scales and using two different fingerings from neighbouring positions - a friend of mine, an incredible pianist/organist, musical theorist and, as it happens, extremely knowledgeable about all things BH, shared a brilliant discovery he'd made. Originally Posted by christianm77
If you take out the common notes from each of the two ascending parent major scales at the opening of Moment's Notice ('D' & 'G' from Dmajor and Ebmajor), you're left with two DESCENDING major pentatonics: A major and Ab major! Of course, this can work in reverse with the more commonly occurring descending forms. Quite an ear opener!
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Moving 3rds is how we would on piano
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I’ll give it a go - try to remember next time I can pick up a guitar. Originally Posted by PMB
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Originally Posted by djg
Along Came Betty is another Golson tune that opens with ascending chromatic ii-vs. They weren't originally in Stablemates but BG heard a performance where they were used and he liked the sound enough to add them soon after.
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Maybe, either that or simply Eb-7 Ab7 over two bars.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
3rds
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Yeah that works too. But if you do the sideslip thing a BIT, people will think you do it all the time. Originally Posted by PMB
I see the changes thing as being able to dial the levels of detail up and down according to the needs of the soloist.
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Can anyone please explain to me the connection of Barry Harris' method to developing oneself specifically as a Bebop player? Originally Posted by christianm77
Oh, that's just a catch phrase, sorry. Of course Barry Harris is often associated with BeBop style and his methos is also most of the time presented as a '(sure?) way to BeBop land'.
However I wonder about the following. Chris mentioned that he hears Barry Harris' "influences" in Bud Powell's lines. Or is it the other way round? That is Barry Harris was directly influenced by Bud Powell? Or, maybe they were hanging around in 1940-s and teaching each other BeBop that was invented by Charlie Parker?
What I can't understand is what Barry Harris' method is in relation to BeBop. Does it depict the very essence of the style or does it go any further than the original BeBop style?
If it's the first than there is obvious contradiction between the level of complexity of BeBop itself (which is not that complicated) and a sophisticated approach of Barry Harris that is supposed to open doors to the style. It looks like the approach is more sophisticated than the style itself.
I mean people on this forum are often puzzled by Barry Harris' harmonic structures and even can't agree on whether all that 6th stuff has its place in single line playing or is it only for "harmony"?
If BeBop was originally so complicated and the way to its understanding was paved through such a sophisticated method it wouldn't probably evolve at all. It would be stuck half-way between its conception and implementation.
Oh, I'm not against Barry Harris' method and he's definitely an influential and great musician in all respects. I also see a big picture of his harmonic approach aimed at developing smoothness of voice leading while retaining the tension/resolution relationship between harmonies in a subtle and understated way.
No question his method is great and useful in it's own right.
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I always assumed Bud Powell came first, he was 5 years older than Barry and made his first recording in 1947 when Barry was only 18.
I think if you watch all of the 'Things I learned from Barry Harris' videos posted by Chris on youtube they should answer most of these questions. Certainly they helped me see how the scales etc. can be developed into bebop lines. Bear in mind Barry tried to codify rules and scales to help people play bebop, it's going to be more formal and complicated than just doing it by ear (which is essentially what I've been doing all these years!). I can play lines similar to the ones Chris plays, but maybe I would have got there much quicker if I'd used Barry's method. Having said that, I do think you need to absorb the language from the records as well though, at least that's my opinion.
Yes the sixth/dim stuff also has application to single note lines, I think that is demonstrated in one of Chris' videos.
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Can't be arsed, sorry. Originally Posted by VKat
Do it or don't do it. See if it works for you.
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lol that's the short answer. Originally Posted by christianm77
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You can clearly tell Bud influenced Barry. Barry's method of teaching improvisation and harmony is just a way to cleanly deliver some of the things the greats were playing. Bud and Barry were good friends as was Barry and monk too. Barry just became good at teaching, every player you can think ofz he probably taught. Over time he developed a succinct and accessible way to showing people how to play Bebop and how to use chords and harmony to create movements and play chords/comp. Originally Posted by VKat
Some of the shit Barry has you play in his workshops are other worldly. He makes you play notes you didn't know exist. The best thing to do is go all in, go to his workshops, watch all the YouTube videos he has of his workshops and you'll reap the rewardsLast edited by don_oz; 11-10-2018 at 07:13 PM.
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osmond, where did you hear he was good friends with Bud? That's really cool, i had never heard that. Bud is all over the place in Barry's playing, and Barry sites Bud all the time ("Bud used to say this" etc)
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Im probably wrong here but hey that hasnt stopped me before
I learned a lot of Charle Parker tunes and solos before I stumbled onto Barry Harris. What he teaches in 5 4 3 2, half step rules, pivoting, etc, is exactly what I saw in Parkers solos. It is a very organized way to practice to get it in your playing and it certainly has worked for me.
Im not the biggest Bud fan, but when I hear him, I hear Birds language.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
Howard Rees told me Bud took Barry under his wing. Of course Barry lived with Monk for about 10 years at Nica's house (where Barry still lives).
I heard Barry say he'd be practicing at Nica's and if he played something interesting Monk who kept to his room would just stick his head out the door and look at Barry.
An interesting photo book by Nica is available called Three Wishes. Some great off the job shots of the masters.
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I’ve read a lot about Barry over the years and also about Bud. As far as I know although Bud was his biggest influence, Barry never met Bud.
He did learn to play bebop as a teenager from listening to Bud and and Bird’s records, but when Barry moved to new york (~1960) Bud already moved to Paris.
Barry went to see Bud play at the Birdland gigs in 1964 after he got back from Paris, but I don’t think Bud knew who Barry was. After that, Bud was in pretty bad shape and died in 1966.
As Alan said, Barry was very close with Monk (in his later period), and they lived together for 10 years.
I have Nica’s three wishes book, and that’s indeed a wonderful book. Looks like Barry and Nica were close as well.
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I’ve never heard Barry mention personal contact with Bud. He did play with Bird once back in Detroit though?
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He did. If you've read Francis Paudras' book, it describes his accompanying Powell back to New York after a long period in France. Barry was there in a group of top musicians waiting to welcome Powell on his arrival at Birdland. Originally Posted by tamirgal
It's also described by Paudras in the liner notes to Return to Birdland '64.
“There were two rows of men, face to face, on each side of the door. I recognized immediately many familiar faces. To the right in the front line, his face shining with joy, there was Bobby Timmons; next to him, Wynton Kelly, then Barry Harris, Kenny Dorham, Walter Davis, Walter Bishop, McCoy Tyner, Charles McPherson, Erroll Garner, Sam Jones, John Hicks, Billy Higgins, Lonnie Hillyer…there were others, but my memory fails me. Bud stopped short, and at that moment, we could hear discreet applause. Then he started walking toward the stairway, and at that precise instant, Bobby Timmons took his hand and kissed it discreetly. He was at once imitated by his neighbor and all the others with a kind of frenzied devotion… We went down the stairs escorted by this wonderful guard.”
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wow!!! thanks for that fantastic quote
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Right. I believe that I mentioned that he was there at Birdland in 1964. But he was in the audience, I don’t believe Bud knew him. Originally Posted by David B
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Yes, he “sat in” with Bird as Barry puts it. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I’ve confused myself again, and need you fellows’ help sorting something out. I’m trying to relate BH harmony and the dim6 scale with what I believe is called “tonal” harmony (I’m 100% self taught, so I’m not always sure of the nomenclature, apologies in advance).
I know BH says, “music isn’t 2-5’s”. But to my ear harmony seem still best described as tonic/rest -> sub-dominant/elevated -> dominant/tension -> tonic/resolution.
I can see how the dim6 of the tonic creates interest and motion while providing a tonic wrapper (for lack of a better word). The dim6 a P4 above does a similar job to the sub-dominant. Adds a little tension. Something has move, something has changes. But it doesn’t NEED resolution. It can resolve to the tonic or go to an even higher sense of urgency.
But here is where using dim6 my ear says, “nope. That ain’t it.” Is when I’m looking for that dominant tension from the last remaining dim6 scale. If things are moving fast, a single measure or two of the iio or biiio does the trick. They creat the tension that needs to be resolved home. But what if I want to extend the dominant tension for a measure or even more?
What does BH do? Is that where the dom/dim or domb5/dim is used? Does BH venture into the min6/dim here? To keep it straight, let’s assume a major tonality.
As usual, your help is always appreciated.
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[QUOTE=rlrhett;910506
But what if I want to extend the dominant tension for a measure or even more?
What does BH do? Is that where the dom/dim or domb5/dim is used? Does BH venture into the min6/dim here? To keep it straight, let’s assume a major tonality.
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yeah, sounds like you already know the answer. You have two 7b5 dim scales for the ii dim, and two for the biii dim. you have 4 dom dim scales for the ii dim and 4 dom dim scales for the biii dim. You have the min 6 a half step above any of the doms mentioned previously. you have the min 6th dim a 5th above any of the dominants. You have a maj6 dim a whole step below the tonic of the scale for a dom 11 sound. You have the monk moves.
these won't all work in every situation, but if something sounds great in every situation it is usually also the most boring choice.
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